Michael Cohen pleads guilty to lying to Congress about Trump real estate project in Russia

[Athanasius68]

He resigned, wasn't fired.
He was pushed out because the news broke publicly, not because the administration learned what he did. After all, they were directing it.
If there is any criminal exposure to those who directed him to pursue those sanctions, or heaven forbid directed him to cover, then it definitely hasn't been death with.
The U.S. government is actually still dealing with this for us.

Tomorrow is his sentencing memo, and since they haven't told us the details of his cooperation agreement, it's pretty exciting. So no, it hasn't been dealt with yet.

Why did Flynn lie? Did the tainted guy who everyone warned Trump about, and who Trump picked anyway, lie for no good reason and destroy his career, taint his name, and cost him a fortune, just because he's a fool?
Or was it tied to the Mueller investigation in some more substantial way?
Did Trump just want easily compromised or already comprised individuals as a way to ensure their loyalty, like the crime boss he is?

Stay tuned, it's not over yet.

It was a DC resignation. Technically he resigned, but we all know he was fired.

The testimony for which Flynn has pled guilty was elicited from Strzok who knew exactly what Flynn and the Russian ambassador had spoken about. He accepted that it wasnt a big deal. It was Mueller when he came in who decided the same statement was perjury and proceeded as he did.

 

[Athanasius68]

I'm simply showing you that the problem was not being dealt with and the administration didn't show they had any intention to deal with it until the press got wind of it. Flynn by the way is set to sentenced on December 18.

Ok-- and...? Whats that have to do with Mueller? Trump is under no obligation to heed advice from the previous administration about personel.

 

[Mach]

It was a DC resignation. Technically he resigned, but we all know he was fired.
The testimony for which Flynn has pled guilty was elicited from Strzok who knew exactly what Flynn and the Russian ambassador had spoken about. He accepted that it wasnt a big deal. It was Mueller when he came in who decided the same statement was perjury and proceeded as he did.

Why would this fall under Mueller's purview? He handed off things not related to Trump campaign Russian meddling, like Cohen.
Why did he keep Flynn?

If Mueller believed Flynn had information relevant to his case, why would he not use Flynn's felony as leverage to get him to come clean? If he did NOT try and get flynn's cooperation, if he deemed it was relevant, that would have been a failure on his part. I haven't' seen them make huge blunders, I hope that continues.

We might know more tomorrow.

 

[Atomic Kid]

It was a DC resignation. Technically he resigned, but we all know he was fired.

The testimony for which Flynn has pled guilty was elicited from Strzok who knew exactly what Flynn and the Russian ambassador had spoken about. He accepted that it wasnt a big deal. It was Mueller when he came in who decided the same statement was perjury and proceeded as he did.

LOL! That's fantasy! The FBI agents who interviewed Flynn said that they didn't observe any physical indications that indicated to them that Flynn knew that he was lying to them. Such as changes in posture, tone, inflection and eye contact. But they knew that his answers were inconsistent with what their understanding of his conversations with the Russian Ambassador were.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Ok-- and...? Whats that have to do with Mueller? Trump is under no obligation to heed advice from the previous administration about personel.

It just one more example of a long ongoing pattern of obfuscation and denial of the nature of the contacts between key members of Trump campaign and Russian officials and actors. While an incoming administration may not be under any obligation to heed the advice of the previous administration. But what it certainly would behoove them heed the warnings of the outgoing Commander in Chief about the "profound concerns" of the fitness of the President-Elect's candidate for a highly sensitive national security position because Obama certainly was in a position to know the reasons why he would have such misgivings about Mr Flynn. Who knows? Maybe if Trump had heeded President Obama's advice perhaps the events that led to Comey's firing wouldn't have happened and there wouldn't have been a special counsel appointed.

 

[Exactice]

Mueller is not going to come forward having accusations and punishment without evidence. That just won't happen.

Sure that makes sense. YET It seems that those accusation NOR punishments, do NOT align with a Russian Collusion as there currently is NO predicate of a crime committed.

ALL current indictments are centered around lying to the FBI as well as Financial Crimes NOT tied to Russians.

Did we need a special council for this or could any DOJ prosecutor have done the same job? I though the special Prosecutor was intended to be a protected entity form the DOJ so they could fair investigate. Currently there has BEEN free reign to investigate BUT nothing in actual Ties to Russians.

SO Let me ask you up front. If Mueller has ZERO accusations and Punishments in relation to Russian collusion. Zero. Now. Will you feel that the initiation of a special council was warranted? (SPECULATION of Course) Or would you be concerned that an accusation of collusion with NO factual basis is OK for a political opponent (Not HRC only media, and any political opponent) To be able to so at anytime.

So the NEXT time a Democrat is elected. WE can through an accusation out with ZERO crime committed to initiate a Special council to have FREE reign on all parties related and to their personal backgrounds.?

 

[Exactice]

That's immaterial.

Fraud is not (necessarily) the point. Possible conflict of interest is.

Again. For transparency, so prospective voters can make an informed decision as to whether a prospective candidate has possible conflicts of interest.

Thats immaterial? I dont get the correlation as my point was the GOVERNMENT has them just because the Public cant see it, The Government can ultimately charge the president with financial crimes.

Fraud in my mind includes conflicts of interest, Sorry... That was a generic blanket term.


Transparency? Lets be Realistic for one second. MOST that voted for Trump knew and accept him as a SCUMBAG. I highly doubt him lying about his taxes in numbers (not criminal lying) Would change much.

He said he worth 3 billion but only worth a billion hell $100million would NOT change my mind on my vote. Same with how much taxes he actually pays. If its NOT illegal then blame those that set the laws of the land. Not trump for being smart enough to pay the least amount of taxes. AS WE KNOW all Upper echelon people are doing the same Its not exclusive to Trump.

I did NOT vote in any way shape of form based on Trumps net worth and how much taxes he actually paid because my assumption is the Federal Government has the responsibility to charge Trump for any Tax evasion. So if he has not been charged for the last 60+ years..... I will vote base on his Policies he plans to enforce.

 

[Exactice]

Cohen has already pleaded guilty. Manafort has been convicted of several counts and acknowledged his wrong doing in the charges yet outstanding in the deal he cut with Mueller. Which he violated. So he's definitely headed to prison for several years. Cohen I think will be sentenced to some time in prison as well.

Yes!.... Im GLAD, criminals SHOULD go to jail. Those that VIOLATED the LAW should go to jail?

Cheryl Mills, Co-Witness, Immunity, AT HRC side during the FBI interview acting as her attorney? HOW does that work?
Louis Lerner Confirmed to Target 501C3's relating to a political party. Pleads the 5th no charges.
AG lynch, Tarmac meeting. (Not a crime), Not choosing to prosecute, (not a crime) yet her bias seems very high?

I dont really want to play the blame game cause it does go to political bias. BUT equal justice...... BOTH sides... Does IT not seem unbalanced right now? I mean honestly in your heart to heart, you dont feel that TRUMP as a Whole from raids on attorney's offices and Accountants To all these people charged with lying.... ALL one sided justices system? It may be a Republican Appointed justice system.

BUT I hope to see when Trump is out.....equal justice will happen with the next duly elected President?

 

[Mach]

SO Let me ask you up front. If Mueller has ZERO accusations and Punishments in relation to Russian collusion. Zero. Now. Will you feel that the initiation of a special council was warranted? (SPECULATION of Course) Or would you be concerned that an accusation of collusion with NO factual basis is OK for a political opponent (Not HRC only media, and any political opponent) To be able to so at anytime.

Warranted.

Also, the Special Counsel document is not solely "Russian collusion". Why are you acting like it is, when factually it's not?
Why Exactice? Why lie about this? Why misrepresent it? Do you think Trump defenders who continually get basic facts wrong, deny reality, and otherwise lie/mislead, should have any reputation for which to expect people to take them seriously?

So the NEXT time a Democrat is elected. WE can through an accusation out with ZERO crime committed to initiate a Special council to have FREE reign on all parties related and to their personal backgrounds.?

Not likely.

You seem to be confused about the nature of crimes. If it appears someone committed a crime, you investigate.

If it turns out you can't find an more good evidence they did, or investigation turns up non-criminal explanations for the evidence, you don't indict.
If it turns out they likely did, but you can't get quite enough evidence to prosecute, you don't indict.
If you find enough you feel can be prosecuted, you indict.

You seem to feel that only investigations where the outcome is a forgone conclusion, is warranted. That's absurd. Stop.

 

[Exactice]

Well, considering that we have a former national security advisor who lied and plead guilty to lying about discussing sanctions with a russian, I'd say I have a pretty good idea regarding what the russians want. The congress has been able to stop Trump from going that far, but if the investigations weren't going on I'd guarantee you that Trump would have already lifted the sanctions from under Obama, repealed the magnitsky act etc, etc. Not to mention it's a very big deal for Putin to have blackmail info on the POTUS. Putin knows that Trump was negotiating a Trump Tower Moscow while he was lying to americans about it. It's something he could have used anytime. To release the truth and the contacts and the communications that shows he was lying if he didn't get what he wants. The russians are smart about this stuff. The idea that the russians deal in "You get X, we get X" is so far away from what they really do.

Also, bragging about Trump passing sanctions that he was forced to pass (because the senate passed them by a unanimous vote i I remember correctly), that isn't a check in the presidents favor. He signed them reluctantly and complained about doing so. Hell, Trump has trashed america to make Russia seem better. "You think were so innocent?"

Look at your list. The only reason we bombed Russian mercs is because they were marching on our guys and shooting at them. Sanctions are not Trumps idea, and he wants to get rid of them. The only thing you can attribute to him is that he complained about Germany getting a russian oil pipeline. As if that means anything.

I'm not sure how much Putin spent on getting Trump elected, or gave to him via banks as loans for his business over the years, but I know that Putin would gladly do it again just to get a president who openly trashes america, openly praises how Putin is strong, openly trashes our intelligence service and acts as though Putin is to be trusted over them etc.

OK So with all you just stated.

Flynn is supposedly not sure if he "Lied" (and lying has to show intent to deceive, you know the same thing Corsi is currently going through) Flynn was recorded due to foreign surveillance of the Ambassador. Stupid and He will pay the price.... BUT oddly the potential NSA director talking about sanctions...heck a 3 start General... Does NOT seem nefarious, Stupid but collusion?

I heard the Blackmail thing, Its been 2 years... Not a single hit of blackmail yet..... All rhetoric. The Trump Tower in Moscow, old news I knew about it when they talked about it on the campaign it is NOT ground breaking.

Currently the Heaviest of sanctions as of yet set by congress whom has the power to do so. Trump does NOT control this so It what way did Putin benefit if they had an agreement?.....

LOL 50 Tomahawks were in response to gassing their own people ...... ITs ALL over the news. dont change the story.

Finally, You have still not indicated ANYTHING that benefited Putin from Trump getting into office its been 2 years... half of his current term NOT a single move from Sanctions, bombing, financials have in a single shred benefited Russia. So if there was an agreement then I have NO idea what the point was.

I see your CNN talking points and it Par for the course.... BUT the question remains.

If Putin and Trump colluded together

1) What was the Benefit for Putin?
2) Was there factual basis of a negotiated plot by means of sanctions, money or trade (NONE) that has arose


So again if there was Collusion why? Why take the chance for NOTHING in return. And if Putin cant get anything why NOT blackmail him with the agreement now if there was an actual agreement?

 

[Atomic Kid]

Sure that makes sense. YET It seems that those accusation NOR punishments, do NOT align with a Russian Collusion as there currently is NO predicate of a crime committed.

ALL current indictments are centered around lying to the FBI as well as Financial Crimes NOT tied to Russians.

Did we need a special council for this or could any DOJ prosecutor have done the same job? I though the special Prosecutor was intended to be a protected entity form the DOJ so they could fair investigate. Currently there has BEEN free reign to investigate BUT nothing in actual Ties to Russians.

SO Let me ask you up front. If Mueller has ZERO accusations and Punishments in relation to Russian collusion. Zero. Now. Will you feel that the initiation of a special council was warranted? (SPECULATION of Course) Or would you be concerned that an accusation of collusion with NO factual basis is OK for a political opponent (Not HRC only media, and any political opponent) To be able to so at anytime.

So the NEXT time a Democrat is elected. WE can through an accusation out with ZERO crime committed to initiate a Special council to have FREE reign on all parties related and to their personal backgrounds.?

Not True. Rick Gates has been charged with conspiracy and Manafort's long time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik has been charged with obstruction and witness tampering, Richard Pinedo identity theft, 12 Russian GRU officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016, 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. Mueller's last speaking indictment indicated that there will likely be further indictments of US nationals forthcoming.

 

[SLC]

Warranted.

Also, the Special Counsel document is not solely "Russian collusion". Why are you acting like it is, when factually it's not?
Why Exactice? Why lie about this? Why misrepresent it? Do you think Trump defenders who continually get basic facts wrong, deny reality, and otherwise lie/mislead, should have any reputation for which to expect people to take them seriously?



Not likely.

You seem to be confused about the nature of crimes. If it appears someone committed a crime, you investigate.

If it turns out you can't find an more good evidence they did, or investigation turns up non-criminal explanations for the evidence, you don't indict.
If it turns out they likely did, but you can't get quite enough evidence to prosecute, you don't indict.
If you find enough you feel can be prosecuted, you indict.

You seem to feel that only investigations where the outcome is a forgone conclusion, is warranted. That's absurd. Stop.

So this investigation of Trump, exactly what crime did Trump do that started the investigation? This is an investigation in search of a crime and not a investigation of a crime. "Beria, the infamous sidekick of Stalin, who said, “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime.” . That may be OK in Russia but it should not be OK in the USA.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Yes!.... Im GLAD, criminals SHOULD go to jail. Those that VIOLATED the LAW should go to jail?

Cheryl Mills, Co-Witness, Immunity, AT HRC side during the FBI interview acting as her attorney? HOW does that work?
Louis Lerner Confirmed to Target 501C3's relating to a political party. Pleads the 5th no charges.
AG lynch, Tarmac meeting. (Not a crime), Not choosing to prosecute, (not a crime) yet her bias seems very high?

I dont really want to play the blame game cause it does go to political bias. BUT equal justice...... BOTH sides... Does IT not seem unbalanced right now? I mean honestly in your heart to heart, you dont feel that TRUMP as a Whole from raids on attorney's offices and Accountants To all these people charged with lying.... ALL one sided justices system? It may be a Republican Appointed justice system.

BUT I hope to see when Trump is out.....equal justice will happen with the next duly elected President?

Why don't you read the section I pointed out to you in the Inspector General's report so you can finally get your facts straight and we can dispense with this Hillary fixation of yours. Which really makes no sense at all since you don't appear to have any compunction over voting for a serial liar and cheat.

 

[Exactice]

Warranted.

Also, the Special Counsel document is not solely "Russian collusion". Why are you acting like it is, when factually it's not?
Why Exactice? Why lie about this? Why misrepresent it? Do you think Trump defenders who continually get basic facts wrong, deny reality, and otherwise lie/mislead, should have any reputation for which to expect people to take them seriously?

The Reason Why I bring it up is this is the PRIMARY reason. We can discuss Obstruction after the predicate of collusion is establish FIRST. So I want to go in order. They accusation of collusion was established (YES OR NO) THEN because Trump denies it every happening, People then screamed that his "actions" was obstruction. BUT if TRUMP DID NOT actually COLLUDE then the Obstruction is just a Witch hunt in my mind. IF he is guilty of Obstruction then he is guilty because he TOOK action in an inappropriate way even though he KNEW he was innocent of collusion with Russia.

Ok you just typed out EXACTLY the process I have been discussing and the concern of the 2 tier justice system.

You seem to be confused about the nature of crimes. If it appears someone committed a crime, you investigate.

If it turns out you can't find an more good evidence they did, or investigation turns up non-criminal explanations for the evidence, you don't indict.
If it turns out they likely did, but you can't get quite enough evidence to prosecute, you don't indict.
If you find enough you feel can be prosecuted, you indict.

You seem to feel that only investigations where the outcome is a forgone conclusion, is warranted. That's absurd. Stop.

Benghazi, 4 Americans died. Investigation occured.
Whoops Secretary of State found to have an unsecured unverified server - investigation continues
Verified that is was NOT approved then classified material was FOUND to transmit over this Server. Investigation continue. The DOJ should have indicted on This alone for mishandling of Classified material
Subpoena sent to HRC camp, Destruction of physical and digital evidence occurs. DOJ should have indicted as well... nothing....

All the above DOES NOT indicate guilt BUT warrants an indictment and then a Trial process.... nothing as the AG refused to prosecute.... You know thats ABSURD, and respectful dont tell me to stop.



Now Lets move to specifics.

Carter page an American Citizen is Spied upon, through a FISA, ok you know what government does some crazy stuff.. NOTHING illegal nor charges
Papadapolus hes doing 2 weeks in jail for lying... talking drunk about emails (currently investigated) No charges related to it NOR Russian Collusion.
Flynn - Plead guilt to lying about Sanctions discussion with Kislyak. No connections to Collusive NOR related charges to Russian collusion
Manafort - White Collar Financial Crimes back to 2007 NOTHING indicated or Charges related to collusion.
Gates - Same as above.

NON of the Trump Family members have been indicated (YET) again we shall see.

TRUMP has not been Indicted (YET) we shall see.


IF TRUMP is guilty obstruction THATS ON HIM for being dumb. I dont personally think they can get him for hit , but thats my opinion.

SO.... YOU stated exactly What my point is.

"If it appears someone committed a crime, you investigate"

OK what crime was committed by TRUMP? (If its obstruction) it was AFTER the fact of accusation of collusion by the TRUMP campaign.

Currently there is NOT 1 single indictment charge or crime relating to an effort or plot or collusion by TRUMP or his campaign to work together with Russians. PERIOD.....

 

[SLC]

Not True.Rick Gates has been charged with conspiracy and Manafort's long time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik has been charged with obstruction and witness tampering, Richard Pinedo identity theft, 12 Russian GRU officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016, 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. Mueller's last speaking indictment indicated that there will likely be further indictments of US nationals forthcoming.

The conspiracy charge was about Manafort and Gates conspiring to defraud the US out of tax money and was not Related to Russia.

The conspiracy charge doesn't have any direct connection to Mueller's investigation into whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russia before the 2016 US election. Rather, it is a general charge stemming from any joint effort to defraud the US and is tied to the allegations involving Manafort's and Gates' money.

More simply, it's referred to a "conspiracy" because the charges involve two or more people.

https://www.businessinsider.com/conspiracy-against-the-united-states-paul-manafort-2017-10

 

[roughdraft274]

OK So with all you just stated.

Flynn is supposedly not sure if he "Lied" (and lying has to show intent to deceive, you know the same thing Corsi is currently going through) Flynn was recorded due to foreign surveillance of the Ambassador. Stupid and He will pay the price.... BUT oddly the potential NSA director talking about sanctions...heck a 3 start General... Does NOT seem nefarious, Stupid but collusion?

Proving my point. He's a 3-star general. It wouldn't have been a big deal if he had simply said "yea, it came up, I told him not to over react regarding the sanctions and that we could look at them when the new administration takes over" and it wouldn't have been a nightmare. Instead he lied about it all the way up. Along with that, we know he was paid by Russia right before signing on with Trump and also was working with the government of Turkey while working for Trump, discussing plans of recieving 15 million bucks to plan the extradition of a US resident. This guy isn't so stupid that he'd lie for no reason. The mere suggestion that he is only lying out of stupidity is beyond outlandish. It's wishful thinking. It's simply not an option.

I heard the Blackmail thing, Its been 2 years... Not a single hit of blackmail yet..... All rhetoric. The Trump Tower in Moscow, old news I knew about it when they talked about it on the campaign it is NOT ground breaking.

No argument from you, just a "It's been this long". That's not an argument against it. We are finding out new incredibly seedy information every day. Don't act like you know that something isn't true just cause it's been a while. That's a silly argument.

Currently the Heaviest of sanctions as of yet set by congress whom has the power to do so. Trump does NOT control this so It what way did Putin benefit if they had an agreement?.....

The president often times gets to make decisions on how to enforce sanctions and who gets placed on sanctions list. And if you are a terrible president like Trump you can just act like a dictator and refuse to enforce them.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...king-intervention-putin-kremlin-a8184866.html

LOL 50 Tomahawks were in response to gassing their own people ...... ITs ALL over the news. dont change the story.

I thought you were talking about another bombing. If you are discussing the 50+ tomahawks that we dropped on a nearly empty airfield and made some craters that did nothing to deter Syria or Russia, then I'm not even sure what you're point is. You had said we dropped bombs on Russian Mercs. I'm not sure that happened in that attack. Maybe you could give a link to exactly what you're talking about.

Finally, You have still not indicated ANYTHING that benefited Putin from Trump getting into office its been 2 years... half of his current term NOT a single move from Sanctions, bombing, financials have in a single shred benefited Russia. So if there was an agreement then I have NO idea what the point was.

I see your CNN talking points and it Par for the course.... BUT the question remains.

If Putin and Trump colluded together

1) What was the Benefit for Putin?
2) Was there factual basis of a negotiated plot by means of sanctions, money or trade (NONE) that has arose


So again if there was Collusion why? Why take the chance for NOTHING in return. And if Putin cant get anything why NOT blackmail him with the agreement now if there was an actual agreement?

I think you are just refusing to see the obvious. Putin has gotten plenty in return, and we have no idea of exactly how much we just haven't uncovered yet. He's created chaos by having us elect such an incredibly dishonest person as POTUS, we've essentially handed Syria over to him, we have a president trashing NATO which is Putin's wet dream to weaken NATO, We have a president trashing our intelligence communities, saying that Putin is strong and that he trusts him etc.

I'm sure we will find in due time more and more about what Putin wanted in return. But even just having a POTUS that is in debt to him even the slightest bit would be incredibly favorable to him. My guess is that we will see Putin increase actions on Ukraine and Trump will be his lackey, explaining away these terrible actions.

 

[Atomic Kid]

So this investigation of Trump, exactly what crime did Trump do that started the investigation? This is an investigation in search of a crime and not a investigation of a crime. "Beria, the infamous sidekick of Stalin, who said, “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime.” . That may be OK in Russia but it should not be OK in the USA.

Somehow I would doubt you would be able appreciate the hilarious irony of selecting a quote from Stalin in an attempt to cast dispersion upon the legitimacy of Mueller's Russia investigation. The best conservative comedy tends to be when they're not trying to be funny.

 

[Exactice]

Not True. Rick Gates has been charged with conspiracy and Manafort's long time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik has been charged with obstruction and witness tampering, Richard Pinedo identity theft, 12 Russian GRU officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016, 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. Mueller's last speaking indictment indicated that there will likely be further indictments of US nationals forthcoming.

Fair enough!.. Sorry I guess I was focussing on the "Russian collisions"

With that gates conspiracy is tied to Manaforts white collar crimes. Nothing in relation to Russian collusion.

12 Russians NOT Americans. in affecting our elections WE all agree that the russians tried. The question is did ANY American agree or plot TOGETHER with them to do so. currently Not a single american is named.

I agree with your points. Sorry my statement was generic as At this point NO US person has been charged with plotting to collude with a Russian to affect the 2016 elections.

All US person's charged currently are facing lying, and financial crimes unrelated to a Russian Collusion .

 

[Atomic Kid]

https://www.businessinsider.com/conspiracy-against-the-united-states-paul-manafort-2017-10

Mueller charges Rich Gates with conspiracy. But it doesn't have anything to do with his investigation into the ties between Russia and the Trump campaign? A campaign in which Gates was #2 man behind Manafort. It's almost like you sit around dreaming up ways to make stupid statements.

 

[Exactice]

Why don't you read the section I pointed out to you in the Inspector General's report so you can finally get your facts straight and we can dispense with this Hillary fixation of yours. Which really makes no sense at all since you don't appear to have any compunction over voting for a serial liar and cheat.

The IG report came AFTER the incident occurs. What my concern is AT the time it occurred it seems that proper actions at that time.

Its easy to do a 20/20 hindsight report after the fact. ALSO is it STILL not under investigation? This was their report based on Strozk and Page and the concerned BIAS in the FBI.... but if I am NOT mistaken the actual handling is currently STILL under investigation by the IG and the oversight committee is still pulling Lynch and Comey to testify?

ITS NOT closed just because of the IG report release this pass summer?

MY Apologies my fixation is NOT to see HRC in Jail at this point....honestly I dont care about her anymore.... ITS THE principles I am concerned about.

1) HRC and those related GOT off free....
2) Sitting president is accused of Collusion and I have NOT seen a factual crime or predicate of a crime to indicate the accusation against him
3) Kavanaugh was accused of a Crime 30+ years ago, with no corroborated evidence, 2 other women with scathing and damaging info, have not been able to corroborate their story, one of which change it completely in which her's was the MOST egregious.


Criminals SHOULD go to jail, BE it Trump and his associates... If crimes were committed. I dont care if they are the person I voted for or NOT.


BUT if HRC gets off (AGAIN principle) IS my concern that another Democrat like here, actually get appointed , commits another crime (in which she did) And gets off. THATS not how it works. AGAIN REGARDLESS who it is.... is my point....

I just want EQUAL justice. BE it if BOTH Trump and HRC go to Jail. Does that make sense?

 

[Atomic Kid]

Fair enough!.. Sorry I guess I was focussing on the "Russian collisions"

With that gates conspiracy is tied to Manaforts white collar crimes. Nothing in relation to Russian collusion.

12 Russians NOT Americans. in affecting our elections WE all agree that the russians tried. The question is did ANY American agree or plot TOGETHER with them to do so. currently Not a single american is named.

I agree with your points. Sorry my statement was generic as At this point NO US person has been charged with plotting to collude with a Russian to affect the 2016 elections.

All US person's charged currently are facing lying, and financial crimes unrelated to a Russian Collusion .

Of course he wouldn't name any Americans yet if he intends to do so. It only makes sense that he would keep that for the final stages of his investigation as that would be the most sensitive part of it. Because if and when he indicts Americans for conspiracy depending on whom it is he indicts all hell could break loose.

 

[Exactice]

Proving my point.....

Lots of stuff! Thanks! This is being productive!


Im going to to "argue" context. Its come up a lot about mis-remembering stuff. Corsi the other day said it. Im not a tape recorder that you can push a button and remember everything.

While this is NO way an excuse.....just an opinion. The prosecutor has the specified situation in mind to "trap" anyone. Especially when the have surveillance on that specific conversation. In now way would I be "perfect" in memory to remember heck meeting last week.

Also If it was so egregious or criminal why was he NOT charged with discussing sanctions? because discussing I dont think is illegal. He (forgetting) or LYING about it is?


The Blackmail thing is not really an argument sorry... just a statement. The said the same about Flynn but he was monitored anyways so its NOT like they would not have known. So what does PUTIN currently have against TRUMP. As right now Trump won. SO if there was a plot. Then Trump had to agree to something? IF he did why has he not implemented it and why has PUTIN NOT blackmailed him to do so now?

You are absolutely right about the sanction thing.... so this is the double edge sword against us both. DID or Did NOT Trump have anything to do with heavy sanctions against Russia? Can we call this a wash?

There was 2 incidents. the First one though was OF specific response to the Gassing? The second did in fact kill Russian mercenaries . Point being he could have chose to do nothing? But he did something? In relation to Syria and Russian Efforts even though it was a dead base? yes or no?

I am not refusing the obvious I am not seeing it period?

Putin has gotten plenty????
1) He created chaos YES he did. Having us elected Trump Putin had NO way affected my vote? I doubt he affected the other 49% + Majority Electorate vote? He was effective in creating discourse YES.
2) So now Syria is Trump's issue? Not that its been going on since the bush administration then well in to the development of the ISIS stronghold during the Obama Admin, its ALL Trump? TRUMP can take some responsibility... but its equal all administrations.


Your statements seem to indicate that there was a PLOT.... How do you know this? You seem to indicate there is more? I mean seriously Event he mainstream media cant come up with that narrative.


Can I ask. will you accept Mueller finds ... if NOTHING is found for collusion? (Just curious?)

 

[Exactice]

Of course he wouldn't name any Americans yet if he intends to do so. It only makes sense that he would keep that for the final stages of his investigation as that would be the most sensitive part of it. Because if and when he indicts Americans for conspiracy depending on whom it is he indicts all hell could break loose.

Totally Fair.....

Now just an opinion or could it be.... that there is NO Americans that willfully cooperated as well?

I mean presumption of innocence. I want to believe AMERICANs would NOT betray their country.... thats just me.... But things to seem to align to indicate a ploy or plot? I know people hate TRUMP, HATE away... But to implicate that we are willing to give up American to Russia like that? Seems grossly over played??


So YES we shall see..... I WANT justice.... I do... If Trump goes to Jail so be it...... But it has to be fair justice... period......

 

[poweRob]

Sure that makes sense. YET It seems that those accusation NOR punishments, do NOT align with a Russian Collusion as there currently is NO predicate of a crime committed.

ALL current indictments are centered around lying to the FBI as well as Financial Crimes NOT tied to Russians.

Did we need a special council for this or could any DOJ prosecutor have done the same job? I though the special Prosecutor was intended to be a protected entity form the DOJ so they could fair investigate. Currently there has BEEN free reign to investigate BUT nothing in actual Ties to Russians.

SO Let me ask you up front. If Mueller has ZERO accusations and Punishments in relation to Russian collusion. Zero. Now. Will you feel that the initiation of a special council was warranted? (SPECULATION of Course) Or would you be concerned that an accusation of collusion with NO factual basis is OK for a political opponent (Not HRC only media, and any political opponent) To be able to so at anytime.

So the NEXT time a Democrat is elected. WE can through an accusation out with ZERO crime committed to initiate a Special council to have FREE reign on all parties related and to their personal backgrounds.?

It's an investigation. That's just how it works. You can't expect end results of an investigation in the middle of the investigation. I know repubs like to keep bleating... "they are all process crimes". That's because the process is the investigation that is ongoing and people are trying to thwart the process. That inandof itself looks extremely bad which is where a lot of the speculation comes from.

Just don't expect the end results before the end. It's kind of silly to.

 

[Mach]

The Reason Why I bring it up is this is the PRIMARY reason. We can discuss Obstruction after the predicate of collusion is establish FIRST.

I don't follow. Obstruction is obstruction. Either it occurred sufficient to warrant indictment, or not.

Specifically it doesn't matter whatsoever why he obstructed, as long as he is evidenced to have obstructed with intent. You do understand this right?
- I willfully obstructed justice - because I know I was innocent and didn't want to be investigated

Is just admission of obstruction of the investigation being conducted!

DOJ should have indicted as well... nothing....

Who told you they should have indicted? Right wing media.
1. Comey decided they shouldn't, like a buffon.
2. Lynch later agreed, no charges.
But it didn't stop there.
The IG did do a follow-up investigation, and blasted Comey, but what did the Inspector General find?
However, the IG concluded that prosecutorial decisions in the Clinton case were consistent with precedent and were not affected by bias.

So why are you still on about this? Because Right wing media keeps fanning the flames. But her emails!! But her emails!

All the above DOES NOT indicate guilt BUT warrants an indictment and then a Trial process.... nothing as the AG refused to prosecute.... You know thats ABSURD, and respectful dont tell me to stop.

I told you to stop characterization the MUELLER investigation. You're the one who changed tracks to "But Her EMails!!!!"

In direct response to your quoted line here:

If Mueller has ZERO accusations and Punishments in relation to Russian collusion. Zero. Now. Will you feel that the initiation of a special council was warranted? (SPECULATION of Course) Or would you be concerned that an accusation of collusion with NO factual basis is OK for a political opponent (Not HRC only media, and any political opponent) To be able to so at anytime.

When he did in fact discover criminal matters while under investigation, as he was explicitly charged with doing, would indicate it was improper?!?! Of course not, that's asurd.

You do understand that Special Counsel was appointed because Comey was fired by the POTUS, and it was the POTUS being investigated. This necessitated having a Special Counsel so that it could operate as independently from DOJ as legally allowed.
Special Counsel was used because they are investing the sitting president and his campaign staff!!! If they find nothing to charge Trump with....OK! How would that mean it was improper? Madness.

Papadapolus hes doing 2 weeks in jail for lying... talking drunk about emails (currently investigated) No charges related to it NOR Russian Collusion.
Flynn - Plead guilt to lying about Sanctions discussion with Kislyak. No connections to Collusive NOR related charges to Russian collusion
Manafort - White Collar Financial Crimes back to 2007 NOTHING indicated or Charges related to collusion.
Gates - Same as above.
NON of the Trump Family members have been indicated (YET) again we shall see.
TRUMP has not been Indicted (YET) we shall see.

And every one of those indicted, has to do with the special counsel investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 election. Flynn was lying about going after Russian sanctions, Manafort was at teh Trump Tower Meeting, Papadoplus was lying about Russian dirt on Hillary. All related. In every case, the got a plea deal, in some, cooperation. Cooperation can also be hidden.
Say it with me...they agreed to cooperate on the ongoing criminal investigation charged to the special counsel.

"If it appears someone committed a crime, you investigate"
OK what crime was committed by TRUMP? (If its obstruction) it was AFTER the fact of accusation of collusion by the TRUMP campaign.

I'm not seeing that you understand what we're discussing.

1. It appears crimes were committed sufficient to warrant investigation
2. The investigation has scope A, B, C, D (as detailed above).
3. While investigating, people questioned lie repeatedly, clearly, about matters related to scope A.
4. Penalty for these crimes are used to get them to cooperate, and tell the truth rather than to continue to impede the investigation.
5. The investigation is currently ongoing.

You then claim "OK, what Crime did Trump commit!?!

Whether or not Trump is evidenced to have engaged in criminal activity, will hopefully be revealed at the conclusion of the investigation. See #5.