I want a National Single-Payer Healthcare Plan, Do You?

[Henrin]

I'm not going to argue insane things with you. If you think liberals only support single payer forever and have always refused to compromise about it then good for you. :thumbs:

Did I say forever? Nope.

Do liberals compromise? Nope.

 

[Verax]

^^^^

Says a socialist.

LoL... You mean a somewhat democratic socialist that takes bits and pieces from all decent ideologies and forms rational opinions from many perspectives. Our guy could have easily won the presidency if not for corruption, I'd say that's pretty impressive and speaks to the popularity of the ideology and the people who support it.

 

[Henrin]

LoL... You mean a somewhat democratic socialist that takes bits and pieces from all decent ideologies and forms rational opinions from many perspectives. Our guy could have easily won the presidency if not for corruption, I'd say that's pretty impressive and speaks to the popularity of the ideology and the people who support it.

So your ideology is a cluser****.

 

[Cardinal]

I don't like the current ACA, but I don't want it replaced with a version which gives the AMA, Big Pharma, and the Insurance Industry even more money and control over healthcare.

IMO a national single payer program modeled after the best practices of other Western single payer plans, while addressing and correcting the ills of such plans is the best medicine for the people of the United States.

That is what we should ALL be demanding of our representatives in Congress and the White House.

We could start with simply reorganizing Medicare, Medicaid and whatever other programs we have at the Federal level into universal healthcare deducted from our payroll then build on it.

If you DO agree, please explain what YOU would like to see.

If you DO NOT agree, please explain why.

Vote all Democrat at every possible election and you'll be more likely to get your single payer health care.

 

[Greenbeard]

If you DO NOT agree, please explain why.

There is plenty that's appealing about the concept in the abstract. But as a matter of policy and politics and pragmatism, I don't believe anything other than relatively incremental change is desirable. There isn't a magic wand and those who pretend otherwise (they exist on both the left and right) concern me.

Beyond that, you never start from scratch. You're bound by path dependence: where you can and do go next is bound by where you are. "Simply reorganizing Medicare, Medicaid and whatever other programs we have at the Federal level" sounds simple, but it defeats part of the purpose of what you're trying to achieve. Medicare and Medicaid are heavily privatized--the "public" programs are where the big insurers you think you're eliminating make their money now!

(E.g., Aetna earnings jump on growth in Medicare, Medicaid health plans, Humana profit up 43% as Medicare Advantage unit soars, Anthem Profit Jumps on Higher Medicaid Membership, UnitedHealth Group Earnings Up On Growth In Medicare, Medicaid, etc, etc).

So if we ever did "single-payer," I don't think it would look like what you think it would look like. I think it would probably look like Medicare or Medicaid do today, which is quite different.

 

[slick]

Do you want a Federal Single-Payer Healthcare Plan? Only if you want to be the next Greece!

 

[Phys251]

It is a political impossibility.

Unfortunately you are right. As did Hillary, who got lambasted by the Bernie-or-Busters simply for pointing this out.

 

[Aristaeus]

Do you want a Federal Single-Payer Healthcare Plan? Only if you want to be the next Greece!

Or the UK, or Germany, or Norway, etc.

 

[DA60]

No...not exactly.

I want children under 18, veterans and the disabled to be fully covered by government healthcare. They can go to any hospital in America, get full healthcare and the hospital bills the government. Plus, children who carry a condition over to adulthood will have that condition covered forever as well.

Everyone else should have basic only government healthcare.

If they want more...go to charity hospitals, buy insurance or pay for it themselves.

Otherwise, the government should stay completely out of it. No insurance rules or limits...the latter can charge whatever they want and turn down whomever they want for any reason. Complete free enterprise.



I have said again and again (having lived in both America and Canada) - the Canadian system is not cheap and is great for GP visits and emergencies and that is it.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sit...-of-public-health-care-insurance-2015-rev.pdf

If you have an ongoing, non-life threatening, medical condition in Canada? Depending on the province (it varies), you could be waiting for many, many months for treatments/operations/etc....all the while in great pain/discomfort.

The Canadian system was designed so people can see GP's whenever they want and for emergencies...and it does these things very well. But it is simply not designed for non-life threatening, ongoing conditions. That is not me saying that...that is what Canadian doctors have me on several occasions.
And as people live longer and longer, they are having to live with more and more ongoing conditions.
Plus, many (all?) provinces do not cover prescription costs except as part of welfare. And they can be very high for certain conditions.

If you are poor...the Canadian system is generally great.
If you are middle class...the Canadian system is decent if you are relatively healthy or are in an emergency. Not so good if you have an ongoing problem.
If you are upper middle class-wealthy...the Canadian system sucks (compared to the US one) as you have few choices.

And that is the final lousy thing about the Canuck system...it does not allow for competition (except in a few, very limited cases). In almost all instances, it is flat out illegal to perform medical procedures (other then cosmetic surgery) outside of the system. You simply cannot open a private practise and charge whatever the market will bare (again, with a few, very limited examples).
This presents several problems.
1) doctors can usually make more in other countries that do allow private practises. So, these doctors get a great Canadian medical degree at huge cost to Canadian taxpayers and then bolt to greener pastures for more dough. That is why there are often huge shortages of doctors in many rural parts of Canada...the doctors simply would rather work in America for big bucks than in the middle of nowhere for good bucks.
Go to a remote Canadian area hospital and you will often find doctors who were born/trained outside of Canada and were recruited to come to the remote region by the province in question because they cannot get Canadian doctors to work there.
2) with less competition, prices can be far higher in Canada then they are in other countries that allow competition...costing more Canadian tax dollars to pay for them.
3) Canadians are often trapped in bureaucracy.
I knew a guy who was waiting for a triple bypass operation in a Canadian hospital. He was not hooked up to any tubes or machines and felt generally fine. But they would not let him wait for his operation at home because of legal liability - if he dies at home while waiting, the doctors can be blamed.
So (I have told this story before) this poor guy waited for over a month for his operation (which he ended up dying of - due to complications - a few days afterwards).
If he left, they threatened (and they do this to everyone) to put him at the bottom of the waiting list for the operation.
So he was trapped. He could not even leave the cardiac floor. And there were many others in the same state he was in. They were virtual prisoners, waiting for their operations...not allowed to leave the hospital or even their floor. And yet, most of them felt fine and would far rather be at home waiting for their procedure.
As well , there were patients forced to wait in emergency room beds (not comfortable - trust me) for days because there were no beds on the cardiac floor because all these patients in little-no discomfort were not allowed to leave. It was ridiculous.
And the nurses told me this was SOP and many of them were frustrated with the system as well.
In the American system, they boot you out of the hospital as fast as they can (for better or worse). But in the Canadian one, they literally will not let you leave until their legal asses are covered.

Like I said there is good and bad to the Canadian system. But it is far from a great system for all things. FAR.

 

[holbritter]

I'm curious how Canada and many European countries manage to provide universal health care to their citizens. Pardon my ignorance but it must be because either their medical costs are much lower or their taxes are through the roof.

I don't know, but my guess is that their health care industry and pharma aren't run like huge profit machines like they are here.

 

[holbritter]

I long ago accepted the fact that letting market forces bring health care costs down, while it would certainly work to do so in theory, won't be tolerated by virtually any demographic of American voters.

Let's take a couple of diagnostic procedures whose medical necessity is arguable, like a CT scan and a colonoscopy. A patient complains of increasingly bothersome stomach discomfort and wants a doctor to do a complete diagnostic look into the complaint. Is the CT scan and colonoscopy medically necessary? Who's to say? If the patient wants it, the patient will say it's necessary, and if the doctor is willing and able to provide them, she or he will say it's necessary. Who's going to step in and say it's not? Government? Because government knows better? Maybe it's cancer. Or maybe it's a dietary intolerance. Who's to know? Who should pay for these diagnostic tests?

Why are these tests so expensive in the first place? That's part of the problem right there.

 

[DA60]

I'm curious how Canada and many European countries manage to provide universal health care to their citizens. Pardon my ignorance but it must be because either their medical costs are much lower or their taxes are through the roof.

I don't know about Europe - but I know Canada (spent many years there).

Canada does it with higher taxes but mostly they do it by doing some things very well and some things not so well.

As several Canadian doctors told/confirmed to me...the Canadian system was and is built to do two things very well - GP visits and emergency care.
The Canadian system makes it easy for people to see GP's as often as they wish - for 'free'. And it is designed to help people with life threatening ailments quickly and effectively. And it does both of them very well, imo.
But what it does not do well (and was not designed to do back in the 1960's) is help people with ongoing, non-life threatening ailments/injuries. The famous long wait times in Canada are not a myth. If you have need of medical care for something that is non-life threatening - you will probably (depending on the province you are in) have to wait a LONG time; often many months. ANd if you are in pain while you wait - other than pain killers - that is just too bad.
Plus, most prescriptions are not paid for by the government (unless you are on welfare)...and those costs can be VERY high.

The Canada system works like a giant Emergency ward.
For example. If you go to your doctor with an ailment and they think it could be cancer - you will be rushed to near the head of the cue for testing. You will probably only have to wait a few days. Because your case is potentially life threatening.
But if your doctor thinks the chances are very small that you have cancer - but he/she just wants to be sure, you will probably have to wit months for the procedure.
Like in an ER. If you are really sick - you get help right away. But if you just have a cold, you will be waiting for many hours to see someone because they have limited resources in an ER and have to take the more serious cases first.
That is basically how the Canadian system works. They do not remotely have the money to treat everything right away. So they have to choose the really urgent ones first and make the rest wait.

The trouble is, as humans age longer (thanks to medical improvements), they tend to have more and more non-life threatening ailments/conditions. And as these cases grow in number (as the population ages), the waiting times get longer and longer.

And if you need psychological care in Canada for free? Forget it. In some provinces, the wait is well over a year...unless you are literally crazy and/or suicidal.
If you are 'just' depressed in many provinces in Canada. Your GP can prescribe you lots of drugs. But if they want you to see a 'shrink' - unless you are suicidal or 'nuts' - the wait times will be at least a year in many cases.
there are private 'shrinks'. But the poor cannot hope to afford those.

So, if you stay perfectly healthy except for one or two life threatening ailments...you will probably like the Canadian system as you will get good, fast service. And, if you are poor, at very little cost.
In fact, the more broke you are, the better the deal you are getting. A bum in Canada can drag his butt off of the street to the ER if he is having serious heart problems and get immediate, excellent care...and it will not cost him a penny. If he needs a pacemaker or a triple bypass operation? He can stay in the hospital for as long as he needs, get the operation from a good surgeon and get all the after operation care/drugs he requires. All absolutely free (since bums don't pay income taxes).
I think that is why Americans look so longingly at the Canadian system. Because in America, the more broke you are, the more in trouble you generally are in. But in Canada, everything is free if you have no money. Great health care for not a dime to you.
But there are LOTS of things the Canadian system does poorly...as they only have so much money to spread around. In fact, there are millions of Canadians who do not even realize the limits of their health care until they actually need the service in question as these limits are just not generally discussed in either the Canadian public or the media. I do not know why.

 

[Quag]

According to who ? Wait times are up overall 88 percent since 1993 and hope you dont need nerosurgery.

According to the Frazier Survey the average wait time is 47 weeks. Orthapedic surgery is 38 weeks.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2016

Wow 2 metrics with long wait times, the US system MUST be better!!!!

So a wait time is worse than not getting any health care because you cant afford it, your insurance doesn't cover it or you've hit your lifetime limit?
Yeah sorry the US system is a piece of crap unless your are in the top end of the wealth system, for the lower/middle class you are far better under the Canadian system.
You get cancer in Canada they will do their best, you get cancer in the USA better hope you have great insurance or that you are as good at chemistry as Walter White.

Can the Canadian system be better? Hell yeah!
Is it better than the US system? Hell Yeah!

 

[Harshaw]

LoL... You mean a somewhat democratic socialist that takes bits and pieces from all decent ideologies and forms rational opinions from many perspectives. Our guy could have easily won the presidency if not for corruption, I'd say that's pretty impressive and speaks to the popularity of the ideology and the people who support it.

Then why did you make a custom user tag calling yourself a socialist? Own it.

 

[Quag]

I don't know about Europe - but I know Canada (spent many years there).

Canada does it with higher taxes but mostly they do it by doing some things very well and some things not so well.

As several Canadian doctors told/confirmed to me...the Canadian system was and is built to do two things very well - GP visits and emergency care.
The Canadian system makes it easy for people to see GP's as often as they wish - for 'free'. And it is designed to help people with life threatening ailments quickly and effectively. And it does both of them very well, imo.
But what it does not do well (and was not designed to do back in the 1960's) is help people with ongoing, non-life threatening ailments/injuries. The famous long wait times in Canada are not a myth. If you have need of medical care for something that is non-life threatening - you will probably (depending on the province you are in) have to wait a LONG time; often many months. ANd if you are in pain while you wait - other than pain killers - that is just too bad.
Plus, most prescriptions are not paid for by the government (unless you are on welfare)...and those costs can be VERY high.

The Canada system works like a giant Emergency ward.
For example. If you go to your doctor with an ailment and they think it could be cancer - you will be rushed to near the head of the cue for testing. You will probably only have to wait a few days. Because your case is potentially life threatening.
But if your doctor thinks the chances are very small that you have cancer - but he/she just wants to be sure, you will probably have to wit months for the procedure.
Like in an ER. If you are really sick - you get help right away. But if you just have a cold, you will be waiting for many hours to see someone because they have limited resources in an ER and have to take the more serious cases first.
That is basically how the Canadian system works. They do not remotely have the money to treat everything right away. So they have to choose the really urgent ones first and make the rest wait.

The trouble is, as humans age longer (thanks to medical improvements), they tend to have more and more non-life threatening ailments/conditions. And as these cases grow in number (as the population ages), the waiting times get longer and longer.

And if you need psychological care in Canada for free? Forget it. In some provinces, the wait is well over a year...unless you are literally crazy and/or suicidal.
If you are 'just' depressed in many provinces in Canada. Your GP can prescribe you lots of drugs. But if they want you to see a 'shrink' - unless you are suicidal or 'nuts' - the wait times will be at least a year in many cases.
there are private 'shrinks'. But the poor cannot hope to afford those.

So, if you stay perfectly healthy except for one or two life threatening ailments...you will probably like the Canadian system as you will get good, fast service. And, if you are poor, at very little cost.
In fact, the more broke you are, the better the deal you are getting. A bum in Canada can drag his butt off of the street to the ER if he is having serious heart problems and get immediate, excellent care...and it will not cost him a penny. If he needs a pacemaker or a triple bypass operation? He can stay in the hospital for as long as he needs, get the operation from a good surgeon and get all the after operation care/drugs he requires. All absolutely free (since bums don't pay income taxes).
I think that is why Americans look so longingly at the Canadian system. Because in America, the more broke you are, the more in trouble you generally are in. But in Canada, everything is free if you have no money. Great health care for not a dime to you.
But there are LOTS of things the Canadian system does poorly...as they only have so much money to spread around. In fact, there are millions of Canadians who do not even realize the limits of their health care until they actually need the service in question as these limits are just not generally discussed in either the Canadian public or the media. I do not know why.

Not a bad summary.
What you should also add that most Americans seem unaware of is that you can also go private in Canada and avoid many of the wait times. What exactly you can do privately in Canada varies from province to province but you really do get the best of both systems that way. As you say psychological help is very difficult to get under the universal system but can be obtained privately without any difficulty. If you are told to the waiting time is 6 months for a test you can opt to take it privately and either pay out of your pocket or if you have health insurance be reimbursed. This means those with the least means are still covered but those who can are not "dying waiting for rationed health care" as many in the US claim. It also has the added bonus of reducing the wait times for those who cant go private.

 

[Fenton]

Wow 2 metrics with long wait times, the US system MUST be better!!!!

So a wait time is worse than not getting any health care because you cant afford it, your insurance doesn't cover it or you've hit your lifetime limit?
Yeah sorry the US system is a piece of crap unless your are in the top end of the wealth system, for the lower/middle class you are far better under the Canadian system.
You get cancer in Canada they will do their best, you get cancer in the USA better hope you have great insurance or that you are as good at chemistry as Walter White.

Can the Canadian system be better? Hell yeah!
Is it better than the US system? Hell Yeah!

Socialism is regressive and authortarian, and all the " hell yea's !! " in the world wont change that

 

[countryboy]

Single payer is dog vomit.

Look at Canada.

You want the best care and lower costs... have health care treated like any business. Or do you think the government would be great at developing computers, cell phones and the like?

I don't understand why people want government, which fails at almost everything (none of the cost predictions for these government schemes/programs have ever come close to predictions), involved with their healthcare.

That 20 Trillion in debt and 65 TRILLION of unfunded liabilities... brought to you by arrogant government morons who obviously didn't know squat. Their "programs" have harmed the nation, and you want to have the state do more???

Facepalm.

Insanity is doing the same BS over and over and expecting a different result.

When will people learn?

Actually, I believe it's closer to 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

 

[countryboy]

So Americans taxes would go down with Single Payer?

Yes, absolutely. And, you'll keep your assigned doctor, and assigned plan, and like it. You'll hafta like it, because you'll have no other choice.

 

[countryboy]

Why are these tests so expensive in the first place? That's part of the problem right there.

They are expensive because of litigation, and in turn, medical malpractice insurance rates. In Canada, litigation is limited, and malpractice suits are vigorously defended by the State. In other words, tort reform. How many American libs would really go for this? :roll:

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/medical-malpractice-liability/canada.php

 

[ALiberalModerate]

insurance is based on your risk, not your ability to pay

Of course. See this post: https://www.debatepolitics.com/poll...lan-do-you-post1066967979.html#post1066967979

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Actually it doesn't really work at all. It might work better though if people weren't trying to use for everything. The system was never designed to cover all the things the government mandated it cover.

Its not the routine medical care that is responsible for the vast majority of healthcare costs. The system is not broken because it covers your routine checkups, vaccinations, and so on. Its broken because one cancer diagnosis, one critical injury, one heart condition, one diagnosis of type 2 diabetes and so on, will cost more in a couple of days of care than a lifetime of routine care cost you.

 

[notquiteright]

No. The government is big enough and my taxes are high enough. I do not want the government to have more influence over healthcare and I do not want to pay more for other peoples healthcare.

You pay for other people's healthcare now. Higher costs at the hospital for everyone who can't/won't pay now gets passed on to you. Our county subsidies the 'county' hospital- where do they get that money??? (from you)

So you are paying, now this maybe difficult to understand but what if what you pay for Health Insurance was reduced to zero (a small policy to upgrade your priorityif you wish)- would you accept a tax that cost both your company and yourself much less???

Big government is a red herring. For many big government simply means the government that gets in their way (real or imagined) and necessary government is the one that directly benefits them... eace

 

[ALiberalModerate]

You do know that you can afford it because we provide the military might to keep you safe, right?

In fact, America subsidizes all the "free" health care, welfare and free education for those "civilized" countries by providing security for them so they can spend almost nothing on defense needs.

You're welcome.

That may be true for countries like South Korea, or European NATO countries back in the days of the Cold War, but I am pretty sure that Canada is not needing or using our military very often.

 

[Henrin]

You pay for other people's healthcare now. Higher costs at the hospital for everyone who can't/won't pay now gets passed on to you. Our county subsidies the 'county' hospital- where do they get that money??? (from you)

Why do people keep pointing that out like I'm not aware? When I said "pay more for other peoples healthcare" exactly what do you think I meant? Maybe that I'm aware I'm paying for other peoples healthcare now.

So you are paying, now this maybe difficult to understand but what if what you pay for Health Insurance was reduced to zero (a small policy to upgrade your priorityif you wish)- would you accept a tax that cost both your company and yourself much less???

Yeah, I don't get that.

Big government is a red herring. For many big government simply means the government that gets in their way (real or imagined) and necessary government is the one that directly benefits them... eace

I didn't say "big government, but that the government was "big enough".

 

[notquiteright]

The VA is a fine example of how government handles single payer health care. It's so clogged up with drunks and druggies that people who actually might benefit from medical care can't get in. Then again, if you don't have to pay for your medical care then why not be a drunk or a druggie?.

As a veteran using the VA system here in Oklahoma (which do to ignorant right wing tax policies is CUTTING state funding to it's vets) I can assure you the system isn't full of drunks or druggies. I 'get in' fast enough for even the most routine treatments. The Medical team spends far longer discussing my medical issues- relatively minor- as well as good health issues than ANY civilian clinic/practice/office!!!!

The VA practices triage- priority based on service member's service/injuries and age. What clogs it up, where the waits come from are low priority veterans who have non service related issues- I guess your drunks and druggies are there, but I don't see them when i'm at either the clinic or hospital.

I see very old men in wheelchairs nearing the end of life. I see young men with visible scars and limps, artificial limbs. But I guess you have access to va medical records and patient logs... eace