Leah Remini to tackle Jehovah's Witnesses

[veritas1]

No reaction to the post about the earthquake and zombies walking around that only Matthew noticed. The other gospel authors thought that it was too trivial to mention and no Jewish or Roman writers noticed it.

A few points. First off, if the gospels are made up, wouldn't it make sense for all four gospel writers to collaborate and get their stories straight? They would obviously know that contradictions and differences would make people question them. Now, if four people witness an event, or even get an account from an eyewitness and then later describe the event, won't there be differences in their accounts even though they may agree in the essentials? Of course we know that is true. We see it all the time where people offer differing versions of a crime, for example, or some other thing. There are always differences between how one person views an event and another person views it. So, contradictions or differences in the gospel accounts actually strengthen the argument for authenticity rather than weaken it. If they all agreed in every detail, then collaboration and probable falsification would be evident. While they may differ on some points, however, they all agree on the most important one.

Secondly, one must understand the audience to whom the writer is addressing himself. Matthew was writing primarily to a Jewish audience while the other gospel writers were more directed to Gentiles. These are references which the Jews in particular would understand here and not others. Plus, the Jews believed in bodily resurrection while the Gentiles/Greeks did not. So, they would see nothing amiss in this reference. It was difficult enough getting the Gentiles to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, much less that of many others simultaneously. Therefore, the other gospel writers omit it.

As for records, we don't know what records were made as many have not survived. They were not copied down the centuries as the gospels were. It says "holy people" were raised to life and went to the city and appeared to many. We don't know who these people were or who they appeared to. They certainly would not be people known to the Romans so we should expect no records from them. What Jews they appeared to is also unknown and any records they may have made have been lost to history. As for the "earthquake" we do not know what that entailed or how big it was. That Jerusalem has had some major and many minor earthquakes is well known. One large one is described in the OT in Isaiah, Amos and Zechariah. So, we don't know how big this was or what notice may have been taken of it.

 

[veritas1]

People have gone to their death for hale bop though.

Nope. They committed suicide which is a very different matter.

 

[zyzygy]

A few points. First off, if the gospels are made up, wouldn't it make sense for all four gospel writers to collaborate and get their stories straight? They would obviously know that contradictions and differences would make people question them. Now, if four people witness an event, or even get an account from an eyewitness and then later describe the event, won't there be differences in their accounts even though they may agree in the essentials? Of course we know that is true. We see it all the time where people offer differing versions of a crime, for example, or some other thing. There are always differences between how one person views an event and another person views it. So, contradictions or differences in the gospel accounts actually strengthen the argument for authenticity rather than weaken it. If they all agreed in every detail, then collaboration and probable falsification would be evident. While they may differ on some points, however, they all agree on the most important one.

Secondly, one must understand the audience to whom the writer is addressing himself. Matthew was writing primarily to a Jewish audience while the other gospel writers were more directed to Gentiles. These are references which the Jews in particular would understand here and not others. Plus, the Jews believed in bodily resurrection while the Gentiles/Greeks did not. So, they would see nothing amiss in this reference. It was difficult enough getting the Gentiles to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, much less that of many others simultaneously. Therefore, the other gospel writers omit it.

As for records, we don't know what records were made as many have not survived. They were not copied down the centuries as the gospels were. It says "holy people" were raised to life and went to the city and appeared to many. We don't know who these people were or who they appeared to. They certainly would not be people known to the Romans so we should expect no records from them. What Jews they appeared to is also unknown and any records they may have made have been lost to history. As for the "earthquake" we do not know what that entailed or how big it was. That Jerusalem has had some major and many minor earthquakes is well known. One large one is described in the OT in Isaiah, Amos and Zechariah. So, we don't know how big this was or what notice may have been taken of it.

Dead people rising from the grave and walking around and only one person noticed it?

 

[zyzygy]

Nope. They committed suicide which is a very different matter.

Many Christian martyrs committed suicide by refusing to recant.

 

[veritas1]

Belief with no proof, the definition of religion.

The proof is there. Were there no probability that the NT is true, I wouldn't believe it. I became an actual believer in my adulthood, not as a child. My family wasn't overly religious nor regular church goers. I studied and read and was convinced of the veracity of the NT accounts because the alternative just doesn't seem at all likely knowing what we know about human beings. So, my faith is grounded in what I believe are actual events faithfully described. You ask for proof of God and demand that He appear to you. That is going to happen. We simply don't know when. But believing only after you see is not what God requires.

 

[veritas1]

Many Christian martyrs committed suicide by refusing to recant.

That's not suicide. That would be like saying that holocaust vicitims committed suicide or victims of the Armenian genocide. Being killed for your faith is not suicide.

 

[RAMOSS]

Nope. They committed suicide which is a very different matter.

So? People die for mistaken beliefs all the time.

 

[veritas1]

Dead people rising from the grave and walking around and only one person noticed it?

Many could have noticed. They could have noted it in diaries or letters or what have you but those records no longer exist. Few ancient documents exist. Also, only the people to whom the "holy people" were known would have recognized them. We simply do not know who these people were.

 

[veritas1]

So? People die for mistaken beliefs all the time.

Do you not understand the difference between killing yourself and having someone else kill you?

 

[devildavid]

Is anybody going to their death for Elvis? Threaten them with it and see what they say then.

Your logic is faulty. Dying for a belief is not evidence of the veracity of the belief. It is only evidence of what extremes some people will go to for a belief.

 

[devildavid]

I don't even know what this means. You can accept that Jesus existed without accepting the miracles. The evidence for Him is overwhelming and no serious scholar denies that Jesus was a real person.

The evidence for the Jesus portrayed in the bible is not overwhelming.

 

[devildavid]

Of course they knew it happened. They saw the risen Christ. If Christ was not risen then they were lying. Then, they went about spreading the lie and even went to their deaths for it. You can make whatever rationalizations you like but they don't hold water. These were people just like any others. They didn't seek death. They either described what actually happened or they made it up and then died for what they made up. If you think they died for what they made up, then it would be up to you to show why that makes any sense. They would either have to all be deluded or all seeking suicide. Neither makes any sense.

They did not see the risen christ. Someone created a fictional story in which this happened. The authors of the bible were not witnesses to the risen christ.

 

[devildavid]

That's not suicide. That would be like saying that holocaust vicitims committed suicide or victims of the Armenian genocide. Being killed for your faith is not suicide.

So the holocaust is evidence that Judaism is the true faith.

 

[Daisy]

So the holocaust is evidence that Judaism is the true faith.

Not really...they died simply for who they were, for the ethnicity they born into, not for what they believed...on the other hand, JW's died for what they believed...all they had to do was renounce their faith...which many refused to do...

Jehovah's Witnesses were subjected to intense persecution under the Nazi regime. The Nazis targeted Jehovah's Witnesses because they were unwilling to accept the authority of the state, because of their international connections, and because they were strongly opposed to both war on behalf of a temporal authority and organized government in matters of conscience.

The number of Jehovah's Witnesses who died in concentration camps and prisons during the Nazi era is estimated at 1,000 Germans and 400 from other countries, including about 90 Austrians and 120 Dutch. (The non-German Jehovah's Witnesses suffered a considerably higher percentage of deaths than their German co-religionists.) In addition, about 250 German Jehovah's Witnesses were executed—mostly after being tried and convicted by military tribunals—for refusing to serve in the German military.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394

 

[devildavid]

Not really...they died simply for who they were, for the ethnicity they born into, not for what they believed...on the other hand, JW's died for what they believed...all they had to do was renounce their faith...which many refused to do...

Jehovah's Witnesses were subjected to intense persecution under the Nazi regime. The Nazis targeted Jehovah's Witnesses because they were unwilling to accept the authority of the state, because of their international connections, and because they were strongly opposed to both war on behalf of a temporal authority and organized government in matters of conscience.

The number of Jehovah's Witnesses who died in concentration camps and prisons during the Nazi era is estimated at 1,000 Germans and 400 from other countries, including about 90 Austrians and 120 Dutch. (The non-German Jehovah's Witnesses suffered a considerably higher percentage of deaths than their German co-religionists.) In addition, about 250 German Jehovah's Witnesses were executed—mostly after being tried and convicted by military tribunals—for refusing to serve in the German military.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394

Your prejudice is revealed.

 

[Daisy]

Your prejudice is revealed.

Don't care for facts, huh...

Jehovah's Witnesses endured intense persecution under the Nazi regime. Actions against the religious group and its individual members spanned the Nazi years 1933 to 1945.

Unlike Jews and Sinti and Roma ("Gypsies"), persecuted and killed by virtue of their birth, Jehovah's Witnesses had the opportunity to escape persecution and personal harm by renouncing their religious beliefs. The courage the vast majority displayed in refusing to do so, in the face of torture, maltreatment in concentration camps, and sometimes execution, won them the respect of many contemporaries.

https://www.ushmm.org/learn/student...es/jehovahs-witnesses-victims-of-the-nazi-era

 

[veritas1]

Your logic is faulty. Dying for a belief is not evidence of the veracity of the belief. It is only evidence of what extremes some people will go to for a belief.

People die for their faith either because:

1. It is true.
2. It is false and they were mistaken and/or deluded.
3. It is false and they made it up themselves.

Now, in regard to the gospels, #3 makes no sense as nobody dies for what they know is a lie of their own creation. #2 is problematic because the apostles claimed to see the risen Christ. They either did, in which case we arrive at #1 or they did not in which case they suffered some sort of mass delusion as they all kept their testimony to their deaths. So, of the three, which is the most likely? I contend that it is #1.

 

[veritas1]

So the holocaust is evidence that Judaism is the true faith.

Judaism is true as far as it goes. That, however, was not what we were discussing. We were discussing the difference between suicide and dying for your faith.

 

[zyzygy]

Many could have noticed. They could have noted it in diaries or letters or what have you but those records no longer exist. Few ancient documents exist. Also, only the people to whom the "holy people" were known would have recognized them. We simply do not know who these people were.

That's because there were no people who saw it. It didn't happen.

 

[veritas1]

That's because there were no people who saw it. It didn't happen.

You keep returning to these definitive statements as if they are facts. They are opinions. I get it, you don't believe. There's not much else to say at this point.

 

[zyzygy]

You keep returning to these definitive statements as if they are facts. They are opinions. I get it, you don't believe. There's not much else to say at this point.

If you believe that dead people got out of their graves and marched around then indeed there is not much else to say. Dead people stay dead. That's why it didn't happen.

 

[veritas1]

If you believe that dead people got out of their graves and marched around then indeed there is not much else to say. Dead people stay dead. That's why it didn't happen.

Translation: It didn't happen because I say so.

 

[zyzygy]

Translation: It didn't happen because I say so.

It didn't happen because it is impossible.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Don't care for facts, huh...

Jehovah's Witnesses endured intense persecution under the Nazi regime. Actions against the religious group and its individual members spanned the Nazi years 1933 to 1945.

Unlike Jews and Sinti and Roma ("Gypsies"), persecuted and killed by virtue of their birth, Jehovah's Witnesses had the opportunity to escape persecution and personal harm by renouncing their religious beliefs. The courage the vast majority displayed in refusing to do so, in the face of torture, maltreatment in concentration camps, and sometimes execution, won them the respect of many contemporaries.

https://www.ushmm.org/learn/student...es/jehovahs-witnesses-victims-of-the-nazi-era

Here's more:

Pledge of Allegiance
Main articles: Minersville School District v. Gobitis and West Virginia v. Barnette
Mandatory flag pledges in public schools were motivated by patriotic fervor in wartime America.[citation needed] The first known mandatory flag pledges were instituted in a number of states during the Spanish–American War. During World War I, many more states instituted mandatory flag pledges with only a few dissents recorded by the American Civil Liberties Union. It was not until World War II was drawing to a close that the practice was officially challenged in the court system.

In 1935, Rutherford proscribed flag salutes, stating them to be a form of idolatry "contrary to the Word of God."[10] That stance drew mob violence against Witnesses[clarification needed] and many children of Witnesses were expelled from public schools. The Witnesses' apparent lack of patriotism angered local authorities, the American Legion, and others, resulting in vigilante violence during World War II. Men, women, and children were injured in mob attacks.

In 1940, the case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis received publicity in a lower federal court. The US Supreme Court ruled in an 8–1 decision that a school district's interest in creating national unity was sufficient to allow them to require that students salute the flag. The Supreme Court decision resulted in a new wave of persecution of Witnesses across the nation. Lillian Gobitas later characterized the violence as "open season on Jehovah's Witnesses." The American Civil Liberties Union recorded 1488 attacks on Witnesses, in over 300 communities, between May and October 1940. Angry mobs assaulted Witnesses, destroyed their property, boycotted their businesses, and vandalized their places of worship. Less than a week after the decision, a Kingdom Hall in Kennebunk, Maine was burnt down.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_the_United_States

Good for them. Forcing a pledge to the state is unconstitutional.

 

[veritas1]

It didn't happen because it is impossible.

You don't know that, either. You only surmise that. What you see is not necessarily all there is.