It finally happened in my hometown

[TurtleDude]

I’m impressed. You really dug deep for that BS answer. :thumbs:

There are about 30K gun shot deaths each year. about 2/3s are suicides. that leaves about 10,000 gun shot deaths that are not intentionally self inflicted. 80% or more of murders are committed by people who cannot legally own firearms -meaning felons, fugitives, those with drug addictions or other disqualifying characteristics. So we are down to about 2000 or so gun shot deaths that are not suicides and are committed by people who are not already legally banned from possessing a firearm. Some of those are accidental. Some of those are justifiable or excusable homicides.

There are over 300 million firearms in the USA and at least 100 million firearms owners. Do the math

 

[vegas giants]

I’m impressed. You really dug deep for that BS answer. :thumbs:

The gun nuts do not care about the deaths. Not in the slightest. Those deaths mean nothing to them

 

[RaleBulgarian]

There are about 30K gun shot deaths each year. about 2/3s are suicides. that leaves about 10,000 gun shot deaths that are not intentionally self inflicted. 80% or more of murders are committed by people who cannot legally own firearms -meaning felons, fugitives, those with drug addictions or other disqualifying characteristics. So we are down to about 2000 or so gun shot deaths that are not suicides and are committed by people who are not already legally banned from possessing a firearm. Some of those are accidental. Some of those are justifiable or excusable homicides.

There are over 300 million firearms in the USA and at least 100 million firearms owners. Do the math

Okay.

The murders of innocents by those unlawful holders of firearms ABSOLUTELY DO COUNT

The firearm holders legal status isn’t relevant when an innocent is murdered

That adds up to around 12,000 innocent victims killed by firearms in your scenario. That’s the real math.

 

[TurtleDude]

Okay.

The murders of innocents by those unlawful holders of firearms ABSOLUTELY DO COUNT

The firearm holders legal status isn’t relevant when an innocent is murdered

That adds up to around 12,000 innocent victims killed by firearms in your scenario. That’s the real math.

you are ten times too high. Most murder victims-80% or so-are criminals.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

you are ten times too high. Most murder victims-80% or so-are criminals.

Where do you get your numbers from? Can you prove what you’re asserting?

 

[TurtleDude]

Where do you get your numbers from? Can you prove what you’re asserting?

You really should do some rudimentary research. Most people who are murdered are mopes. Most people who commit murders, already have had extensive contact with the criminal justice system. That has been posted on this board ad nauseum.

Do you have any legitimate belief this is not true?

 

[RaleBulgarian]

You really should do some rudimentary research. Most people who are murdered are mopes. Most people who commit murders, already have had extensive contact with the criminal justice system. That has been posted on this board ad nauseum.

Do you have any legitimate belief this is not true?

You should know me better than to think I haven’t already researched before questioning you.

The answer is that you don’t want to acknowledge that there isn’t any legitimate source or multiple sources that support your thesis.

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

[TurtleDude]

You should know me better than to think I haven’t already researched before questioning you.

The answer is that you don’t want to acknowledge is that there isn’t any legitimate source or multiple sources that support your thesis.

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

OK-you are demanding proof of facts you already know exit-in other words, you are derailing.

CRIME DATA: 90% of "Victims" Have Prior Criminal Records - Gun Owners of California

The average victim had been arrested 13 times before, and 26.2 percent were suspected gang members.

Murder Victim Studies

Gang Membership. 71% of the victims were documented members of gangs. This included 30 female gang members. The primary purpose of the shooting was to terrorize the other gangs. These were not random shootings.
Undeniably, some victims are innocent. However, the vast majority are "low-lifes." As compared to the general population, both murderers and victims have criminal records and abuse alcohol or drugs.

2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say - Baltimore Sun

about 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

OK-you are demanding proof of facts you already know exit-in other words, you are derailing.

CRIME DATA: 90% of "Victims" Have Prior Criminal Records - Gun Owners of California

The average victim had been arrested 13 times before, and 26.2 percent were suspected gang members.

Murder Victim Studies

Gang Membership. 71% of the victims were documented members of gangs. This included 30 female gang members. The primary purpose of the shooting was to terrorize the other gangs. These were not random shootings.
Undeniably, some victims are innocent. However, the vast majority are "low-lifes." As compared to the general population, both murderers and victims have criminal records and abuse alcohol or drugs.

2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say - Baltimore Sun

about 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.

I’ve also found articles like the ones you reference. The glaring problem with using them to prop up your assertion is that they don’t. Much of what is purported in them is anecdotal evidence and speculation taken from individual locations, not nationwide assessments backed up by any trusted government source.

Bottom line, interesting reading, but not solid evidence by a fair degree.

 

[TurtleDude]

I’ve also found articles like the ones you reference. The glaring problem with using them to prop up your assertion is that they don’t. Much of what is purported in them is anecdotal evidence and speculation taken from individual locations, not nationwide assessments backed up by any trusted government source.

Bottom line, interesting reading, but not solid evidence by a fair degree.

Does that means you have counter-evidence? I bet you do not, you just don't want your anti gun narrative taken apart. The fact is-very few people are murdered each year by people who legally possess the weapon used for the killing.

 

[vegas giants]

I’ve also found articles like the ones you reference. The glaring problem with using them to prop up your assertion is that they don’t. Much of what is purported in them is anecdotal evidence and speculation taken from individual locations, not nationwide assessments backed up by any trusted government source.

Bottom line, interesting reading, but not solid evidence by a fair degree.

Sandy hook, Las Vegas, Orlando, Virginia beach.....etc. How many examples do we have to give? The truth is gun rubbers do not care about these people dying. Not in the slightest

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Does that means you have counter-evidence? I bet you do not, you just don't want your anti gun narrative taken apart. The fact is-very few people are murdered each year by people who legally possess the weapon used for the killing.

You continue to discount the number of people murdered (not killed) each year by someone who isn’t legally allowed to possess a firearm. That is illogical. They are no less victims simply because their murderer should not have had a firearm, thus their number certainly does count.

 

[DebateChallenge]

I’m impressed. You really dug deep for that BS answer. :thumbs:

Truth hurt?

 

[DebateChallenge]

B]The murders of innocents by those unlawful holders of firearms ABSOLUTELY DO COUNT[/B]

Sure they do, that's why we want to enforce the laws we've already got. The way to stop unlawful holders of firearms from getting ahold of firearms in the first place is not by making more laws, but by enforcing laws.

 

[vegas giants]

Sure they do, that's why we want to enforce the laws we've already got. The way to stop unlawful holders of firearms from getting ahold of firearms in the first place is not by making more laws, but by enforcing laws.

We already enforce our laws

 

[DebateChallenge]

Sandy hook, Las Vegas, Orlando, Virginia beach.....etc. How many examples do we have to give? The truth is gun rubbers do not care about these people dying. Not in the slightest

Sure we do, that's why we should have armed security in schools, clubs, and beaches.

 

[vegas giants]

Sure we do, that's why we should have armed security in schools, clubs, and beaches.

It wont work.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Truth hurt?

Not at all. I appreciate truth and a funny joke too. You missed the mark on the former, but hit the bullseye on the latter. :mrgreen:

Sure they do, that's why we want to enforce the laws we've already got. The way to stop unlawful holders of firearms from getting ahold of firearms in the first place is not by making more laws, but by enforcing laws.

Absolutely, existing laws should be enforced. No argument there however, laws aren’t what is being discussed. Numbers/statistics are, and factually speaking, more innocent people are murdered by firearms in America than any other 1st world country. By multiples.

 

[TurtleDude]

You continue to discount the number of people murdered (not killed) each year by someone who isn’t legally allowed to possess a firearm. That is illogical. They are no less victims simply because their murderer should not have had a firearm, thus their number certainly does count.

you miss the obvious point-the vast majority of gunshot murders are committed by those who already are committing a federal (and almost always a state) felony by merely possessing the gun. Your support for laws that criminalize current legal possession of things like normal capacity magazines or suppressors does nothing to impact that vast majority of gunshot murderers.

 

[vegas giants]

Not at all. I appreciate truth and a funny joke too. You missed the mark on the former, but hit the bullseye on the latter. :mrgreen:

Absolutely, existing laws should be enforced. No argument there however, laws aren’t what is being discussed. Numbers/statistics are, and factually speaking, more innocent people are murdered by firearms in America than any other 1st world country. By multiples.

There is nowhere on earth you can enforce lax gun laws and get low gun deaths in any city

 

[RaleBulgarian]

you miss the obvious point-the vast majority of gunshot murders are committed by those who already are committing a federal (and almost always a state) felony by merely possessing the gun. Your support for laws that criminalize current legal possession of things like normal capacity magazines or suppressors does nothing to impact that vast majority of gunshot murderers.

No, I haven’t missed your attempt at conflating two separate issues (deaths caused by firearms in America, and firearms laws in America).

1. Factually, more innocent people are murdered by firearms in America than any other 1st world country, by multiples.

2. Theoretically, if a particular firearm (or firearm accessory) was banned, lawful gun owners would turn in/destroy those firearms and accessories which would, in turn, cause the supply of those firearms and accessories to dwindle, making acquiring them more difficult or impossible to acquire by those not legally permitted to have them.

I’ve already provided data that backs up the hypothesis in another thread, where high capacity magazines were outlawed as part of the federal AWB. As time went on, fewer and fewer high capacity magazines were confiscated as the resupply was cut off.

 

[TurtleDude]

No, I haven’t missed your attempt at conflating two separate issues (deaths caused by firearms in America, and firearms laws in America).

1. Factually, more innocent people are murdered by firearms in America than any other 1st world country, by multiples.

2. Theoretically, if a particular firearm (or firearm accessory) was banned, lawful gun owners would turn in/destroy those firearms and accessories which would, in turn, cause the supply of those firearms and accessories to dwindle, making acquiring them more difficult or impossible to acquire by those not legally permitted to have them.

I’ve already provided data that backs up the hypothesis in another thread, where high capacity magazines were outlawed as part of the federal AWB. As time went on, fewer and fewer high capacity magazines were confiscated as the resupply was cut off.

so you are in favor of banning handguns?

You do realize "confiscated" has no relevance to "used in murders"? I already showed that statistic was worthless. Owning a high capacity magazine during the ban was not illegal.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

There is nowhere on earth you can enforce lax gun laws and get low gun deaths in any city

Logically, if laws are strictly enforced, a drop in crimes associated with those laws would drop.

 

[vegas giants]

Logically, if laws are strictly enforced, a drop in crimes associated with those laws would drop.

You can't get perfect enforcement of laws unless you live in a police state. We have the most effective law enforcement in the world that is very high tech and we also incarcerate more people than anyone on earth.

It cant be done with lax gun laws

 

[RaleBulgarian]

so you are in favor of banning handguns?

You do realize "confiscated" has no relevance to "used in murders"? I already showed that statistic was worthless. Owning a high capacity magazine during the ban was not illegal.

Of course I don’t favor banning handguns. Did you miss the “theoretically” part?

Confiscated/destroyed, etc., do have relevance. As supply is reduced, so is availability. Simple, irrefutable logic.