Is religion about avoiding reality?

[Daisy]

In my own way, I am.

You seem to be making various assumptions that are not supported by our little discussion here.

Is there such a thing? I would think it would be God's way or no way that counts...

 

[Logicman]

The meme, similar to most of your biblical assertions, has only itself to verify itself.
OM

You're not making any sense again.

 

[Omega Man]

You're not making any sense again.

What's not to understand? My comment was self-explanatory; you used a meme to make an assertion.


OM

 

[devildavid]

If you cannot understand the connections of either to both, I cannot explain it to you.

I apologize for my shortcomings.

It isn't a matter of me not understanding the connection. It's that there is no demonstrable connection. The problem has to do with the nature of the concept of god, not any shortcomings you have in explaining it. It cannot be sufficiently explained by analogies to physical experiences or feelings.

What I initially objected to and still do is any claim that it is sonehow a failing of someone if they do not sense god. This assumes that a god is always there to sense and that everyone should be able to sense it.

 

[zyzygy]

It isn't a matter of me not understanding the connection. It's that there is no demonstrable connection. The problem has to do with the nature of the concept of god, not any shortcomings you have in explaining it. It cannot be sufficiently explained by analogies to physical experiences or feelings.

What I initially objected to and still do is any claim that it is sonehow a failing of someone if they do not sense god. This assumes that a god is always there to sense and that everyone should be able to sense it.

He does not consider that a believer maybe only imagines a god and mistakes subjectivity for objectivity.

 

[RAMOSS]

Go tell it to somebody who values your nonsense.

I am telling it.. I am just pointing out things about how your claims and ability to back your claims up to others. The fact you get defensive is not relevant to that. In fact, it enhances my point.

 

[calamity]

Go tell it to somebody who values your nonsense.

Sounds like advice you should consider taking.

 

[code1211]

Is there such a thing? I would think it would be God's way or no way that counts...

The only way that we can be sure that anything is God's way is the way prescribed by Jesus.

That particular way was was written down about a hundred years later when the lessons taught by Jesus had been passed down verbally by the faithful.

Various actions of picking and choosing which words were THE Word were already completed and expanded upon at the time the Gospels had been written and subsequently authorized.

We know with pretty certain certainty that religion has at least a little bit of politics to it. Christianity was almost certainly subject to this as well.

So, having been raised a Catholic, the pageantry and rituals of the Catholic Mass are a comfort to me. Are all of their teachings comfortable? Frankly, no.

I am satisfied that I have prayed for help and that help has been delivered. Do I know anything with certainty regarding God or His desires for my direction? Very little and that small bit is subject to revision as seems appropriate to me.

I do not have the ability for complete surrender to anything contrived by men.

Religion seems fraught with opportunity to dissent. Catholicism in particular has various bits that seems less the Word of God and more the product of philosophical word play.

Did Jesus even once use the word "Limbo" in any of his proclamations? Annulment? Did he ever say that failure to attend Mass is a mortal sin?

So, like the folks who picked and chose themselves into the Reformation and subsequent off shoots of Christianity, I have done the same. I just like the Mass, the community service and the fellowship of the local parish of the Church.

Unlike Martin Luther, I've neglected to nail anything on the door of my church.

Would that be required?

 

[calamity]

If you cannot understand the connections of either to both, I cannot explain it to you.

I apologize for my shortcomings.

You should see the bold as a clear message.

 

[Daisy]

The only way that we can be sure that anything is God's way is the way prescribed by Jesus.

That particular way was was written down about a hundred years later when the lessons taught by Jesus had been passed down verbally by the faithful.

Various actions of picking and choosing which words were THE Word were already completed and expanded upon at the time the Gospels had been written and subsequently authorized.

We know with pretty certain certainty that religion has at least a little bit of politics to it. Christianity was almost certainly subject to this as well.

So, having been raised a Catholic, the pageantry and rituals of the Catholic Mass are a comfort to me. Are all of their teachings comfortable? Frankly, no.

I am satisfied that I have prayed for help and that help has been delivered. Do I know anything with certainty regarding God or His desires for my direction? Very little and that small bit is subject to revision as seems appropriate to me.

I do not have the ability for complete surrender to anything contrived by men.

Religion seems fraught with opportunity to dissent. Catholicism in particular has various bits that seems less the Word of God and more the product of philosophical word play.

Did Jesus even once use the word "Limbo" in any of his proclamations? Annulment? Did he ever say that failure to attend Mass is a mortal sin?

So, like the folks who picked and chose themselves into the Reformation and subsequent off shoots of Christianity, I have done the same. I just like the Mass, the community service and the fellowship of the local parish of the Church.

Unlike Martin Luther, I've neglected to nail anything on the door of my church.

Would that be required?

I think you've got the right idea by going directly back to Jesus' teachings and not listening to man's traditions/ideas...yes, we are able to distinguish what those are if we truly believe what Paul said...

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

And Peter...

"For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

God's Word is protected/preserved through His holy spirit so therefore we can trust it to be the truth...

"...your word is truth." John 17:17

 

[code1211]

It isn't a matter of me not understanding the connection. It's that there is no demonstrable connection. The problem has to do with the nature of the concept of god, not any shortcomings you have in explaining it. It cannot be sufficiently explained by analogies to physical experiences or feelings.

What I initially objected to and still do is any claim that it is sonehow a failing of someone if they do not sense god. This assumes that a god is always there to sense and that everyone should be able to sense it.

I cannot and never could play the piano at a virtuoso level. I also could never hit a major league fast ball. I also can't hit a 350 yard drive. There are probably more things in life that I can't do than I can do.

This does in no way indicate anything about me failing. These are only things that I can't do. Very few folks can do all things perfectly or even well. Maybe nobody...

At the same time, my inability to play, hit or drive things does not indicate in any way that pianos, baseball bats and golf clubs don't exist.

I can't relay my experience to you and that's okay. This is kind of like love for your child. If it never gripped you, you will never understand it.

You never did answer my question. Do you experience all things in exactly the same way right now that you did when you were a new born?

 

[code1211]

You should see the bold as a clear message.

Any restatement of your recurring theme is always understood and always accepted to contain the same, unchanging value.

 

[code1211]

I think you've got the right idea by going directly back to Jesus' teachings and not listening to man's traditions/ideas...yes, we are able to distinguish what those are if we truly believe what Paul said...

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

And Peter...

"For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

God's Word is protected/preserved through His holy spirit so therefore we can trust it to be the truth...

"...your word is truth." John 17:17

The most famous stories of Christ are interesting in that they portray three themes again and again:

1. Be kind and helpful, don't exclude and don't condemn others for their weaknesses. Help them in the best way you can if you can.
2. Honor God and work to separate the worldly from the Heavenly. When it's time to make a table, make a table. When it's time to flip it over, flip it over.
3. Individual integrity. It is amazing to me that Christ's Apostles never seemed to "get it". Again and again, they fell asleep, denied the obvious or just plain missed the point. In the meantime, Jesus again and again, reached back to them and moved His references to their point of understanding to help them move forward. This is the act of a good teacher and is downright astonishing for the Son of God to take the time. If He can take the time, maybe we can as well.

In the Gospels, it seems like Jesus was prone to discarding things that were rock solid teachings from the Old Testament. Moses said to stone the woman and Jesus asked that the person without sin cast the first stone.

In this way, it seems like Jesus is modeling a certain behavior. Is it kind to stone the woman? Not so much. Should I do it? ME? No. I won't do it.

Does stoning the woman honor God? Not in my understanding.

If the Elders in your church say to stone the woman, are you pretty much required to stone her even if it seems unkind and doesn't really seem to honor God? In my mind, refraining from casting the stone is better course of action.

The WWJD approach to stuff seems to be a pretty solid approach. I wish I could adhere to it more often.

 

[Tim the plumber]

The poor guy obviously trained under secular morons who understood nothing about the supernatural and he obviously wants to know nothing about the supernatural himself now that he is all grown up and on his own. He is going to believe only what he wants to believe and he rejects the supernatural because he does not want to believe the supernatural exists and he blames his unbelief on the stupid lying claim that anything which cannot be seen with the naked eye does not exist.

Given that we cannot see electrons with the naked eye and obviously anybody who is not mad and has any scientific understanding believes that electrons exist your statement is obviously false.

Why do you continually state stuff you know is false?

 

[devildavid]

I cannot and never could play the piano at a virtuoso level. I also could never hit a major league fast ball. I also can't hit a 350 yard drive. There are probably more things in life that I can't do than I can do.

This does in no way indicate anything about me failing. These are only things that I can't do. Very few folks can do all things perfectly or even well. Maybe nobody...

At the same time, my inability to play, hit or drive things does not indicate in any way that pianos, baseball bats and golf clubs don't exist.

I can't relay my experience to you and that's okay. This is kind of like love for your child. If it never gripped you, you will never understand it.

You never did answer my question. Do you experience all things in exactly the same way right now that you did when you were a new born?

I did answer the question. As I have physically changed my experience of things has physically changed.

Do you still claim that if one can't sense god it is somehow more to do with the person than with the concept of god?

 

[RAMOSS]

I cannot and never could play the piano at a virtuoso level. I also could never hit a major league fast ball. I also can't hit a 350 yard drive. There are probably more things in life that I can't do than I can do.

This does in no way indicate anything about me failing. These are only things that I can't do. Very few folks can do all things perfectly or even well. Maybe nobody...

At the same time, my inability to play, hit or drive things does not indicate in any way that pianos, baseball bats and golf clubs don't exist.

I can't relay my experience to you and that's okay. This is kind of like love for your child. If it never gripped you, you will never understand it.

You never did answer my question. Do you experience all things in exactly the same way right now that you did when you were a new born?

Those are very weak analogies, because, when it comes to gulf clubs, and pianos etc etc, although you can't play them, you can SHOW them. There are ways to detect them , and measure them. When it comes to the experiance you label God, there is no way for you to show that your experience is anything more than something happening in your brain. There is nothing you can show others, and measure, and show that it is something outside of your brain activity.

 

[Quaestio]

1, I go with the numbers put out by the IPCC about the expected warming. I even use the top range of them.

2, I explained the greenhouse effect. You say it is wrong. You are unable to say why my explanation is faulty.

3, The number of 20 million or so deaths due to the use of food as fuel is my number. I came up with it based on the number of people living on less than $2.50 a day, 3 billion, and their life expectancy. I compared this to the life expectancy of those who have $400 a year more. No blog or any other source has used this number to my knowledge. It is my guess. I am happy to look at evidence, appeals to authority are not evidence.

4, Given your habit of linking to the cover of any report and possibly, if we are lucky to get a quote from a blog about it it is you who is not debating in good faith.

5, You have failed to show any post of mine that uses the tactics I mentioned. All you have done is rant in an angry upset way. The sort of emotional response that happens when somebody's faith is rocked.

And there you go 'avoiding reality' yet again...

 

[Tim the plumber]

And there you go 'avoiding reality' yet again...

5, You have failed to show any post of mine that uses the tactics I mentioned. All you have done is rant in an angry upset way. The sort of emotional response that happens when somebody's faith is rocked.

 

[Quaestio]

5, You have failed to show any post of mine that uses the tactics I mentioned. All you have done is rant in an angry upset way. The sort of emotional response that happens when somebody's faith is rocked.

I'm laughing my arse off at your blatant hypocrisy Tim. :mrgreen: I'm not "angry" or "upset" or "emotional" or "ranting". Projecting your own behavior on to others appears to be one of your 'tactics', not mine.

I'm also an atheist, so I don't have any "religious faith" to be "rocked".

As for showing posts of yours where you use the same tactics as the Creationists mentioned in the Amon Ra video that you linked to in your opening post ... well if you insist:

This exchange is from the Environment and Climate Issues subforum today:

This YouTube video summarizes the issues.

Hindu Kush Himalaya Assessment: Mountains, Climate Change, Sustainability, and People

Here's the source organization for the HIndu-Kush Himalaya report. I'm sure they'll have much more information.

HIMAP

Well, I'm not going to watch your silly video. If you have a decent point to make then make it. If you want to divert me away with spending time on drivel it was a nice try but no good.

The second link does not contain any information.

I have pointed out before that just linking to something without quoting from it is a typical act of the religious when they know they have lost. In fact both tactics are so typical.

You wouldn't watch the video summarizing the issues in the official report. You wouldn't read the official report itself on the organization's website. You just dismissed it as "drivel" without even looking it.

Then you complained that the poster didn't quote from the video or website they posted and that's it's a 'typical tactic of the religious'.

Yet let's look at your opening post in this thread:

YouTube

Why do religious believers hate reality so much?

A video which seems to sum up the issue of trying to communicate with the god-bothers.

Hmm... no "quote" from you from the video you posted? Oh my! but according to you, that's a "typical act of the religious when they know they have lost." !!! LOL! :mrgreen:

I won't go any further posting from that subforum as the content is off topic, but you regularly use the same "tactics" there that you accuse "the religious" of using. Your hypocrisy is hilarious.

 

[Tim the plumber]

I'm laughing my arse off at your blatant hypocrisy Tim. :mrgreen: I'm not "angry" or "upset" or "emotional" or "ranting". Projecting your own behavior on to others appears to be one of your 'tactics', not mine.

I'm also an atheist, so I don't have any "religious faith" to be "rocked".

Your faith is in Global Warming.

As for showing posts of yours where you use the same tactics as the Creationists mentioned in the Amon Ra video that you linked to in your opening post ... well if you insist:

This exchange is from the Environment and Climate Issues subforum today:

Originally Posted by Media_Truth View Post
This YouTube video summarizes the issues.

Hindu Kush Himalaya Assessment: Mountains, Climate Change, Sustainability, and People

Here's the source organization for the HIndu-Kush Himalaya report. I'm sure they'll have much more information.

HIMAP

You wouldn't watch the video summarizing the issues in the official report. You wouldn't read the official report itself on the organization's website. You just dismissed it as "drivel" without even looking it.

The report you want to have as evidence does not have any information in it. Try reading it. Try finding something useful out of it. Stop lying.

Then you complained that the poster didn't quote from the video or website they posted and that's it's a 'typical tactic of the religious'.

Yes. Quote something useful from it.

Yet let's look at your opening post in this thread:



Hmm... no "quote" from you from the video you posted? Oh my! but according to you, that's a "typical act of the religious when they know they have lost." !!! LOL! :mrgreen:

I won't go any further posting from that subforum as the content is off topic, but you regularly use the same "tactics" there that you accuse "the religious" of using. Your hypocrisy is hilarious.

Yes, I have not quoted the video as it is not really appropriate to do so. How would I do that? I can hardly cut and paste from it can I? The message of the video deals with how religion impacts the view of reality in the religious.

 

[blarg]

YouTube

Why do religious believers hate reality so much?

A video which seems to sum up the issue of trying to communicate with the god-bothers.

i just play games watch shows or come hear for that

 

[CLAX1911]

YouTube

Why do religious believers hate reality so much?

A video which seems to sum up the issue of trying to communicate with the god-bothers.

No religious belief is not about avoiding reality. This is really quite a simplistic view of it. And I'm not watching a 52 minute video about it.

Religion is about a lot of different things to a lot of different people. To hear someone be this reductive about it makes me hold less respect for him, not that I am too familiar with him or his work.

 

[Tim the plumber]

No religious belief is not about avoiding reality. This is really quite a simplistic view of it. And I'm not watching a 52 minute video about it.

Religion is about a lot of different things to a lot of different people. To hear someone be this reductive about it makes me hold less respect for him, not that I am too familiar with him or his work.

I know your position and respect it and you. Thing is I can't understand the religious mindset. How does it work if it is not about reality avoidance?

 

[CLAX1911]

I know your position and respect it and you. Thing is I can't understand the religious mindset. How does it work if it is not about reality avoidance?

Same way any other belief system works. If a person that says the only thing they believe is reality then they don't believe in anything meaning they're nihilists.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Same way any other belief system works. If a person that says the only thing they believe is reality then they don't believe in anything meaning they're nihilists.

Nihilists don't believe in reality. That is the point, nothing, for them, is real.

Why does a fierce attachment to the real world, not wanting to have any false beliefs mean you don't believe in anything? I think you are carrying some baggage from the days before you stopped worshiping the Sky Daddy.