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Marian Doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church

tosca1 said:
If you're arguing for the perpetual virginity of Mary, these Bible passages negate that.



Matthew 1

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is,
God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.




After Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph engaged in marital sex.



Furthermore.....who were the brothers of Jesus? Who was their father if not Joseph?
Surely, you're not suggesting they have been fathered by someone else?


And yes, the Bible supports that they (Mary and Joseph) had other children!



Matthew 13

54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked.

55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
57 And they took offense at him.



Mark 6
3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?”
And they took offense at him.






QUESTION


Did Mary have other children? The RCC says no. The Bible says yes.

Whom will you trust?
Click to expand...

You misunderstand the use of the word brothers. It does not mean blood relatives. Also, just because Joseph knew Mary after Jesus birth does not mean she bore any more children. It would seem pretty easy to arrange for a god who caused her to become pregnant as a virgin to not bear any more children after that. Call it miraculous birth control. The only thing you can conclude from that is that after Jesus birth she lost her physical virginity.
 
nota bene said:
The distinction has been made between "doctrine" and "dogma."
Click to expand...

Btw, I don't know why that is an issue with my term using doctrines for the Marian doctrines.
Surely, you're not saying I'm using the term incorrectly?


Here, from a Catholic site:

Understanding Four Marian Doctrines




Obviously, they're identified and called "doctrines" by the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH for a reason.



You, and others who are now probably confused about that issue, might find this informative:




The term “doctrine” can be used generally to refer to all of the Church’s teachings.
In addition, we can say that dogma is a subset of doctrine — all dogmas are doctrines,, but not all doctrines are dogmas.


A doctrine is a teaching of the universal Church proposed as necessary for belief by the faithful.


Dogmas, properly speaking, are such teachings that are set forth to be believed as divinely revealed (Catechism, no. 88; cf. 891-892).
When differentiating from dogma, we use the term “doctrine” to signify teachings that are either definitively proposed or those that are proposed as true, but not in a definitive manner (cf. Catechism, nos. 88, 891-92).

For Catholics, there is an important difference between the teachings that we must believe, which are infallible and unchangeable (doctrine), and the rules that we must obey but which are changeable (disciplines).
Click to expand...
Difference Between Doctrine and Dogma
 
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devildavid said:
You misunderstand the use of the word brothers. It does not mean blood relatives. Also, just because Joseph knew Mary after Jesus birth does not mean she bore any more children. It would seem pretty easy to arrange for a god who caused her to become pregnant as a virgin to not bear any more children after that. Call it miraculous birth control. The only thing you can conclude from that is that after Jesus birth she lost her physical virginity.
Click to expand...
:roll:

Can you please look up the meaning of ............................PERPETUAL VIRGINITY.
 
tosca1 said:
If you're arguing for the perpetual virginity of Mary, these Bible passages negate that.



Matthew 1

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is,
God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.




After Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph engaged in marital sex.



Furthermore.....who were the brothers of Jesus? Who was their father if not Joseph?
Surely, you're not suggesting they have been fathered by someone else?


And yes, the Bible supports that they (Mary and Joseph) had other children!



Matthew 13

54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked.

55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
57 And they took offense at him.



Mark 6
3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?”
And they took offense at him.






QUESTION


Did Mary have other children? The RCC says no. The Bible says yes.

Whom will you trust?
Click to expand...

What language was the new testament written in?
 
tosca1 said:
Never mind asking - just get to the point.
Click to expand...

Well you are aware it was not English correct? I know some protestant fundamentalists seem to be wedded to the idea that only the king James Bible is completely correct. I mean if you’re gonna argue Bible with me you should probably At least have a working understanding of the original language the Bible was printed in. Or at least the New Testament. You don’t need to know it, but you should at least know enough that when you’re making accusations of heresy that you can go back and look up what different terms in the original language mean and compare them to the translation.

The books of the New Testament were written in Koine Greek: The word in Greek that translates to brother in the king James Bible, does not merely mean brother in Greek. It refers to any number of relatives including half brothers, stepbrothers and sisters, cousins, and close friends. In Greek, the scripture does not say these people are Jesus’s brothers.
 
I've yet to have my question answered...if Mary was without sin, why did she present a sin offering after the birth of Jesus?...Leviticus 12:6; Luke 2:22-24...there is not a single Bible text to support the Catholic doctrine that says that she was preserved from original sin by special grace...
 
devildavid said:
You misunderstand the use of the word brothers. It does not mean blood relatives. Also, just because Joseph knew Mary after Jesus birth does not mean she bore any more children. It would seem pretty easy to arrange for a god who caused her to become pregnant as a virgin to not bear any more children after that. Call it miraculous birth control. The only thing you can conclude from that is that after Jesus birth she lost her physical virginity.
Click to expand...

Um, no she hasn't...that is exactly what it means...Mary had other children...Jesus’ immediate family consisted of his parents, four brothers, and at least two sisters...we know this scripture is referring to fleshly relatives because of it's referral to Jesus being Mary's son...

This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him." Mark 6:3
 
Rumpel said:
If you take SOLA SCRIPTURA literally, then you may throw out 99,99 percent of Christianity.
If one condemns every detail that is not mentioned in the Bible, then there is no end of condemning.
Click to expand...

If you took Solqa Scriptua literally, one concept you would have to throw out is Sola Striptura, since it's not mentioned in the bible.
 
Elvira said:
Um, no she hasn't...that is exactly what it means...Mary had other children...Jesus’ immediate family consisted of his parents, four brothers, and at least two sisters...we know this scripture is referring to fleshly relatives because of it's referral to Jesus being Mary's son...

This is the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?” So they began to stumble because of him." Mark 6:3
Click to expand...

The Bible does not say this. Sisters and brothers is derived from the Greek work Adelphoi which refers to any number of other relatives or even non blood relatives
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The Bible does not say this. Sisters and brothers is derived from the Greek work Adelphoi which refers to any number of other relatives or even non blood relatives
Click to expand...

The context does say that, as I've already explained...
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well you are aware it was not English correct? I know some protestant fundamentalists seem to be wedded to the idea that only the king James Bible is completely correct. I mean if you’re gonna argue Bible with me you should probably At least have a working understanding of the original language the Bible was printed in. Or at least the New Testament. You don’t need to know it, but you should at least know enough that when you’re making accusations of heresy that you can go back and look up what different terms in the original language mean and compare them to the translation.

The books of the New Testament were written in Koine Greek: The word in Greek that translates to brother in the king James Bible, does not merely mean brother in Greek. It refers to any number of relatives including half brothers, stepbrothers and sisters, cousins, and close friends. In Greek, the scripture does not say these people are Jesus’s brothers.
Click to expand...

You're referring to her supposed perpetual virginity.

I gave you biblical references that negate that.
One reference indicate that Joseph and Mary had consumated their marriage AFTER the birth of Jesus.
You didn't respond to that.

I gave references to His brothers and sisters (which would be a SUPPORTING evidence of that other reference above).
Those two references give support to one another - provides consistency to my argument. You don't agree.



Now tell me.....

Where does it says in the Bible that Mary died a virgin?

Get back to me when you find it.
 
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Elvira said:
The context does say that, as I've already explained...
Click to expand...

No it does not say that,

They ask if Jesus is Mary’s son and brother of Judas, Joseph, James and Simon, but brethren in this context is brothers of the lord, also from the Greek Adelphoi.

In fact Joseph and Jame’s parents are actually identified later in the Bible, Mary, wife of Clopas (or Alphaeus these names are the same person) so two of these disciples parents are actually specifically identified as people other then Mary and Joseph in the scriptures
 
tosca1 said:
You're referring to her supposed perpetual virginity.

I gave you biblical references that negate that.
One reference indicate that Joseph and Mary had consumated their marriage AFTER the birth of Jesus.
You didn't respond to that.

I gave references to His brothers and sisters (which would be an evidence ON TOP of that other reference above). You don't agree.



Now tell me.....

Where does it says in the Bible that Mary died a virgin?
Click to expand...

No, the scripture you cited does not say Mary and Joseph engaged in relations after Jesus birth, merely that he didn’t until Jesus birth. See prepositions in both Hebrew and Koine Greek function differently then in English.

And the brothers thing is resolved, two of these brothers parents are later identified during the passion narrative.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
No it does not say that,

They ask if Jesus is Mary’s son and brother of Judas, Joseph, James and Simon, but brethren in this context is brothers of the lord, also from the Greek Adelphoi.

In fact Joseph and Jame’s parents are actually identified later in the Bible, Mary, wife of Clopas (or Alphaeus these names are the same person) so two of these disciples parents are actually specifically identified as people other then Mary and Joseph in the scriptures
Click to expand...

Wrong...different Joseph and James...

Joseph is the half brother of Jesus Christ...Mathew 13:55; Mark 6:3...

"But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord." Galatians 1:19

Although not an apostle, it was evidently this James who was an overseer of the Christian congregation at Jerusalem...Acts 12:17...and who wrote the Bible book bearing his name...James 1:1...James may have been next to Jesus in age, being the first named of Mary’s four natural-born sons...James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas...
 
Elvira said:
Wrong...different Joseph and James...

Joseph is the half brother of Jesus Christ...Mathew 13:55; Mark 6:3...

"But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord." Galatians 1:19

Although not an apostle, it was evidently this James who was an overseer of the Christian congregation at Jerusalem...Acts 12:17...and who wrote the Bible book bearing his name...James 1:1...James may have been next to Jesus in age, being the first named of Mary’s four natural-born sons...James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas...
Click to expand...

None of the scripture verses identify any of these people as children of Mary Mother of God. That is you making unsupported inferences against all evidence.

There is no evidence that early Christian communities believe any of these people were Jesus his half brothers. You are using brother in the literal English sense. The Scriptures as originally written in Greek do not mean brother. As written in Greek, the relation is Adelphoi Which can mean brother, along with about a dozen other different kinds of relations, including friends or followers that are not even related by blood. James, the brother of the Lord ‘S Parents are identified in Matthew. It absolutely is the same James.
 
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Elvira said:
I've yet to have my question answered...if Mary was without sin, why did she present a sin offering after the birth of Jesus?...Leviticus 12:6; Luke 2:22-24...there is not a single Bible text to support the Catholic doctrine that says that she was preserved from original sin by special grace...
Click to expand...

It was not a sin offering.
 
tosca1 said:
:roll:

Can you please look up the meaning of ............................PERPETUAL VIRGINITY.
Click to expand...

Why? I didn't disagree with you on that issue. The bible quote you used suggests she was not a perpetual virgin. Now how about what I disagree with you about?
 
devildavid said:
It was not a sin offering.
Click to expand...

Wrong...

When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are completed, she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting, to the priest." Leviticus 12:6

"Also, when the time came for purifying them according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, just as it is written in Jehovah’s Law: “Every firstborn male must be called holy to Jehovah.” And they offered a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of Jehovah: “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:22-24
 
Elvira said:
I've yet to have my question answered...if Mary was without sin, why did she present a sin offering after the birth of Jesus?...Leviticus 12:6; Luke 2:22-24...there is not a single Bible text to support the Catholic doctrine that says that she was preserved from original sin by special grace...
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of sin, but of cleanliness... which is different than sin.
 
Elvira said:
Already answered it with scripture...:yawn:
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No, it wasn't. You do not understand the Jewish tradition of Tumah and taharah, which is what Mary would be doing. That makes your answer false.
 
RAMOSS said:
No, it wasn't. You do not understand the Jewish tradition of Tumah and taharah, which is what Mary would be doing. That makes your answer false.
Click to expand...

Tradition has nothing to do with the truth of the Bible...:roll:
 
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