• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge rejects Manafort's request to modify bail terms - The Hill today

One of the talking heads yesterday evening said Manafort will die in prison.

It seems like he's earned that kind of time. I guess he's holding out for a Trump pardon. Not sure that's a good bet, but we'll see. I'd hate to have my future as a free man dependent on the whims of a narcissist like Trump. He'll pardon Manafort if it helps Trump. If not, he'll screw Manafort and not lose any sleep.
 
That's false. He's answerable to a Trump appointee, who in turn answers to...Trump.

And I don't know why anyone would spend any time worrying about Manafort. He's a big boy, and engaged in pretty massive fraud knowing what he was doing. They've apparently got him creating fraudulent financial statements for a loan, evading millions in taxes, etc. He's earned his time in the pokey.

I have my doubts. He did this all through the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administration and nothing happened, and all was light and roses. And now, they are piling everything from jay walking to bank fraud on him. I wonder how many Mueller can make stick. Meullers problem is try as he may, Manaforte has too much money to bankrupt like he did with Flynn. Flynn was easy because he was relatively poor and was easy to roll. (and now that is falling apart).

Now it's becoming like one of Caesar's spectacles.
 
Well lets be honest here. He has every right to offer up that property for that very reason, while I don't believe there is a law expressly stating that he cannot.
This might be the judge splitting an exceedingly thin hair right here.

OK, say I've got a property worth $10 million, and it secures a loan for $10 million. If I offer the property for security for bail, what exactly am I at risk of losing if I board a plane to Moscow to avoid prosecution? $0, which is the net value of the property minus the loan that the property secures. Put in the actual numbers for the property and the loan, and that's the effective amount of the bail.

So, no, it's not splitting hairs.
 
I have my doubts. He did this all through the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administration and nothing happened, and all was light and roses. And now, they are piling everything from jay walking to bank fraud on him. I wonder how many Mueller can make stick.

The only thing that matters is did Manafort do the crimes. If you read the indictments, plural, it appears the money left a trail, the bank fraud left a trail, the tax fraud left a trail, and there is little to no guessing about what happened. Just on the bank fraud, he took financial statements that said his companies operated at a loss, converted them to Word, changed some numbers to add more than $3 million in income, converted them back to pdfs, and submitted those fraudulent statements to banks for loans. They have the emails from Manafort and Gates documenting this. Are you suggesting that's okee dokee and he shouldn't be prosecuted?

They'll have his tax returns. It's easy enough to see the income flowing to offshore accounts, then to his bank in the U.S or to lenders/sellers for property acquired in the U.S. and then to check and see if he properly reported that income on his returns when required.

Meullers problem is try as he may, Manaforte has too much money to bankrupt like he did with Flynn. Flynn was easy because he was relatively poor and was easy to roll. (and now that is falling apart).

The records I've seen indicate Manafort isn't rich, but loaded with debt, and no money coming in, with $millions on the way out in taxes, penalties, interest, fines, legal fees and more, which is why he had to try to offer up a house already pledged for ANOTHER loan as collateral for his bail application.

Now it's becoming like one of Caesar's spectacles.

You're asserting things that the evidence contradicts.
 
Last edited:
I have my doubts. He did this all through the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administration and nothing happened, and all was light and roses. And now, they are piling everything from jay walking to bank fraud on him. I wonder how many Mueller can make stick. Meullers problem is try as he may, Manaforte has too much money to bankrupt like he did with Flynn. Flynn was easy because he was relatively poor and was easy to roll. (and now that is falling apart).

Now it's becoming like one of Caesar's spectacles.

BTW, here's the indictment. Before I spent too much time defending crook Manafort, I'd at least read what the Mueller team is alleging. Lots of emails and documents specifically referred to in the indictment.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-superseding-indictment-against-manafort-and-gates

You'll also see that nearly all the fraud was involved with obtaining loans. If you're rich, do you need to defraud your lenders? Fabricate financials? Hide other loans on the same properties?
 
The only thing that matters is did Manafort do the crimes. If you read the indictments, plural, it appears the money left a trail, the bank fraud left a trail, the tax fraud left a trail, and there is little to no guessing about what happened. Just on the bank fraud, he took financial statements that said his companies operated at a loss, converted them to Word, changed some numbers to add more than $3 million in income, converted them back to pdfs, and submitted those fraudulent statements to banks for loans. They have the emails from Manafort and Gates documenting this. Are you suggesting that's okee dokee and he shouldn't be prosecuted?

They'll have his tax returns. It's easy enough to see the income flowing to offshore accounts, then to his bank in the U.S or to lenders/sellers for property acquired in the U.S. and then to check and see if he properly reported that income on his returns when required.



The records I've seen indicate Manafort isn't rich, but loaded with debt, and no money coming in, with $millions on the way out in taxes, penalties, interest, fines, legal fees and more, which is why he had to try to offer up a house already pledged for ANOTHER loan as collateral for his bail application.



You're asserting things that the evidence contradicts.

I'm wary of the big foot of government. Especially when they start laying multiple charges in the hope one will stick. BTW, I presume you know that the indictment is not the trial. The indictment is Mueller's case, then it goes to trial.
 
BTW, here's the indictment. Before I spent too much time defending crook Manafort, I'd at least read what the Mueller team is alleging. Lots of emails and documents specifically referred to in the indictment.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-superseding-indictment-against-manafort-and-gates

You'll also see that nearly all the fraud was involved with obtaining loans. If you're rich, do you need to defraud your lenders? Fabricate financials? Hide other loans on the same properties?

Why was this not important when Obama was president?

So now he has his indictment and I suspect he will time the trial to the midterms.

BTW, that is a lot of crimes for a person who surely used a CPA firm. I doubt he used Turbotax.
 
I'm wary of the big foot of government. Especially when they start laying multiple charges in the hope one will stick. BTW, I presume you know that the indictment is not the trial. The indictment is Mueller's case, then it goes to trial.

I've read the indictments. He broke a slew of laws, committed fraud on a pretty large scale. If, for example, you don't think tax laws should be enforced, if you're associated with the POTUS, then say so. Otherwise I'm unclear what your point is.

And yes, innocent until proven guilty, but that's just an evasion in this context.
 
Why was this not important when Obama was president?

It doesn't matter. Manafort was a moron and took a job that he should have known put a bullseye on his back for the press and opposition research. He became the focus of law enforcement, and investigations show that he committed a slew of crimes if the allegations in the indictment are true, and the idea that Mueller fabricated them is delusional thinking.

So now he has his indictment and I suspect he will time the trial to the midterms.

BTW, that is a lot of crimes for a person who surely used a CPA firm. I doubt he used Turbotax.

Read the indictment. If you do, you'll see multiple references to him being on record as lying to his tax preparer. They have the documents, including emails where he affirmatively engages in tax fraud by failing to declare the existence of offshore accounts and the income derived from them. The CPA asks him directly - Do you have offshore accounts. Manafort replies "no" or "none." Mueller can prove the accounts existed, with balances in the $millions. Mueller signed the multiple returns that declare under penalty of perjury that he has no offshore accounts. That's fraud on its face, and it's impossible for Manafort to argue he made a series of mistakes over years because of the repeated, affirmative lies to his tax preparer.

I think once you read the indictment - doesn't take long - you'll think twice about defending a crook like Manafort who engaged in a series of deliberate fraudulent acts, involving $10s of millions. Bottom line is unless Trump steps in with a pardon, Manafort is f'd. You'll see if you...read the indictments, plural.
 
Last edited:
It doesn't matter. Manafort was a moron and took a job that he should have known put a bullseye on his back for the press and opposition research. He became the focus of law enforcement, and investigations show that he committed a slew of crimes if the allegations in the indictment are true, and the idea that Mueller fabricated them is delusional thinking.



Read the indictment. If you do, you'll see multiple references to him being on record as lying to his tax preparer. They have the documents, including emails where he affirmatively engages in tax fraud by failing to declare the existence of offshore accounts and the income derived from them. The CPA asks him directly - Do you have offshore accounts. Manafort replies "no" or "none." Mueller can prove the accounts existed, with balances in the $millions. That's fraud on its face.

I think once you read the indictment - doesn't take long - you'll think twice about defending a crook like Manafort who engaged in a series of deliberate fraudulent acts, involving $10s of millions. Bottom line is unless Trump steps in with a pardon, Manafort is f'd. You'll see if you...read the indictments, plural.

I'm not so much as defending him as I am about not trusting the FBI and Mueller and his crew about being honest. Again, why was this no big deal from ~ 2006 until Trump got elected? How many other people are breaking the same laws and are given a pass because they are helping one party or the other, or both. You can make an honest argument that Manafort was a mistake and a fish dragged up in Mueller's net based on the lack of enforcement against other players doing the same thing.

It's a ****ty deal that we only catch a big fish because he is needed to take down the president.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and if it goes to trial what evidence is not allowed to be used - like FISA warrants based on phony information.
 
It seems like he's earned that kind of time. I guess he's holding out for a Trump pardon. Not sure that's a good bet, but we'll see. I'd hate to have my future as a free man dependent on the whims of a narcissist like Trump. He'll pardon Manafort if it helps Trump. If not, he'll screw Manafort and not lose any sleep.

I don't see Trump pardoning Manafort. Why would he? Manafort is gonna sing like a canary.
 
I'm not so much as defending him as I am about not trusting the FBI and Mueller and his crew about being honest. Again, why was this no big deal from ~ 2006 until Trump got elected? How many other people are breaking the same laws and are given a pass because they are helping one party or the other, or both. You can make an honest argument that Manafort was a mistake and a fish dragged up in Mueller's net based on the lack of enforcement against other players doing the same thing.

It's a ****ty deal that we only catch a big fish because he is needed to take down the president.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and if it goes to trial what evidence is not allowed to be used - like FISA warrants based on phony information.

OK, I'll leave it here. I don't worry about the unfairness of crooks getting caught, and prosecuted. IMO, Manafort is a big boy, sophisticated, and engaged in a massive series of frauds, and so earned every bit of the the trouble he's in now.

I've prepared tax returns for some or all of my job for about 30 years now, and my clients (as far as I know) comply with the laws and pay the taxes they owe, report all the income they earn. I've had clients I thought were trying to cheat, and we parted ways because life is too short to spend 5 minutes worrying about crooks putting my freedom or reputation at risk. Manafort knowingly committed tax fraud (among a series of serious crimes) and I have NO sympathy. Zero.

I happen to agree that it's very likely the feds ignore, turn a willingly blind eye, to massive financial fraud by the donor class. I still don't care when one or more of them are stupid enough to get caught.
 
I don't see Trump pardoning Manafort. Why would he? Manafort is gonna sing like a canary.

That's just it - so far he's not singing. ;)

And if he's not singing, I don't get the strategy here.
 
Judge rejects Manafort's request to modify bail terms | TheHill

A judge on Thursday rejected a motion from former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort to modify the terms of his bail agreement.

U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson wrote in court documents that Manafort's proposal to pledge his property in Alexandria, Va., as part of his $10 million bond was "unsatisfactory," as the property is already pledged as collateral for a loan on one of Manafort's other properties.
====================================================================================
Crook & former Trump campaign manager tries to pull a fast one by pledging property that is already committed as collateral on an outstanding loan. Poor baby. Nice try though.

Do you just not know how to format a quote here at DP? You select all the text you want to quote, then hit the little balloon button in the menu bar.
 
I don't see Trump pardoning Manafort. Why would he? Manafort is gonna sing like a canary.

why would he need to sing if tRump issues a pardon for all of his misdeeds

that pardon would allow manafort to walk around freely. something he cannot do even now
 
why would he need to sing if tRump issues a pardon for all of his misdeeds

that pardon would allow manafort to walk around freely. something he cannot do even now

There is no way to know if Trump will issue him a pardon. He has already said that he isn't going to issue a pardon to Flynn. This is Trump, though, so he could be lying through his teeth. I wouldn't put my trust in anything Trump says - especially if it involves my future.
 
Keep Hope Alive!

Read the indictment, then come back and tell me you can seriously believe that. :roll:

Again, it was not a problem until he became part of the Trump campaign. They will probably hang him and leave it to the appeals courts to decide if justice was done.

I scanned the indictment. I noticed “foreign agents”. Bill Clinton was forced to retroactively register as a foreign agent.

The unevenness of enforcement may come into play, since the reason the charges were laid so wide and so deep was he would not give Mueller what he wanted. Wouldn’t or didn’t have is the question.
 
Again, it was not a problem until he became part of the Trump campaign. They will probably hang him and leave it to the appeals courts to decide if justice was done.

And, again, that doesn't matter that he got away with it for years. That often happens! Crooks get away with crimes, till they don't. It's not a bar against prosecuting them.

I agree they'll "hang him" because he's an obvious crook. Great. Crooks should be prosecuted and jailed.

I scanned the indictment. I noticed “foreign agents”. Bill Clinton was forced to retroactively register as a foreign agent.

The unevenness of enforcement may come into play, since the reason the charges were laid so wide and so deep was he would not give Mueller what he wanted. Wouldn’t or didn’t have is the question.

You're not really interested in an honest debate on the merits of the charges against Manafort. You found a "WHATABOUTCLINTON!!!" and quit looking or commenting. The "unevenness of enforcement" doesn't matter for you and me, so why in the hell should it matter for Manafort? Either he committed the crimes or not, but there is certainly no "he did it TOO! Not FAIR to prosecute me and not him!" defense that I've ever seen in real life.

But whatever.... Keep hope alive. :roll:
 
After further review, you are right.

There is more coming out about Manafort as an agent for Ukraine. He is also well known as an political operative in the highest circles of the government, mostly through the the end of Bush 2 and through the Obama years. Being an outsider Trump didn’t know who he was dealing with until later when he cut him loose, so I don’t see much jeopardy there.

Rumor has it that there are some dangerous Ukranians that would like to have a word with him, I gather. It sounds like He was working at cross purposes between Russia and Ukraine. The Managort saga is about the triangle of the swamp: the intelligence agencies, the government, and Russia/Ukraine, of course him brokering influence.

Having said that, he is too big to not know where other bodies are buried. I wonder what else he knows about other players. It could get really interesting.
 
OK, say I've got a property worth $10 million, and it secures a loan for $10 million. If I offer the property for security for bail, what exactly am I at risk of losing if I board a plane to Moscow to avoid prosecution? $0, which is the net value of the property minus the loan that the property secures. Put in the actual numbers for the property and the loan, and that's the effective amount of the bail.

So, no, it's not splitting hairs.

Seeing as he isn't listed as a flight risk, I doubt that was the reason.
 
why would he need to sing if tRump issues a pardon for all of his misdeeds

that pardon would allow manafort to walk around freely. something he cannot do even now

While it's unwise to predict what Trump will do, two factors: the idea that the NY Attorney General can and intends to prosecute Manafort on a number of state crimes, which Trump's pardon would be useless for, and the fact that optically speaking, a pardon for Manafort would look terrible because even Republicans are able to admit that Manafort is a sleazebag of the highest order.

Obviously, using optics to predict Trump's actions isn't a historically smart maneuver, but just sayin.'

A possibly stronger motivation for Manafort keeping quiet is that he may be more afraid of Russian mobsters he owes millions of dollars to than the threat of prison time. But of course absolutely all of this is 100% speculation.
 
Manafort ****ed up royally.

The crimes of Paul Manafort happened when he was interacting with Democrats; Podesta Group. Podesta was Bill Clintons campaign manager. His brother, owns the Podesta Group. There is an incestuous connection to crime.

Fake new tries to create the illusion the crimes of Manafort happened when manafort was with Trump. The crimes happened several years before he worked for Trump, when he was involved with Democrats. Mueller is trying to pressure Manafort, to give dirt on Trump, in exchange for forgiveness of his sins with the Democrats.

Manafort is not biting, since he will be pardoned by Trump and he will have the chance to get even with the Democrats. The Podesta group has not received the same charges, as Manafort, since the fix was in. This will come back and bite the swamp.
 
The crimes of Paul Manafort happened when he was interacting with Democrats; Podesta Group. Podesta was Bill Clintons campaign manager. His brother, owns the Podesta Group. There is an incestuous connection to crime.

Fake new tries to create the illusion the crimes of Manafort happened when manafort was with Trump. The crimes happened several years before he worked for Trump, when he was involved with Democrats. Mueller is trying to pressure Manafort, to give dirt on Trump, in exchange for forgiveness of his sins with the Democrats.

Manafort is not biting, since he will be pardoned by Trump and he will have the chance to get even with the Democrats. The Podesta group has not received the same charges, as Manafort, since the fix was in. This will come back and bite the swamp.

LOLOL ^

You picked a good screen name.
 
Back
Top Bottom