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Line crossed: Three SDNY chiefs say Trump can be indicted

Nice Lowden?:thumbs:

Thanks, I love it. Try to play it everyday. That and my old Guild NJ45 Maple 212. After 50 some years of playing, I still stink as a guitarist, but I do annoy the neighbors. :)
 
Thanks, I love it. Try to play it everyday. That and my old Guild NJ45 Maple 212. After 50 some years of playing, I still stink as a guitarist, but I do annoy the neighbors. :)

Yes, at my advanced age (66), annoying the neighbours is still fun! Around 20 years ago I bought an O12, but found it too big for me and passed it to a good friend.
 
Yes, at my advanced age (66), annoying the neighbours is still fun! Around 20 years ago I bought an O12, but found it too big for me and passed it to a good friend.

Parlor guitars can be fun, and well sized. Not as loud, but still good for annoying neighbors. :)
 
t. Truth be told, the Dems will grasp at anything to overturn the results of the 2016 election.


It appears that you are unable to grasp "truth".

No, that is a narrative the right keeps pushing, hoping that Dems are "grasping" because that characterization is a feeble attempt to belittle dems in an effort to puff themselves up.

But...

The historical dem turnout in 2018 elections demonstrates that "grasping", is an incorrect characterization. Dems winning the house is a clear signal the electorate wants a check on Trump's creeping fascism. Dems in the house are just doing what they were elected to do, to take over the house because repubs were MIA when they were in control.

As for "overturning", no, because if Trump is impeached, Pence takes over, and that does not equal "overturn".

If Trump is a criminal, and/or if he is compromised by Putin, he doesn't belong in office.

Whether the above is true, or not, will depend on the outcome of the other investigations, so we shall see.
 
It appears that you are unable to grasp "truth".

No, that is a narrative the right keeps pushing, hoping that Dems are "grasping" because that characterization is a feeble attempt to belittle dems in an effort to puff themselves up.

Sorry, but actions speak louder than words. All ya'll have done is talk about impeachment and saying the President is illegitimate since day one. No amount of denial will ever change that reality.

The historical dem turnout in 2018 elections demonstrates that "grasping", is an incorrect characterization. Dems winning the house is a clear signal the electorate wants a check on Trump's creeping fascism. Dems in the house are just doing what they were elected to do, to take over the house because repubs were MIA when they were in control.

Dems winning the House doesn't negate Trump still being in office, which ya'll continually cry about. As for fascism, how, exactly, is he being a fascist? Let's see some specific policies. In fact, he's reduced the power of various federal agencies significantly, giving more power back to states and private individuals and entities. He's been less authoritarian than multiple recent Presidents.

As for "overturning", no, because if Trump is impeached, Pence takes over, and that does not equal "overturn".

If Trump is a criminal, and/or if he is compromised by Putin, he doesn't belong in office.

Whether the above is true, or not, will depend on the outcome of the other investigations, so we shall see.

Rofl....ya'll don't think that rationally. Again, there is no denying that there's been a concerted effort to remove Trump.
 
If I were Trump, I wouldn't be dancing in the end zone just yet,




And to those who say dems "hopes have been dashed", I say this: Repubs love to say what dems want, and what they say you can bet it's framed in a way that serves their agenda.

However, truth be told ( although repubs are not into the truth) but truth be told:


Dems are focused on Trump's crimes, and 'collusion' etc, is only part of it. In fact, I've listened to many
in the media state this.

There are many investigations into Trump's business dealings, tax fraud, bank fraud, money laundering etc.

On those, the verdict is far from being in.

So, one down, 16 to go.


The SDNY is part of the DOJ, which begs to disagree...enjoy your Wet Dreams , meanwhile....
 
It appears that you are unable to grasp "truth".

No, that is a narrative the right keeps pushing, hoping that Dems are "grasping" because that characterization is a feeble attempt to belittle dems in an effort to puff themselves up.

But...

The historical dem turnout in 2018 elections demonstrates that "grasping", is an incorrect characterization. Dems winning the house is a clear signal the electorate wants a check on Trump's creeping fascism. Dems in the house are just doing what they were elected to do, to take over the house because repubs were MIA when they were in control.

As for "overturning", no, because if Trump is impeached, Pence takes over, and that does not equal "overturn".

If Trump is a criminal, and/or if he is compromised by Putin, he doesn't belong in office.

Whether the above is true, or not, will depend on the outcome of the other investigations, so we shall see.

Midterm elections often trump the majority party.

The economy if it continues will win Trump re-election, along with a new non-nuclear proliferation treaty with Russia before this term is out. Damn, the Dems didn't see the latter coming. :) Strategic planning. Trump and Putin look like heroes. :violin::slapme:
 
Part I of IV

I'm not sure what be the thesis of your remarks.

The thesis of my post to which your below remarks are a reply is:
Congress has multiple functions, able to concurrently "walk, talk, and chew gum," and oversight role is one neither more nor less important than any of the others, and Congress must perform it, and I want Congress to do so; however, I take exception with the manner in which Congress members expound on legislative matters.

It appears to me that Congress members' rhetoric on legislation mostly avails itself tonally of pathos and ethos, and that's unacceptable to me, as well as being unconducive to sagacious legislative solutioneering by driving public opinion on factors other than the endogenous terms and de-/merits of the legislation itself.​

Reading your remarks below, I can't find the thesis the mix of phenomena and observations you've noted supports. I'd like to know what be your thesis, mainly so I can consider it and respond to it. I can tell you're comparing, contrasting, illustrating, and complaining (of a sort), but I cannot tell to what rhetorical/compositional end. I also see several factual and/or contextual mischaracterizations, and their existence further confounds my analysis and comprehension of your prose/meaning.

I understand the powers and obligations of congress, and I agree focus is everything. Now the focus is on outrage rather than governance. In congress and by the public. The outrage of the week has replaced the freak of the week on TV and in the mass media, with the so called fourth estate acting as the guiding hand, when its only true responsibility is selling advertising, dollars collected base on viewership numbers. There is little glory or outrage in building sewer systems, clean water delivery, and repairing bridges. Headlines and ecocentric pseudo politicians can scream climate change but there will always be money for floods.
  • My beef is that elected (and appointed) office holders, after being elected, politic non-stop instead of politicking for about the three to five months prior to an election and otherwise use "wonky" policy expositions, rather than political rhetoric of whatever stripe, as their "marketing" message, i.e., allowing policy arguments speak for themselves.
  • Congress most certainly does focus on governance. One need only look at the legislation offered to members absolutely do focus on trying to pass palpably effectual laws. There's not much more a member can do but offer the legislation and attempt to get it voted on.
  • As for constituents, well, if one gives a damn about a given mater, read the legislation, communicate with one's representatives about it, stir up fervor for/against it in one's community, etc. As a voter, one can't sit back and say Congress members "do nothing" when the fact is they introduce a variety of "doing something" bills. Moreover, one cannot credibly complain one didn't know about "this or that" measure because the websites that expose them are daily updated.
  • Sewer, water and bridges --> I realize those are just examples you chose, but two of them fall largely in state and local jurisdiction, not Congressional. My sense in observing those examples is that you may think Congress' scope is something other than what it is.

    Yes, members can occasionally get "pork" funding for projects in their own districts, but general legislation about things like sewers and water delivery isn't in Congress' purview because, for the most part, we don't have interstate sewer and water systems. Yes, Congress can regulate interstate commerce, but not the specific operation in any given locality; that is part of state and local gov't's scope. S-109-186 of the 109th Congress illustrates the scope limit and some "pork" funding.

    The bridges, however, are within Congress' purview provided the structures in question are part of the interstate highway system. To do something about other bridges, citizens and their state/local reps need to lobby Congress for "pork" funding. Such efforts may prevail or they may not.
  • Money for floods --> I doubt there will ever be money to abate the sort of flooding climate change augurs to effect. Holland has managed to keep the North Sea at bay, but the US doesn't and won't ever have the money to do that for coastal towns and cities from MI to ME to TX, and CA to WA and along our major rivers.



    National-Geographic-If-Ice-Melted.png



(continued due to character limit)
 
Part II of IV

Jackie Kennedy gained more votes for her husband than his flowing locks. Yet none complained loud enough when his mobster father bought Chicago to finalize his election in a tight race. The Kardashian mentality is nothing new, when it comes to gaining public attention, it is only more brash and of greater concern than putting bread on the table because today bread is taken for granted because no one need be hungry in the US with a few exceptions outside everyday perceptions. No excuse for a lame congress that talks as it achieves nothing. There is good reason why congress maintains such low approval ratings, far lower than Trump's which are so well publicized.
I really don't know what your main point is in this paragraph, so I'm, as in Part I, responding only to the emboldened passage.

Because many bills introduced in Congress don't become law, it's accurate, in a manner of speaking, to say Congress achieves little.

Delegate vs. Trustee Dilemma
Many bills don't pass because members' constituents refuse to accept compromise and because voters think of politics the way one thinks of a chess game. Members of Congress thus reflect their districts/voters, which is coports well with democratic political notions.

That's all well and good except that our nation is a republic; thus representatives are also bidden to make decisions based on what they think best, and what they think best is supposed to be based on their having a more complete picture of the "forest and trees" of a matter. Indeed, divesting the citizenry of the need to be "pros" on every little matter is one of the key reasons for having a republic rather than a direct democracy. If voters were disposed to be well informed on every matter, and its relevant pragmatic and moral factors, needing a decision, they need no representatives; voters can themselves vote on bills.​

So while one can chide Congressional "gridlock," the blame for it rests again with voters. When voters demonstrate they will vote-out a representative who behaves like a trustee, which collaborating and compromising requires, representatives will tend to behave as delegates, and given the electorate's expressed intransigence and "game-play" approach to policy making and legislating, Congress isn't going to accomplish much beyond what the majority party can push through with its own members. Furthermore, taking that approach to legislating exacerbates the "winners and losers" tone and tenor, so to speak, of public policy making.

It's a nasty cycle, but the only folks who can stop it are voters. Well, even now having the ability to do so -- social media can abet that end as nothing before it could -- that's not how voters use social media. They preponderantly use it to deepen partisanship and ideological tribalism, not to increase collaborative compromise, or even to engage in substantive topically focused/germane discourse. And here we are.

(continued due to character limit)
 
Part III of IV

Still I always have hope for younger generations. AOC could have been a breath of fresh air if her idealism weren't based in the world of a spoiled naif pretending to be what she isn't, a spoiled child of privilege claiming to be of the people. Being for the people demands actual actions that meet immediate needs. She's ambition to look beyond, and neglects the everyday. Pathetic. Dormitory idealism never accomplished anything of value. Realistic solutions require work, something she really doesn't know how to do, having never hungered. Yet I see those who are young who devote their careers to truly serving others, young nurses, doctors, police officers, fire people, those who serve in our military and those who have a calling for honest religious devotion, and so on. Not just making a buck, but actually providing much needed service without the self out front.
Red:
I don't know how much of your perception of AOC, and the incongruity of her rhetoric with her personal experience, derives from your thinking she grew up a "child of privilege," but whatever part of it is based on your conception thus is unfounded.


Blue:
Just what and how many tangible/material legislative accomplishments do you expect a freshman Representative to make in three months?

She, like other freshmen members, has just barely had time to learn the House's rules, protocols and how they work, administrative and practical processes, "who's who" regarding the swarm of people who're going to help and hinder whatever undertakings she may care to pursue, the gory subject-matter details of issues about which she may want to offer a bill, etc., thus I'd be shocked to learn she's had time to even write a significant bill.

Freshmen members can talk a lot, but they just aren't in much of a position to do much of note other than vote, demand explanations of folks in the executive and judicial branches, meet a lot of folks, and talk a lot. AOC's done both. When/if she gets a chairmanship, then she'll have some power. For now, she's just a rank-and-file member, and as junior a one as can be.


Tan:
I have no idea -- well, more accurately, I have too many notions, vague ones, no less, of what you mean by it; thus I can't settle on any one of them -- what that sentence means.

(continued due to character limit)
 
Part IV of IV

The escape from mundane lives attracts many to famous for being famous, but that is a reality for a select few and not in the future of those who fantasize. Those in government must escape that mentality and govern for betterment of the nation, not their own egos. We don't need rock star governance. We the public shouldn't care that a politician appeared at a music festival, partied with Stevie Nicks backstage at geriatric rock concert featuring Fleetwood Mac, or danced all night to a borrowed theme song for a politician without permission of the composer of the song on an endless loop. Yet the mob, the public, has always been fickle. The Just Men misjudged the Mob and assassinated Caesar leading to their own destruction. Our politicians refuse to learn from history and only throw bread to the crowds, not bakeries. Once the bread is eaten, it is forgotten, and only more free loaves keep them empowered. You are right to lay blame on the public, but then leadership, real leadership can alter that equation. We have witnessed such in times of crisis, now we need it to prevent crisis we can control with the right actions. Will we recognize when it appears? I hope so, but don't know. I cannot predict the future, as hard as I try.

Orange:
What?

Julius Caesar's murder resulted from a plot hatched and orchestrated by Brutus, Cassius and Decimus and the murderous act itself joined in by a score or so of other senators. Their motivation was basically that they felt Julius was becoming too imperial (remember that at the time, Rome was a republic) and was convening a cult of personality, so to speak, that made Julius' underlings effectively superordinate relative to the senators, who also were generals in their own right.

While there's no denying Antony, Octavian and Lepidus' campaign (political and military) against the Liberatores has a measure of vengeance to it, for Antony and Octavian were both Caesar's cousins, their ultimate demise resulted not from actually assinanting Julius -- indeed, the conspirators were given amnesty for the murder -- and orchestrating a coup of sorts, but from poorly conceiving and executing it. The Liberatores, rather than killing Mark Antony too, didn't. That dude was very politically persuasive, thus powerful and he turned public sentiment (among those who mattered) against the Liberatores, who had, by then taken control of the eastern part of the Republic.


1280px-Roman-Empire-43BC.png

Antony, Lepidus and Octavian wanted to consolidate the republic under their own authority, the Second Triumvirate (Caesar's was part of the first, and his overshadowing his co-caesars by becoming dictator for life was a major part of what irked the Liberatores) and they could only do that by regaining control of the western part of the republic. That meant Brutus and Cassius had to go. That they assassinated Julius was "icing," the moral high ground, on the argument thus, in much the way "Iraqi freedom" was "icing" for Gulf War II.

The Liberatores misjudged, underestimated, frankly, Mark Antony because he wasn't beloved by many in the first place. They didn't think he, a Caesarian, could resurrect his political fortunes. As the Moirae had it, Antony and Octavian reconciled enough and together resolved to unify the republic and set Rome to empire. That's exactly what Antony did. Thus is revealed that the Liberatores didn't misjudge "the Mob," but rather Mark Antony.


Teal:
That takes cultural leadership to effect. As you noted we've had political leaders who also were cultural leaders, but not for a long time. I am hard pressed to think the polity has an appetite for such a leader now, but to be sure, Trump is something of that for the ~15M folks whom I refer to as Trumpkins, the folks who, were Trump to murder someone on 5th Ave., would yet justify his doing so and, in turn, support him.



End of post quartet.
 
It really SOUNDS an awful lot like politically driven candidates and former politicians are invested in using their office to promote a politically driven agenda. IN fact, the current, seated elected official in NY made it part of a platform. Cant help but think that they have already opened themselves up to legal challenges if they were ever stupid enough to act on it.
 
...

The escape from mundane lives attracts many to famous for being famous, but that is a reality for a select few and not in the future of those who fantasize. Those in government must escape that mentality and govern for betterment of the nation, not their own egos. We don't need rock star governance. We the public shouldn't care that a politician appeared at a music festival, partied with Stevie Nicks backstage at geriatric rock concert featuring Fleetwood Mac, or danced all night to a borrowed theme song for a politician without permission of the composer of the song on an endless loop. Yet the mob, the public, has always been fickle. The Just Men misjudged the Mob and assassinated Caesar leading to their own destruction. Our politicians refuse to learn from history and only throw bread to the crowds, not bakeries. Once the bread is eaten, it is forgotten, and only more free loaves keep them empowered. You are right to lay blame on the public, but then leadership, real leadership can alter that equation. We have witnessed such in times of crisis, now we need it to prevent crisis we can control with the right actions. Will we recognize when it appears? I hope so, but don't know. I cannot predict the future, as hard as I try.

Let me preface the following by saying I don't understand the "famous for being famous" thing, not existentially or conceptually, as it applies to Americans. I can relate to it for royals in monarchies. A prince is famous before he's born; he's born and he's still famous; he mostly does nothing for the first ~20 years of his life and he's still famous. Maybe there's some countably-small number of Americans who are like that, but there can't be that many. Americans have to do something on their own to gain their fame; it needn't always be something monumental, but it's gotta be something.

Red:
Escaping from mundanity appeals to everyone, mainly because, for the most part, literally everyone's life is mundane.

What do you when you want to escape your mundane life?

When I want to escape mine, I don't stuff I normally don't do. What I don't do is look at someone else's life to see what they're doing. Sorry, but I cannot vicariously divest my life of its mundanity. Furthermore, I happen to like much of the routine/dull stuff that happens in my daily existence. Indeed, I structured my life so I can do those things. The "boring stuff" one does all the time is the stuff of life. The escapes are just occasional diversions, but they're not what I'd want to do every day.


I wonder if you may mean something along the lines of a theme I broached in another thread (post 80). That post has escapism as an tacit theme, but I didn't go there. My thoughts when I wrote that post had to do with the "green monster" rather than the bizarre approach to self-actualization that you've depicted as folks' aiming to escape mundanity.

That notwithstanding, yes, people do need to get over their fascination with celebs, be it political, social, business, science or entertainment celebs. Once one gets off one's sorry ass and does things, one'll find one hardly has time to pay any mind to celebs. By my reckoning, the only folks who have any justification for bothering with the irrelevant things celebs do/say are folks who've reached the point of sustaining themselves sans a job.

Think to, say, the Gilded Age. The DuPonts, Astors, Mellons, Carnegies, Vanderbilts, etc. didn't have a damn thing else to do but talk about one another and other folks. Their gossip thus was how they escaped the doldrums of their own existence. These days, however, as a child and a non-working retiree one can be that way. For the remainder of one's life, almost nobody has such a dull life that they should too have time to direct their focus toward other folks' BS.

Hell, take a walk into one's own yard and turn over stones to see what's there. It's not hard to break the blase-blase of life.
 
Part II of IV


I really don't know what your main point is in this paragraph, so I'm, as in Part I, responding only to the emboldened passage.

Let's just say congress is still an abject failure justifying its low approval ratings.
 
" escape from mundane lives attracts many to famous for being famous"

The Kardashians for example. Or sports idols for the moment. And this is an everyday American pastime and obsession.
 
Wrong. No one was trying to boot Obama from office.



No one has tried to make that point. That's a strawman you set up yourself.

Now you're just making dishonest posts. You are the one who said this:

They've been trying to overturn the results of the election since day one. To say this isn't so is simply not factual. It's the entire point of the so called "resistance". Again, it doesn't matter how it's done, or the validity of it. They'll use w/e they can. They thought they had something with the Russian collusion but anyone paying attention, that wasn't blinded by outrage, knew this wasn't going to happen.

Either you lied, or you don't even understand your own claim.

If they "overturned the election results on day one" these are the only possible scenarios that would result from that:

1. Pence would take the office of POTUS - you think that's what the Democrats wanted?
2. Pence and Trump would be prohibited from taking office, and Paul Ryan would end up as President - you think that's what the Democrats wanted?
3. The win would go to the second place players, Clinton and Kaine - now you're calling that a "strawman", because why - you think the Democrats wanted Pence or Ryan to be POTUS?
4. An entirely new election would take place - you think anyone in this country is stupid enough to think that would happen?

You're the one who said they were trying to "overturn the results of the election". Not me. Not anyone else. You either lied (a strong possibility) or you don't even understand what you posted (another strong possibility).

As for your other lie, it is a fact that many Republicans opposed Obama from day one. And since you mentioned "booting him from office" (not me), you apparently don't know that many, many Republicans tried to have him removed from office. I suggest you Google "Obama impeachment efforts" to see how wrong you were even on that, which wasn't something I even said.

Stop posting like a Trump stooge. He's a buffoon, a liar and a clown. Are you trying to emulate him?
 
" escape from mundane lives attracts many to famous for being famous"

The Kardashians for example. Or sports idols for the moment. And this is an everyday American pastime and obsession.

The hysteria that the annual Oscar awards generates is another example of fame achieved for not doing very much of any substance. It's an American obsession, and to be fair not exclusively so.
 
The hysteria that the annual Oscar awards generates is another example of fame achieved for not doing very much of any substance. It's an American obsession, and to be fair not exclusively so.

All in pursuit of fun. A fellow in Europe, when I was younger and traveling there, disdainfully complained to me "All Americans want to do is have fun." I had to respond with "What is wrong about having fun?"

If in balance as part of our lives, not a damn thing wrong with having fun. I just had fun sharing breakfast with my about to be 5 year old twin grandsons who stopped by with mom before heading to preschool. Mom just had coffee, having earlier had a quick breakfast at home.
 
All in pursuit of fun. A fellow in Europe, when I was younger and traveling there, disdainfully complained to me "All Americans want to do is have fun." I had to respond with "What is wrong about having fun?"

If in balance as part of our lives, not a damn thing wrong with having fun. I just had fun sharing breakfast with my about to be 5 year old twin grandsons who stopped by with mom before heading to preschool. Mom just had coffee, having earlier had a quick breakfast at home.

I have two grandsons myself. They're great-but tiring!
 
Three guys who are no longer in any government office have nothing but their opinion. Like assholes, everyone has one. Some even stink.

But keep in mind that the SDNY follows the orders of the DOJ AG. That would be Barr. That means it's HIS opinion that matters.

Shouldn't the rule of law matter?

If Barr sees enough evidence there are credible crimes committed by Trump and/or his administration...should he not follow the law?
 
I've been watching MSNBC this morning and there is a crime. The crime is Trump. There really need be no other crime. Trump being Trump is enough of a crime.

Well, we did used to use presidents as role models. Not sure any parent wants their kid to grow up like trump.

At this point I'm waiting to see how trump blames the coming recession on democrats.
 
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