Men not being involved in the abortion debate

[Lursa]

And the law isn't always right.

Again: the born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law.

You would have the unborn's (imagined) rights supersede those of women because you value the unborn more.

The law reflects that the value of women is more than that of the unborn. It has to be one or the other.

 

[Bucky]

Nope...all those things I listed are reasons why women get abortions...to be able to do those things for their betterment, the betterment of their families, and the betterment of society. Education, good job, not going on welfare, being able to pay rent in a safe neighborhood, etc etc. None of those are 'conveniences' in life unless you think they are...in which case I feel sorry for you and your life.

I am not here to debate wordplay. All of those things fall under the category personal inconvenience. Everybody has a say in their fate and destiny in life.

Fact: You do not need an education to be successful in life. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg etc all didn't even graduate from college
Fact: You do not need an eduction to get a good job. A lot of six figure jobs come from trade jobs which you can make 6 figures - plummer, electrician, etc..
Welfare is a bad thing? It is essentially free money. It is not that bad.
Being able to pay rent in a safe neighberhood: A lot of cheap places to rent in the United States that are safe. You just have to look.

 

[Lursa]

I am not here to debate wordplay. All of those things fall under the category personal inconvenience. Everybody has a say in their fate and destiny in life.

Fact: You do not need an education to be successful in life. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg etc all didn't even graduate from college
Fact: You do not need an eduction to get a good job. A lot of six figure jobs come from trade jobs which you can make 6 figures - plummer, electrician, etc..
Welfare is a bad thing? It is essentially free money. It is not that bad.
Being able to pay rent in a safe neighberhood: A lot of cheap places to rent in the United States that are safe. You just have to look.

No, those are the things that life is made up of. If you want to teach your kids that a good education and contributing to society are just 'conveniences,' that's your business. Again...most people value the entirety of their lives more.

And if everything in life is just a bunch of conveniences...why do you see it as so important that the unborn get them? If life is so cheap to you?

And at least those men finished high school, I even called out both college and school separately. Read better. I also called out professions AND trades...read better.

As for you just finding it acceptable...even great...that people choose welfare over responsible decisions? :lamo

yeah, I am saving that one for the future.

 

[Bucky]

Note to all anti-life advocates in this thread.

If you cannot even admit the majority of women have abortions because of a personal inconvenience, you are not objective.

Stop victimizing women. It is getting quite ridiculous.

 

[FutureIncoming]

Come on man. Why are you picking on pregnancy?

FACTS ARE FACTS. Any attempt by you to Deny Fact is just Stupid. Pregnancy is always detrimental to the health of a woman. Period. Only the degree of detriment differs from one pregnant woman to the next --sometimes she doesn't know she's pregnant until she gives birth, and sometimes the pregnancy kills her.

I can tell you several activities women engage in that are much harmful than pregnancy - which are illegal btw.

AND NONE OF THEM HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH LEGAL ABORTION.

 

[year2late]

The majority of women have abortions because it would create an inconvenience to their life. That is a fact. The second reason which is very low, is health reasons.

Bucky, pregnancy is a very real physical threat to woman. I personally still have issues related to my pregnancy and childbirth nearly 25 years ago. I was expected to have an "easy pregnancy". If I did not have a great OBGYN and such exceptional access to health care I possible would not be alive today. I ended up with several major complications and needed a surgical delivery due to fetal presentation. Most women who choose abortion are acknowledging they are not in a good position to be pregnant -poor access to health care, substandard (Medicaid)or no insurance , poor social structure, needing to work extended and/or irregular hours in order not to be homeless. Those issues make it more likely for bad outcomes if the unexpected happens. And it does happen a lot.
risk
When your wife had a baby....were your kidneys threatened? When your wife had a baby...were you at greater risk for blood clots and embolisms? When your wife had a baby did you need to face surgical and anesthesia risks?

By the way.....what is one of the leading causes of death of pregnant women? Murder.

 

[Bucky]

No, those are the things that life is made up of. If you want to teach your kids that a good education and contributing to society are just 'conveniences,' that's your business. Again...most people value the entirety of their lives more.

And if everything in life is just a bunch of conveniences...why do you see it as so important that the unborn get them? If life is so cheap to you?

This statement is a giant middle finger and attack on America.

Kind of reminds of the speech of Hillary Clinton lashing out against white women and middle America.

 

[FutureIncoming]

And the law isn't always right.

AND NEITHER ARE HUMANS ALWAYS RIGHT. One of the biggest wrong thing of many humans is to insist that more mouths-to-feed must get born into an overpopulated world. Tsk, tsk!

 

[Bucky]

Again, don't blame me.



Either Hillary Clinton is losing her damn mind or expressing the Democrats real thoughts on women.

 

[Lursa]

Note to all anti-life advocates in this thread.

If you cannot even admit the majority of women have abortions because of a personal inconvenience, you are not objective.

Stop victimizing women. It is getting quite ridiculous.

We arent anti-life, we just place more importance and value on the life of women. You cant even admit that our lives are made up of things of value...you devalue education, careers, trades, security and safety, and even personal responsibility by encouraging welfare.

 

[Lursa]

This statement is a giant middle finger and attack on America.

Kind of reminds of the speech of Hillary Clinton lashing out against white women and middle America.

And yet...you had no answer, just an attack. Because you do value life so cheaply.

Again: if life is so cheap and full of unsubstantial things...why is it so important that the unborn get that chance?

 

[Bucky]

And yet...you had no answer, just an attack. Because you do value life so cheaply.

Again: if life is so cheap and full of unsubstantial things...why is it so important that the unborn get that chance?

All I said is that you do not need the education to have a successful life and you take it as me saying life is full of unsubstantial things?

Again,

Bill Gates changed the world without graduating from college.

Jeff Bezos was born in a poor family and a father who abandoned him and became the richest man in the world changing how millions consumers shop.

 

[Lursa]

All I said is that you do not need the education to have a successful life and you take it as me saying life is full of unsubstantial things?

Again,

Bill Gates changed the world without graduating from college.

Jeff Bezos was born in a poor family and a father who abandoned him and became the richest man in the world changing how millions consumers shop.

Yes...have you lost your train of thought already? You accused women of having abortions only so they wouldnt be inconvenienced...like dropping out of high school or giving up college. Remember now? You reduced education to a 'convenience'.

Seriously, is this all getting to be too much for you?

You never answered me: would you recommend to your kids that they drop out of high school? Skip college if they were so inclined? Because they had a better chance of succeeding in life and becoming Bill Gates that way?

Go ahead....give an honest answer for a change.

 

[SirGareth]

Again: the born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law.

You would have the unborn's (imagined) rights supersede those of women because you value the unborn more.

The law reflects that the value of women is more than that of the unborn. It has to be one or the other.

If the human being in a woman's womb is simply valueless, may she go on a 9 month drunk in order to endure the pregnancy or would the state rightfully intervene to protect the infants health.

What if a woman were offered $100,000 for each 9 month "harvestable" human being to be extracted by "planned infanticide" or some similar abortion clinic.

Should she be allow to sell "her parts" with the heart still beating if the brain were surgically killed before its extraction?

 

[FutureIncoming]

https://www.thoughtco.com/peterson-verdict-special-circumstances-972784

FAIL. The Law referenced in the article is not based on Objectively Verifiable Fact. It is based on the Subjective Opinions of those who wrote the Law. Since there is a similarity between such Laws and dictionary definitions, perhaps you should read this.

ALSO, there is a distinction between what the Law says about persons, and decades worth of scientific research on the topic. This is OK because the Law (in initial form) was written long long before anyone thought to study the topic of personhood with scientific rigor. But nowadays newly-written or edited Laws tend to pay attention to relevant scientific data. This is why some folks want to legalize infanticide --because the scientific data clearly shows that no human exhibits any trace of personhood for quite a few months after birth (about 18 of them in this test). Meanwhile abortion opponents want to make the Law even more out-of-sync with the scientific data. That alone is a major reason why it probably is never going to happen. (My personal opinion is that the Law should be left right where it is, associating personhood with birth, since the "grandfathering" of many laws is widespread and accepted.)

Yoda was a rubber mask, it has no beating heart, no nervous system, no feelings, no thoughts, no future

YOU FAILED AGAIN --to read what I wrote. Yoda is a fictional character (and in some of those movies was a pure construct of computer animation). That character represents a concept that many abortion opponents need to be better-educated about: "insisting 'human=person' fails to Be Prepared for any future with non-human persons in it" (from my signature line).

 

[SirGareth]

FAIL. The Law referenced in the article is not based on Objectively Verifiable Fact. It is based on the Subjective Opinions of those who wrote the Law. Since there is a similarity between such Laws and dictionary definitions, perhaps you should read this.

Can you supply "objective verifiable fact" that you are more human than an infant emerging through its mother's birth canal?

 

[Lursa]

If the human being in a woman's womb is simply valueless, may she go on a 9 month drunk in order to endure the pregnancy or would the state rightfully intervene to protect the infants health.

Who said it was valueless?

What if a woman were offered $100,000 for each 9 month "harvestable" human being to be extracted by "planned infanticide" or some similar abortion clinic.

Sure...why does it matter how it dies? We know that abortion ends that life...and there's no need for there to be any pain with anesthesia. Not sure there's a market for that tho...not for those prices.

Should she be allow to sell "her parts" with the heart still beating if the brain were surgically killed before its extraction?

Why would that happen? Are you discussing reality or some kind of intentional torture? As long as anesthetic is administered...but nobody condones intentional cruelty.

 

[calamity]

It is the #1 reason for abortion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Admit it and the truth will set you free.

Why do you value fetuses over the rights of women? You really should answer that.

 

[FutureIncoming]

Can you supply "objective verifiable fact" that you are more human than an infant emerging through its mother's birth canal?

HUMAN-NESS IS NOT THE ISSUE. Only personhood matters. Personhood is a totally different and unrelated concept, from "human-ness" --and that statement is extremely-easily proved to be valid. I remind you of a human hydatidiform mole, which originates in an ovum-conception event, just like an ordinary human embryo, and is both 100% alive and 100% human, but not even the most vehement of abortion opponents will insist that just because it is human, a hydatidiform mole qualifies as a person and deserves rights. (And the other side of the proof-coin is the presumed existence of non-human persons --It's A Big Universe Out There-- which some folks already insist includes dolphins.)

For even more proof, look at a brain-dead adult human on full life-support. When the diagnosis of brain death is confirmed, no mistake possible, at that time a Formal Death Certificate is filled out. Remember, though, that the whole rest of that human body is still alive! Nevertheless, the scientists and the doctors and even the lawyers all agree that when the brain dies, the person dies --and the living human body doesn't matter in the slightest; it has nothing whatever to do with the concept of personhood. Well, an unborn human certainly has a human body, and some number of weeks after conception it begins to have a brain, also, but the brain is not the only thing that qualifies an entity as a person. Otherwise many ordinary animals would be declared to be persons, too! Personhood is associated with a particular quality of brainpower that dolphins can appear to match, that we expect in the future True Artificial Intelligences to match, that we expect various as-yet-unencountered extraterrestrial entities to be able to match, but which most ordinary animals measurably cannot match, and which unborn humans, with absolute certainty, also cannot match.

IN CASE YOU ARE WONDERING WHY ONLY PERSONHOOD MATTERS, see the Constitution. It and its Amendments use the word "person" throughout, and don't use the word "human" even once. Thus those documents are about "person rights", not "human rights"!

 

[year2late]

And the law isn't always right.

You can have a belief, but it still is law.

You are using incorrect terminology. Since you know it is incorrect, to pass it off as truth at this point is a lie.

All you need to say is "I believe a fetus should be the same as a human being or person". You are entitled to your own belief, but legally a fetus is not a human being or person.

Now, now....how do you give a fetus full rights without diminishing the rights of a woman - an actual person?

 

[calamity]

You can have a belief, but it still is law.

You are using incorrect terminology. Since you know it is incorrect, to pass it off as truth at this point is a lie.

All you need to say is "I believe a fetus should be the same as a human being or person". You are entitled to your own belief, but legally a fetus is not a human being or person.

Now, now....how do you give a fetus full rights without diminishing the rights of a woman - an actual person?

And, why would someone even want to?

Oh, that's right. Because those who are diminished are women. Men (some) absolutely cannot stand when women have power over something they can't control. Pretty obvious.

 

[Bucky]

You can have a belief, but it still is law.

You are using incorrect terminology. Since you know it is incorrect, to pass it off as truth at this point is a lie.

All you need to say is "I believe a fetus should be the same as a human being or person". You are entitled to your own belief, but legally a fetus is not a human being or person.

Now, now....how do you give a fetus full rights without diminishing the rights of a woman - an actual person?

And, why would someone even want to?

Oh, that's right. Because those who are diminished are women. Men (some) absolutely cannot stand when women have power over something they can't control. Pretty obvious.

And yet...you had no answer, just an attack. Because you do value life so cheaply.

Again: if life is so cheap and full of unsubstantial things...why is it so important that the unborn get that chance?

Let's be honest here.

Most people find abortion morally wrong however they justify it because of outside circumstances. The economy, personal finances, crime, quality of life etc..

Most sane women, I am assuming wouldn't have an abortion if they knew they could provide for their child, meaning finances and quality of life were not an issue.

The reason itself thus doesn't justify an abortion. If the issue is the lack of adoptions in this country, the lack of social programs for single mothers, the high cost of housing, that is a COMPLETELY different subject and doesn't justify an abortion.

There's a reason why assisted suicide is illegal. Because it morally wrong. If your depressed spouse was so depressed and told you the only way she can stop the pain is for you to kill her, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT TO KILL HER!!!!

Just as a baby. Just because a mother doesn't think she can provide a quality life for her son/daughter, THAT DOESN'T JUSTIFY AN ABORTION!

The anti-life movement is conflating two separate issues.

 

[calamity]

let's be honest here.

Most people find abortion morally wrong however they justify it because of outside circumstances. The economy, personal finances, crime, quality of life etc..

Most sane women, i am assuming wouldn't have an abortion if they knew they could provide for their child, meaning finances and quality of life were not an issue.

The reason itself thus doesn't justify an abortion. If the issue is the lack of adoptions in this country, the lack of social programs for single mothers, the high cost of housing, that is a completely different subject and doesn't justify an abortion.

There's a reason why assisted suicide is illegal. Because it morally wrong. If your depressed spouse was so depressed and told you the only way she can stop the pain is for you to kill her, that doesn't make it right to kill her!!!!

just as a baby. Just because a mother doesn't think she can provide a quality life for her son/daughter, that doesn't justify an abortion!

The anti-life movement is conflating two separate issues.

a fetus is not a baby!

 

[Lursa]

You can have a belief, but it still is law.

You are using incorrect terminology. Since you know it is incorrect, to pass it off as truth at this point is a lie.

All you need to say is "I believe a fetus should be the same as a human being or person". You are entitled to your own belief, but legally a fetus is not a human being or person.

Now, now....how do you give a fetus full rights without diminishing the rights of a woman - an actual person?

They never admit it. Even when faced with the facts.

 

[Bucky]

They never admit it. Even when faced with the facts.

You cannot even admit to the #1 reason why mothers choose to have an abortion.

It is fairly obvious but you are so entrenched in ideology it prevents you from being objective on the subject.