Jimmy Dore tells Progressive about RussiaGate

[Redress]

You completely ignored my question, which is an understandable choice when you can't answer it. Your straw man about 'telling you what to think' needs no response, sounding like a petulant child, misrepresenting the issue. You can't make me!

I actually did answer your question, just not in the format you chose.

 

[Craig234]

I actually did answer your question, just not in the format you chose.

OK. If I ask, "what's the capitol of New Zealand", and you say "Obama sucked!", then you answered my question, just not in the format I chose.

 

[Redress]

OK. If I ask, "what's the capitol of New Zealand", and you say "Obama sucked!", then you answered my question, just not in the format I chose.

But that is nothing like what I did. I answered your question directly. The failure here is yours.

 

[Craig234]

But that is nothing like what I did. I answered your question directly.

It's like what you did.

Q: "So why are you on this forum, you don't need anyone's commentary, and like you, they don't need yours, right?"

A: "If I have access to the facts, I will form my own opinion. I may very well arrive at the same conclusion, but I do not need someone else to tell me what to think."

You did not answer the question. You can now claim you did again. That's easy to type.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I thought Trump supporters were only uniformed because of Fox brainwashing and never imagined anyone could be so vulnerable and so hungry for anything positive to Trump that they would put any credibility on unverified crap that a YouTuber planted in their consciousness. And just yesterday, republican Congressman John Ratcliff said, "Absolutely it's okay to ask a foreign government to involve themselves in our election."

There's a big problem among Trump supporters when the major news network that Trump supporters are faithful to, begins seeping in more and more flattering comments about Russia than what the reality is. Fox hosts like Tucker Carlson and Congressmen like Ted Cruz and John Kennedy are right out there in the public eye spewing pro-Russia talking points and disinformation. The right has been compromised by Russia entirely. Do we have to spell this out for them -- 'Russia = bad'

I think back 10 or 20 years and try to imagine mainstream well-known people like those I mentioned trying to insert any Russian propaganda into the mainstream consciousness of Americans and I can't fathom how any of them would get away with it.

We used to hang people who did that stuff.
It was not very long ago.

 

[Obscurity]

Trump did not collude with Russia.

Russia interfered and have been more successful than they ever imagined at dividing this country.

Thing is, I don't think the right wing is willing to accept concessions with equal concessions, and thus we are at an impasse.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

No, he has no perspective as far as I can tell. I often point out that the mindset of the Bernie supporter who would say if Bernie isn't nominated, burn it down are few in number, but Dore pretty much seems to have that mindset - as you say, sometimes helpfully pointing out things wrong with Democrats, but then getting those facts drunk and giving them a megaphone and a knife.

He seems to have trying to look like the guy who will point out Democrats' wrongs no one else will, screaming, as a schtick, his main message, and to be mostly blind to the concept of 'lesser evil', attacking anyone who actually criticizes the bigger wrongs.

I don't want to come off as trying to "Boomer-splain" things, but I have to "say the words".
Please try to understand that in my sixty-two years I've seen the difference between greater and lesser evil.
But the ones who saw just how bad the greater evil can truly get are my parents and grandparents.

That's what brought them here in the first place.
Almost a third to half the country is being taught that the other half are enemies.
It is beginning to become difficult to distinguish between what I am hearing these days and what my parents and their parents were constantly hearing in their time.

Being blind to the difference between greater and lesser evil is to be blind to evil altogether.

 

[Craig234]

I don't want to come off as trying to "Boomer-splain" things, but I have to "say the words".
Please try to understand that in my sixty-two years I've seen the difference between greater and lesser evil.
But the ones who saw just how bad the greater evil can truly get are my parents and grandparents.

That's what brought them here in the first place.
Almost a third to half the country is being taught that the other half are enemies.
It is beginning to become difficult to distinguish between what I am hearing these days and what my parents and their parents were constantly hearing in their time.

Being blind to the difference between greater and lesser evil is to be blind to evil altogether.

I think a larger part of 'greater' versus 'lesser' evils is personal evil versus group and systemic evil. trump is terrible, but he can't do what the dictator of North Korea can as much as he wants to. Hitler was horrible, but it was the group and systemic evil that let him kill tens of millions.

Things like 'culture' can be quite hard to defeat or change. Imagine what Hitler's opponents in Germany would have had to do to somehow fix the country from within? What would Americans have to do now to convince trump supporters impeachment is right? It's only the rules - impeachment exists, it can be voted on - that open the door, not convincing his supporters.

 

[danielpalos]

Trump did not collude with Russia.

Russia interfered and have been more successful than they ever imagined at dividing this country.

Thing is, I don't think the right wing is willing to accept concessions with equal concessions, and thus we are at an impasse.

How about tapes of the actual (private) conversation between Your guy and the Russian guy? Foreign policy of the United States is Public not Private.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I think some people have youtube figures as primary sources. Cenk Uyger has one of the better 'channels' and is now running for Congress, endorsed yesterday by Bernie Sanders. He was a co-founder of "Justice Democrats" which is running dozens of progressive Congressional Democrats.



It's not quite that 'Russia = bad'; I'd suggest another view is that we blew the post-Soviet relationship with Russia, leading to a massive corruption of their country, which Putin - who I've seen estimates as having $200 billion - has become effectively dictator of, and that we should oppose a lot wrong with Russia included pretty much everything Putin stands for in his opposition to western democracy, his intelligence activities to interfere with and harm western democracies, and his pursuit of restoring a Russian empire including illegal hostilities to Ukraine, but that we want good things for the Russian people and would to try to help Russia get to a better situation. But 'current Russian government = bad', ya.

The basic issue about the Republican Party's pro-Russia shift seems to be bizarrely all about trump, that because he has a corrupt relationship with Putin, and beat all other Republican candidates to become president and had high party support and gives them the presidency, they in turn do what he wants in adopting his pro-Russia positions. That seems to be all there is to it.

The documented history of Putin's rise to power begins at his post as KGB station chief during the fall of the Berlin Wall, and as witness to the collapse of the USSR.
Historians routinely point to the humiliation and later, the rage Putin felt at the West.
Thus while our initial outreach to post-Soviets wasn't well thought out, it must be mentioned that global capitalist carpetbaggers had everyone beat anyway, but more importantly, whatever good that might have come was snuffed out the moment Putin took the reins because Putin does not seek rapproachment with the liberal Western democracies, he seeks conquest of them.

 

[Craig234]

The documented history of Putin's rise to power begins at his post as KGB station chief during the fall of the Berlin Wall, and as witness to the collapse of the USSR.
Historians routinely point to the humiliation and later, the rage Putin felt at the West.
Thus while our initial outreach to post-Soviets wasn't well thought out, it must be mentioned that global capitalist carpetbaggers had everyone beat anyway, but more importantly, whatever good that might have come was snuffed out the moment Putin took the reins because Putin does not seek rapproachment with the liberal Western democracies, he seeks conquest of them.

I don't disagree with that, but Putin didn't have to be the one to take the reins. Boris Yeltsin - what is it with bad leaders named Boris, even Bullwinkle knew that - picked him.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I think a larger part of 'greater' versus 'lesser' evils is personal evil versus group and systemic evil. trump is terrible, but he can't do what the dictator of North Korea can as much as he wants to.

You mean...he can't do what Kim has done "tomorrow"?
No, of course not. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Tell me what else would prevent him, should he maintain an absolute hold on unfettered power with a compliant or vanquished and suppressed legislative body?

Hitler was horrible, but it was the group and systemic evil that let him kill tens of millions.

Understood, but consider what makes for the fertile ground that such systemic evil flourishes in.
Are we not fertilizing that soil right now with our collectively muttered "It can't happen here"?

Enough talk of the comparative grades of various slippery slopes.
Justice Potter Stewart said that while he might struggle to give a precise lexicon definition of "pornography", he said, "I know it when I see it."

Well, enough with the slopes, do we not know this systemic evil when we see it?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I don't disagree with that, but Putin didn't have to be the one to take the reins. Boris Yeltsin - what is it with bad leaders named Boris, even Bullwinkle knew that - picked him.

That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.
The reason Putin was picked is because Putin made him an offer he could not refuse.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

And just yesterday, republican Congressman John Ratcliff said, "Absolutely it's okay to ask a foreign government to involve themselves in our election."

There's a big problem among Trump supporters when the major news network that Trump supporters are faithful to, begins seeping in more and more flattering comments about Russia than what the reality is. Fox hosts like Tucker Carlson and Congressmen like Ted Cruz and John Kennedy are right out there in the public eye spewing pro-Russia talking points and disinformation. The right has been compromised by Russia entirely. Do we have to spell this out for them -- 'Russia = bad'

I think back 10 or 20 years and try to imagine mainstream well-known people like those I mentioned trying to insert any Russian propaganda into the mainstream consciousness of Americans and I can't fathom how any of them would get away with it.

I keep hearing that, technically speaking, the charge of treason is only valid during war.
That said, Russia is attacking our "ally" Ukraine.
I say that in quotes thanks to our Russian operative POTUS, of course. But Russia's interference in our elections, and the work of our Russian operatives trying to solicit pro-Russia Ukrainian oligarchs in further US election interference should RIGHTLY be interpreted as "acts of war", in my humble opinion.

Fortunately quite a few top intel leaders also have normal common sense...it doesn't take a genius to recognize acts of war.
Thus they also are of the same opinion.

So while there is no shooting war happening here, these acts are distinctly provocative, and if we had an actual POTUS instead of a Russian asset, such provocations would indeed be considered seriously.
My opinion, the treason criteria is full of holes, holes large enough for several obese Russian operatives to walk through unencumbered.
Clearly our founders and framers did not imagine the extent to which the treason envelope could be pushed, but then again they also could not imagine global air travel and electronic communications either.

If Ratcliffe's words are not treason, then it is my opinion that the definition of treason is woefully inadequate as anything other than a symbolic bit of window dressing, utterly incapable of being applied in a time of universal deceit.

I am of the opinion that, had a "Congressman Ratcliffe" uttered such a thing in the 18th Century, or 19th, he would have been summarily hanged.

 

[Craig234]

That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.
The reason Putin was picked is because Putin made him an offer he could not refuse.

Actually, it kind of is how it works. Here's some discussion on how Putin was selected, by oligarchs and Yeltsin's inner circle, thinking Putin was an amateur they could control. They didn't have to pick him, as I said.

Why did Yeltsin choose Putin as his successor? - Quora

 

[Craig234]

Well, enough with the slopes, do we not know this systemic evil when we see it?

We're not close to there, but the danger grows a lot in a trump second term. trump's incompetence and lack people who are actually loyal to him, as well as our existing culture and bureaucracy, provide protections - as I've said, trump's loyalty is an inch deep. His own handpicked operative for the Ukraine operation, Sondland, spilled the beans, after the system worked to catch him.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Actually, it kind of is how it works. Here's some discussion on how Putin was selected, by oligarchs and Yeltsin's inner circle, thinking Putin was an amateur they could control. They didn't have to pick him, as I said.

Why did Yeltsin choose Putin as his successor? - Quora

Dima Vorobiev...who is he?
He says he's a former Soviet propaganda specialist.
Jesus, it even says so in his profile.
Between 1986 and 1993 I worked at American-Russian Television, a local cable TV programming outlet servicing the Russian diaspora community in Los Angeles, located in the Panorama Magazine building at 501 Fairfax Avenue in W. Hollywood.

Don't we already have a glut of "former Soviet/Russian propaganda specialists" here at DP?
All we did at A.R.T. was recycle old Russian movies and TV shows and help new Russian immigrants find cheap food and vodka....while we covered the fall of the USSR with direct coverage from Channel 1 in Moscow as it happened, with stateside analysis on what it meant for Russian-Americans.

This is the guy I worked for, he got a cameo appearance in Rocky IV.



Here is another Dima view, published in 2018:
"Russia is not the enemy of the Western Europe. The disruptive policy of President Putin is aimed at (1) weakening the political and military dominance of the US in Europe and/or (2) full or partial acceptance by the West of the following list of Russia’s political objectives:"

• Recognition of Crimea as Russian territory
• Total freeze on expansion of NATO. No membership for Sweden, Finland, Ukraine or Georgia.
• No NATO bases in the Baltics, Poland, Czech republic and Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria. Removal of the American anti-ballistic bases in Central Europe.
• Finlandization of Georgia, Ukraine and guarantees of such arrangement for Belarus, in case it gets a pro-Western government in the future.
• Guarantees of unhindered land connection through Lithuania between the Russian heartland and the exclave of Kaliningrad. The unhindered transit through the Suwalki gap would be very useful for Russia as a gauge of the level of determination on the part of NATO in the case of a swift escalation in tensions.
• Recognition of Russia’s right to permanent military presence in the Mediterranean (through bases in Syria and possibly in Libya or other places)
• Repeal of all sanctions against Russian oligarchs, their companies and sectoral interests.

---What do WE get in exchange for all of the above ^^^ ???

"If the West won’t agree to such a new global security arrangement, the current confrontation will continue, with variations only in the level of tensions. Because of the technological gap, the Russian military-industrial complex will increasingly depend on China for high-tech components for our weapons systems. Russian economy will also be more and more streamlined to accommodate the needs of Chinese manufacturing."

This stalemate can continue for many years, unless one of the following happens:

• Unexpected massive deterioration of economy in Russia.
• ***Low-probability, high-impact catastrophe in the US or Europe that makes the West seek help from Russia
• Power shift in Russia with full revision of national policy. (Highly unlikely with President Putin still in power).

---***This second to last talking point sounds vaguely similar to the PNAC wish list for American military expansion in the pre-9/11 days.

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Dima Vorobiev...who is he?
He says he's a former Soviet propaganda specialist.
Jesus, it even says so in his profile.
Between 1986 and 1993 I worked at American-Russian Television, a local cable TV programming outlet servicing the Russian diaspora community in Los Angeles, located in the Panorama Magazine building at 501 Fairfax Avenue in W. Hollywood.

Don't we already have a glut of "former Soviet/Russian propaganda specialists" here at DP?
All we did at A.R.T. was recycle old Russian movies and TV shows and help new Russian immigrants find cheap food and vodka....while we covered the fall of the USSR with direct coverage from Channel 1 in Moscow as it happened, with stateside analysis on what it meant for Russian-Americans.

This is the guy I worked for, he got a cameo appearance in Rocky IV.

View attachment 67269934

Here is another Dima view, published in 2018:
"Russia is not the enemy of the Western Europe. The disruptive policy of President Putin is aimed at (1) weakening the political and military dominance of the US in Europe and/or (2) full or partial acceptance by the West of the following list of Russia’s political objectives:"

• Recognition of Crimea as Russian territory
• Total freeze on expansion of NATO. No membership for Sweden, Finland, Ukraine or Georgia.
• No NATO bases in the Baltics, Poland, Czech republic and Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria. Removal of the American anti-ballistic bases in Central Europe.
• Finlandization of Georgia, Ukraine and guarantees of such arrangement for Belarus, in case it gets a pro-Western government in the future.
• Guarantees of unhindered land connection through Lithuania between the Russian heartland and the exclave of Kaliningrad. The unhindered transit through the Suwalki gap would be very useful for Russia as a gauge of the level of determination on the part of NATO in the case of a swift escalation in tensions.
• Recognition of Russia’s right to permanent military presence in the Mediterranean (through bases in Syria and possibly in Libya or other places)
• Repeal of all sanctions against Russian oligarchs, their companies and sectoral interests.

---What do WE get in exchange for all of the above ^^^ ???

"If the West won’t agree to such a new global security arrangement, the current confrontation will continue, with variations only in the level of tensions. Because of the technological gap, the Russian military-industrial complex will increasingly depend on China for high-tech components for our weapons systems. Russian economy will also be more and more streamlined to accommodate the needs of Chinese manufacturing."

This stalemate can continue for many years, unless one of the following happens:

• Unexpected massive deterioration of economy in Russia.
• ***Low-probability, high-impact catastrophe in the US or Europe that makes the West seek help from Russia
• Power shift in Russia with full revision of national policy. (Highly unlikely with President Putin still in power).

---***This second to last talking point sounds vaguely similar to the PNAC wish list for American military expansion in the pre-9/11 days.

Putin is not immortal. And Murphy’s law can still apply to Russia’s plans

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Actually, it kind of is how it works. Here's some discussion on how Putin was selected, by oligarchs and Yeltsin's inner circle, thinking Putin was an amateur they could control. They didn't have to pick him, as I said.

Why did Yeltsin choose Putin as his successor? - Quora

Everything Putin did and has done since taking power has been in order to secure control over the vast swath of Russian oligarchs, and in service to them, protection for their racketeering.

If there is any mention of possible other candidates, I don't find it in any of the discussions.
Sure as **** no one mentions Medvedev.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Putin is not immortal. And Murphy’s law can still apply to Russia’s plans

Of course he's not immortal but organized crime and raw unregulated corporatism is.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

We're not close to there, but the danger grows a lot in a trump second term. trump's incompetence and lack people who are actually loyal to him, as well as our existing culture and bureaucracy, provide protections - as I've said, trump's loyalty is an inch deep. His own handpicked operative for the Ukraine operation, Sondland, spilled the beans, after the system worked to catch him.

It appears that we are currrently locked in a death match to secure our own elections right at this moment, as you read this.
Tell me what you think the result will be if that struggle is not victorious.

Without free and fair elections, what can stop the progression to pure authoritarianism?
(with continuing "help" from Mister Putin)

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Putin is not immortal. And Murphy’s law can still apply to Russia’s plans

I don't see Mister Murphy anywhere within 4000 light years of any of what Dima published in 2018.

• Recognition of Crimea as Russian territory
• Total freeze on expansion of NATO. No membership for Sweden, Finland, Ukraine or Georgia.
• No NATO bases in the Baltics, Poland, Czech republic and Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria. Removal of the American anti-ballistic bases in Central Europe.
• Finlandization of Georgia, Ukraine and guarantees of such arrangement for Belarus, in case it gets a pro-Western government in the future.
• Guarantees of unhindered land connection through Lithuania between the Russian heartland and the exclave of Kaliningrad. The unhindered transit through the Suwalki gap would be very useful for Russia as a gauge of the level of determination on the part of NATO in the case of a swift escalation in tensions.
• Recognition of Russia’s right to permanent military presence in the Mediterranean (through bases in Syria and possibly in Libya or other places)
• Repeal of all sanctions against Russian oligarchs, their companies and sectoral interests.

Far as I can tell, Putin is getting the entire shopping list and more, thanks to our obsequious and servile puppet. What are WE getting from the deal?

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Of course he's not immortal but organized crime and raw unregulated corporatism is.

And what purpose is a society that values power for powers sake?

What is the ultimate goal of corporatism beyond the accumulation of wealth and power, what point is there for it to exist?

 

[Craig234]

It appears that we are currrently locked in a death match to secure our own elections right at this moment, as you read this.
Tell me what you think the result will be if that struggle is not victorious.

Without free and fair elections, what can stop the progression to pure authoritarianism?
(with continuing "help" from Mister Putin)

There are many potential threats to elections, for a few examples, funding issues (legal and illegal), ballot stuffing/fraud, hacking, media bias, voter suppression, foreign interference, threatening/harming candidates.

The relevant ones here it seems to me - putting aside what I think are the worst harms, Republican voter suppression, money issues, and our corporate media - are foreign interference actions.

Those seem so have two main areas, with the Ukraine 'investigations' more minor and which didn't happen: hacking and social media assaults with propaganda.

It seems to me a repeat of 2016 hacking might not be possible, and the social media attack is almost certain and has already begun. But that minds are so made up in this country, that I question how much effect it threatens. The people it seems likely to influence are already trump zealots, and his opponents seem unlikely to fall for it. So I'm not sure that foreign interference really poses that much threat in 2020.

 

[Craig234]

And what purpose is a society that values power for powers sake?

What is the ultimate goal of corporatism beyond the accumulation of wealth and power, what point is there for it to exist?

You've hit upon perhaps one of the most important issues in the world today, which leads to the idea that ultimately it's going to be in the interests of the powerful to kill off a lot of people. I've seen it said as, 'for the first time in history, people have a negative economic value'. They're mouths to be fed that cost more than they produce in many cases. The implications are staggering.

I hope you were understanding that your question was rhetorical and there is a very clear purpose for that 'power for power's sake' for those who get the power.