Lost in the scuffle.

[VanceMack]

But they're using guns, right? The people who kill themselves with guns, I mean.

In the US? Sure...its commonly used. In the UK, where their numbers statistically match ours, no...they commit suicide by suffocation. In Japan and Australia where their numbers statistically exceed ours, their means are poisoning and de-acceleration trauma. Or they find a train to jump in front of. Because the FACT is that people that are intent on committing suicide do so, regardless of the country they are in. Of course...the facts wont matter to you and you will insist that if it wasnt for handguns, people wouldnt commit suicide as effectively...because Americans are different from the Brits, or the Japanese, or the Aussies. Suicidal Americans, to you, ONLY die because of firearms.

 

[Bootz]

Bingo. We can't solve the problem with gun control because even if we took everyone's guns away, the real problem would still be there. Just the weapon of choice would be different. And, we're not going to take everyone's guns away anyway.

Moderate Right, i am sometimes puzzled why people engage in debate on these forums. Many times major media headlines and talking points dominate the boards. Presently in America there is a focus on guns, again. Te purpose of the OP was to start a discussion outside the parroted talking points of established interests. So few people are willing to engage in advancing the debate towards understanding of underlying problems and subsequently effective solutions. Thank you for taking part in the discussion.

 

[Lursa]

My conclusion is this. The gun debate masks the real issue of why people want to kill themselves and others. It also elicits the question are mass murderers really committing suicide?

More important than gun control is understanding why violence and suicide is on the rise.

But if we focus on other issues, how can we focus on guns? Guns are the factor in every gun-related murder, so looking at other factors seems like an extremely inefficient way of focusing on guns.

But then we wouldn't be focusing on the gun factor.

Cardinal seems fixated on obfuscation.

Actually, he seems to be demonstrating your point perfectly. You distinctly wrote that guns are not the 'cause' of people's behavior' nor the only means of harm, and yet that is all he can focus on.

It seems many people are unable to separate the different aspects of this social and political issue and just obsess futilely on one aspect.

 

[ksu_aviator]

But if we focus on other issues, how can we focus on guns? Guns are the factor in every gun-related murder, so looking at other factors seems like an extremely inefficient way of focusing on guns.

Satire?

 

[Bootz]

Actually, he seems to be demonstrating your point perfectly. You distinctly wrote that guns are not the 'cause' of people's behavior' nor the only means of harm, and yet that is all he can focus on.

It seems many people are unable to separate the different aspects of this social and political issue and just obsess futilely on one aspect.

Thank you for understanding my viewpoint.

 

[Cardinal]

In the US? Sure...its commonly used. In the UK, where their numbers statistically match ours, no...they commit suicide by suffocation. In Japan and Australia where their numbers statistically exceed ours, their means are poisoning and de-acceleration trauma. Or they find a train to jump in front of.

Guns are commonly used in suicides in which people killed themselves with guns? Yes, I would certainly imagine that to be the case. As for the other types of suicide, those are not with guns so I'm not looking at those cases.

 

[Cardinal]

Actually, he seems to be demonstrating your point perfectly. You distinctly wrote that guns are not the 'cause' of people's behavior' nor the only means of harm, and yet that is all he can focus on.

It seems many people are unable to separate the different aspects of this social and political issue and just obsess futilely on one aspect.

Yes, I will only focus on guns in a thread that deals with guns. Sorry. If you want me to address issues that are off topic, I will happily do so in threads devoted to those issues. In the meantime, guns are the factors in every death involving a gun, so I'm looking at solutions that reduce access to guns.

 

[Lursa]

Yes, I will only focus on guns in a thread that deals with guns. Sorry. If you want me to address issues that are off topic, I will happily do so in threads devoted to those issues. In the meantime, guns are the factors in every death involving a gun, so I'm looking at solutions that reduce access to guns.

There's really no need to continually reinforce the fact that you are willfully ignorant in comprehending the OP.

Rests assured, it's readily apparent. Your limited agenda and thus inability to constructively contribute to the OP is clear.

 

[Cardinal]

There's really no need to continually reinforce the fact that you are willfully ignorant in comprehending the OP.

Rests assured, it's readily apparent. Your limited agenda and thus inability to constructively contribute to the OP is clear.

It's not lost on me that you're unable to address the topic but must make it about me personally. But if ad homs are all you have left (it's not clear that you had anything else), so be it.

 

[poweRob]

Is it your belief that removing guns will cure us of wanting to kill ourselves and others?

When suicide is emotionally based... which it usually is, the simplistic impulsiveness of using a gun makes expediting the suicide much more palatable and easy. Don't you agree?

 

[Lursa]

It's not lost on me that you're unable to address the topic but must make it about me personally. But if ad homs are all you have left (it's not clear that you had anything else), so be it.

You are the poster child for the OP. I thought that was completely relevant. A perfect example of addressing the topic.

Hard not to point you out specifically.

 

[Bootz]

Yes, I will only focus on guns in a thread that deals with guns. Sorry. If you want me to address issues that are off topic, I will happily do so in threads devoted to those issues. In the meantime, guns are the factors in every death involving a gun, so I'm looking at solutions that reduce access to guns.

can someone explain to cardinal that this thread is about issues other than guns? From the OP.

My conclusion is this. The gun debate masks the real issue of why people want to kill themselves and others. It also elicits the question are mass murderers really committing suicide?

More important than gun control is understanding why violence and suicide is on the rise.


in other words talking about guns stops discussion of underlying causes.

 

[bluesmoke]

the hs was referring to the far right Huffington post. are you seriously that obtuse.

I would need clarity from you to better understand what you say. All I can say is that the Huffington Post is not far-right. More importantly, it needs to be said that you have no substantive response to what I refuted in your post.

 

[KevinKohler]

When suicide is emotionally based... which it usually is, the simplistic impulsiveness of using a gun makes expediting the suicide much more palatable and easy. Don't you agree?

I've known 2 people who have tried to kill themselves, one successful, one not. One guzzled antifreeze (unsuccessful), the other took pills.

Both had parents with guns not kept in a safe.

 

[Cardinal]

You are the poster child for the OP. I thought that was completely relevant. A perfect example of addressing the topic.

Hard not to point you out specifically.

You will point me out because you never came to this thread armed with anything but ad homs. That reflects poorly on you, not me.

In any case, guns are preferred method of use in suicide by a 51% majority, so obviously guns are the factor I will look at. Its ease of accessibility and use are clear factors, just as guns are overwhelmingly the preferred method of murder compared to non firearm weapons. So once again, I will focus my attention on guns and the ease with which they find their way into the public.

 

[Cardinal]

can someone explain to cardinal that this thread is about issues other than guns? From the OP.

My conclusion is this. The gun debate masks the real issue of why people want to kill themselves and others. It also elicits the question are mass murderers really committing suicide?

More important than gun control is understanding why violence and suicide is on the rise.


in other words talking about guns stops discussion of underlying causes.

Yes, and what I'm saying is that your OP is just another attempt to remove focus from the guns. You can of course choose to look at things that are not guns, but then you would just be pretending that guns, in both suicide and for murder, are not the preferred tools for accomplishing those things.

 

[Bootz]

I would need clarity from you to better understand what you say. All I can say is that the Huffington Post is not far-right. More importantly, it needs to be said that you have no substantive response to what I refuted in your post.

sorry, let me correct the spelling, the HA was a joke about me calling the Huffington post far right.

what did you refute?

 

[Lursa]

You will point me out because you never came to this thread armed with anything but ad homs. That reflects poorly on you, not me.

.

Facts not in evidence your Honor! :mrgreen:

Please, I have been posting profile information and suggestions on identifying males with violent potential in several threads since the FL shooting...and before. And asking what is creating them, so that we can then try and change those factors.

 

[Bootz]

Yes, and what I'm saying is that your OP is just another attempt to remove focus from the guns. You can of course choose to look at things that are not guns, but then you would just be pretending that guns, in both suicide and for murder, are not the preferred tools for accomplishing those things.

sir, you have your mind made up, so why engage in discussion. Most people realize there are multiple approaches, you do not.

 

[Cardinal]

Facts not in evidence your Honor! :mrgreen:

Please, I have been posting profile information and suggestions on identifying males with violent potential in several threads since the FL shooting...and before. And asking what is creating them, so that we can then try and change those factors.

And if you want you're allowed to think about contributing factors. It will take a multigenerational investment (which I thoroughly support, by the way), but it must be coupled with an immediate policy to reduce and slow the flow of ammunition and guns into the public. 9000 people dead per year as the result of firearm-related murders can't wait for a multigenerational effort to correct society's problems.

 

[Lursa]

And if you want you're allowed to think about contributing factors. It will take a multigenerational investment (which I thoroughly support, by the way), but it must be coupled with an immediate policy to reduce and slow the flow of ammunition and guns into the public. 9000 people dead per year as the result of firearm-related murders can't wait for a multigenerational effort to correct society's problems.

I'd be very interested in your suggestions for the bold but I dont believe that is what the OP wants. And since I've asked you before and you refused to distinguish between laws requiring 'inconvenience' and laws affecting life and death, I'm not sure it would be productive.

 

[bluesmoke]

\now that i have read your post, i wonder why you ignore the question as to the root cause of violence. Hint violence existed before gun powder.

so from my OP the section you ignored

My conclusion is this. The gun debate masks the real issue of why people want to kill themselves and others. It also elicits the question are mass murderers really committing suicide?

More important than gun control is understanding why violence and suicide is on the rise.

I wonder why you expect others to answer your question without you even making the effort of research to give an informed answer, or even a surmise, yourself. I already pointed out that your “violence…is on the rise” claim is false. Do your own homework. Go fish.

 

[jimbo]

But if we focus on other issues, how can we focus on guns? Guns are the factor in every gun-related murder, so looking at other factors seems like an extremely inefficient way of focusing on guns.

So why focus on guns? It's murder and/or suicide that should be the focus.

 

[lefty louie]

But if we focus on other issues, how can we focus on guns? Guns are the factor in every gun-related murder, so looking at other factors seems like an extremely inefficient way of focusing on guns.

But not in every murder.

If you want to claim the majority are done with guns go ahead, but when someone points out that blacks commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime in this country are we going to ban blacks?

 

[poweRob]

I've known 2 people who have tried to kill themselves, one successful, one not. One guzzled antifreeze (unsuccessful), the other took pills.

Both had parents with guns not kept in a safe.

Over arching data on gun suicides though it kind of hard to ignore. Sure many would still be hellbent on killing themselves and eventually would but as Australia shows, if you take away the simplicity of it all, it drops.