I Have Changed My Mind On Impeachment

[JasperL]

If it comes to that, democrats best hope is they can bribe enough retiring senators to vote their way on their way out (not sure how many there are). It is political suicide for the rest of them. Thats why i think even Romney will begrudgingly hold the republican line.

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Sure, it might be "political suicide" but only because it's not the GOP any more but the Trump party. We all know that, and it's part of what's so wrong about the political environment right now. It's true enough that Democrats are desperate to get rid of Trump, but when he does things like use his personal attorney as the combination of AG and Sec of State in Ukraine, there's a reason for it. When Rudy conspires with a couple of thugs, who also met with Trump and Rudy, to undermine a sitting U.S. Ambassador, that's actually bad. Maybe not impeachable, but it's unacceptable. We should be able to agree on that.

Let's put it another way - do you think if instead of Trump doing all this it was Hillary that the GOP vote would be unanimously against impeachment? I suspect that the votes would not quite flip, but surely no one being honest would predict that the GOP in the House and Senate would unanimously vote AGAINST impeachment and removal...

 

[Moderate Right]

It's their choice to decide if the charges formalized are worthy of removal from office. I'm trying to leave that open myself.

It seems farfetched the idea that there was no pressure to investigate Biden specifically and not broad corruption. It also seems clear that since it was specific on Biden - trumps direct political opponent at the time - then it is a political leveraging of foreign aid to a dependent nation. Does it exactly count as quid pro quo? Does it need to? Do we need an explicit quote from trump to prove it? I think that hes been in the game long enough to be able to avoid such things but still in effect carry it out.

Besides these two items, there are supporting narratives surrounding Giuliani's actions and the false smear campaign against the diplomat. I dont think these are core, but seem to depict the larger chain of events.

Ok, let's say for discussion that by some standard this isnt an impeachable offense, if it turns out that the evidence does support a specific pressure of aid for investigation. If it's not worthy to remove him from office, what will the GOP do to formally censure the president, if anything? Has he truly done nothing wrong here? The GOP says it's not impeachable, then what lesser disciplinary action will they take? And, diplomats get removed from time to time, even if victims of a smear campaign. Trump has been the victim of a smear campaign from the left for three solid years now. When are they going to be punished? Why is it OK for the deep state to smear Trump?

In my mind I think if it was clear to Ukraine and US parties there was a quid pro quo, then it is impeachable and he could be removed. Really, it seems that the president has done enough to ignore rules and laws that he just isnt fit. We shouldnt be putting an unfit candidate in office and praying his appointees and lifetime civil servants around him will keep him in line. This office should be held by the very best among us, and trump is quite easily not that.

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You are behind the times. Democrats have already determined that quid pro quo is not an impeachable offense so now they are claiming bribery. It's not up to Republicans to punish Trump every time they disagree with him on something. Trump is the president. Congress is beneath the president.

 

[jnug]

if any of it were true some of the Dems wouldn't have already voted against impeachment inquiry .....and Pelosi would have held impeachment vote yesterday.

rabbit hole you've climbed in is too deep and dark to begin to address the silly CT theories.

best you read my signature below :lol:

Two dems out of 235. Good, you go with that. See where it gets you.

 

[jnug]

You are behind the times. Democrats have already determined that quid pro quo is not an impeachable offense so now they are claiming bribery. It's not up to Republicans to punish Trump every time they disagree with him on something. Trump is the president. Congress is beneath the president.

Quid pro quo is literally "this for that" in English. This for that engagement with the leader of a foreign country contrary to the National Security Interests of the United States and FOR the personal political of the President is Bribery/extortion on a grand scale.

 

[Moderate Right]

Refute it.

There’s plenty of very obvious evidence on my side of that argument.

I knew about Trump’s total dependence on Russian money long before 2016.

Try telling us that it’s normal for an active Presidential campaign to be in routine contact with Russian intelligence during an election. Imagine if Kennedy, Eisenhower, Nixon, or even Curtiss LeMay did that!

But that’s exactly what happened in 2016. That’s established fact.

Defend it.

And what’s normal about inviting people who claim to be connected to people high in the Russians government into your campaign headquarters in the middle of an election?

That’s what happened. Defend it.

And, thanks to the now convicted Roger Stone, we know that Stone ran an ongoing campaign to insert Russian produced disinformation and compromat into the American news cycle, courtesy of Moscow.

Defend that.

Trump just abruptly abandoned US commitments in the Middle East, clearing the way for the Russians to consolidate their sphere of influence in The Levant, and to strengthen it’s growing ties with Turkey.

Defend that betrayal too. That one is a particularly black stain on American honor.

Trump obviously did his best to submarine congressionally approved missle sales to Ukraine.

The record on that will be irrefutable by the end of the week.

And how did two Russian bag men get in the middle of Trump “diplomacy”, and who is actually paying them?

Trump did away with sanctions against Putin’s buddy, Oleg Deripashka. McConnell let him get away with it.

There’s another one for you to make excuses for.

And, finally, why has the Trump team worked so diligently to make sure that Congress took no actions at all to tighten the laws in election interference?

What’s your excuse for that.

I can't refute tin foil hat stuff. You refute that there have never been aliens who visited our planet. You can't.

 

[JasperL]

you are not correct. the 2/3rd is based on the entire senate not just those present.

Explainer: What it would take for Congress to impeach Trump - Reuters
The Senate now has 53 Republicans, 45 Democrats and two independents who usually vote with the Democrats. Conviction and removal of a president would require 67 votes. So, for Trump to be removed from office via impeachment, at least 20 Republicans and all the Democrats and independents would have to vote against him.

if a person in the senate is not present then it means that they vote is abstained.

trump is far from screwed based on people with any knowledge of the phone call.
making stuff up has no bearing on facts. opinion has no bearing on facts.

From the Constitution, Article I, section 3: The Constitution of the United States: A Transcription | National Archives

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

 

[Moderate Right]

It bothers the democrats that Trump might have told another country to get involved in our politics, and that he withheld aid, with evidence that there was a connection, which may violate the law. It doesn’t bother you. Got it. But I predict that if this week’s testimony clearly underlines the allegations of last week, it may bother a few republicans as well. How bad can a President Pence be, after all?

Your side has drunken the kool aid jug bone dry. Not even any fumes are left. You've lost the handful of Republicans you had in the first place who now see the Democrats for the sham investigation they are running.

 

[Moderate Right]

Quid pro quo is literally "this for that" in English. This for that engagement with the leader of a foreign country contrary to the National Security Interests of the United States and FOR the personal political of the President is Bribery/extortion on a grand scale.

You are behind the times. Democrats already had a meeting and decided that quid pro quo is not an impeachable offense so now they are calling it bribery. Apparently you didn't get the memo.

 

[jnug]

You are behind the times. Democrats already had a meeting and decided that quid pro quo is not an impeachable offense so now they are calling it bribery. Apparently you didn't get the memo.

You have a reading and comprehension deficiency don't you.

The Dems have simply chosen to use plain English as opposed to Latin though many Americans are as deficient in plain English as they are in Latin.

 

[Moderate Right]

You have a reading and comprehension deficiency don't you.

The Dems have simply chosen to use plain English as opposed to Latin though many Americans are as deficient in plain English as they are in Latin.

LOL. Believe what you believe. I'm sure you believe that Republican Senators will vote to remove Trump from office. Hey, I understand. I really do. This is the only hope you have in life. You can't even believe that Trump will be voted out of office in 2020 so you have to go down the impeachment road and clinging to nothing but hope.

 

[jnug]

LOL. Believe what you believe. I'm sure you believe that Republican Senators will vote to remove Trump from office. Hey, I understand. I really do. This is the only hope you have in life. You can't even believe that Trump will be voted out of office in 2020 so you have to go down the impeachment road and clinging to nothing but hope.

I don't believe Senate Republicans will vote for Removal in sufficient numbers to Remove. However that is not out of the question given the depth and breadth of the evidence building against Fat Donald and his criminal gang. I do believe that the Repug party comes out of this so damaged that worst case for Trumpkin is that he gets nailed in 2020 and any Repug that decides to float along on the Trumpkin party boat till the bitter end goes off the Falls with him.

Nothing offered to date justifies Fat Donald sending his gang of thugs to Ukraine for any purpose that can be reasonably argued had anything to do with US Foreign Policy.

 

[Trump]

Two dems out of 235. Good, you go with that. See where it gets you.

and you're so sure yet you're "facts" couldn't convince 2 GOP to go along with impeachment inquiry vote.:shrug:

 

[jnug]

and you're so sure yet you're "facts" couldn't convince 2 GOP to go along with impeachment inquiry vote.:shrug:

Just shows you the desperation with which what is left of the GOP is attached to Fat Donald's coattails.

 

[Moderate Right]

I don't believe Senate Republicans will vote for Removal in sufficient numbers to Remove. However that is not out of the question given the depth and breadth of the evidence building against Fat Donald and his criminal gang. I do believe that the Repug party comes out of this so damaged that worst case for Trumpkin is that he gets nailed in 2020 and any Repug that decides to float along on the Trumpkin party boat till the bitter end goes off the Falls with him.

Nothing offered to date justifies Fat Donald sending his gang of thugs to Ukraine for any purpose that can be reasonably argued had anything to do with US Foreign Policy.

There is no evidence. It's all everyone's opinions. Even Yovanovich said Trump didn't commit bribery or any other crime and that's supposed to be one of your star witnesses.

 

[jnug]

There is no evidence. It's all everyone's opinions. Even Yovanovich said Trump didn't commit bribery or any other crime and that's supposed to be one of your star witnesses.

You have a nice time sleeping on that one this week. It will be progressively more difficult to put your head in the sand and cover your ears with your hands.

 

[JasperL]

There is no evidence. It's all everyone's opinions. Even Yovanovich said Trump didn't commit bribery or any other crime and that's supposed to be one of your star witnesses.

She didn't say that.

And what she testified to was a dishonest smear campaign run by Rudy and his thug BFFs, now indicted, Parnas and Fruman, fronting for another thug, Firtash, already under indictment, who apparently didn't like that Yovanovitch was calling out another thug, PG Lutsenko, for his corrupt thuggery. It's part of what got Zelenskyy elected is the former president keeping corrupt people like Lutsenko in office.

 

[jnug]

She didn't say that.

And what she testified to was a dishonest smear campaign run by Rudy and his thug BFFs, now indicted, Parnas and Fruman, fronting for another thug, Firtash, already under indictment, who apparently didn't like that Yovanovitch was calling out another thug, PG Lutsenko, for his corrupt thuggery. It's part of what got Zelenskyy elected is the former president keeping corrupt people like Lutsenko in office.

Oh come now...lets not forget to mention the whole Trump Ukraine gang:
Trump's gang:
- Drunken washed up and in serious need of a steady stream of big bucks Rudy
- Mobbed up, indicted Lev running front in Ukraine to get Yovanovitch recalled and hustle some gas deals
- Mobbed up, indicted Igor running front in Ukraine to get Yovanovitch recalled and hustle some gas deals
- Idiot, bought his EU Ambassadorship Sondland who has got to be the biggest buffoon on the planet who apparently thinks he was assigned the role of blowhard. He performed admirably.
- Perry, handling the US end of gas deals for Trumpkin campaign contributors
- Convicted SCUMBAG Manaford in prison
- Firbish trying desperately to avoid extradition from Austria for trial in the US

 

[JasperL]

Oh come now...lets not forget to mention the whole Trump Ukraine gang:
Trump's gang:
- Drunken washed up and in serious need of a steady stream of big bucks Rudy
- Mobbed up, indicted Lev running front in Ukraine to get Yovanovitch recalled and hustle some gas deals
- Mobbed up, indicted Igor running front in Ukraine to get Yovanovitch recalled and hustle some gas deals
- Idiot, bought his EU Ambassadorship Sondland who has got to be the biggest buffoon on the planet who apparently thinks he was assigned the role of blowhard. He performed admirably.
- Perry, handling the US end of gas deals for Trumpkin campaign contributors
- Convicted SCUMBAG Manaford in prison
- Firbish trying desperately to avoid extradition from Austria for trial in the US

Don't forget Toensing and diGenova! They're now officially representing Firtash, and from what we know also pushing some of that nonsense in Ukraine. Remember it was Firtash who got Shokin to produce that hilarious "affidavit" that blames Joe Biden for just about everything that ever went wrong in Ukraine and pimped by John Solomon, who you also left off! T and diG got a personal meeting apparently with Barr his own self to make the case for letting Firtash skate. Barr apparently said 'go away you freaks' so that's a good thing, I guess.

 

[trouble13]

Sure, it might be "political suicide" but only because it's not the GOP any more but the Trump party. We all know that, and it's part of what's so wrong about the political environment right now.

Its not Trumps party. The republican party had a war within and the tea party types began reshaping the party by removing establishment republicans. Trump is just the latest evolution for which sect inside the party has control. Your issue isnt with Trump as much as it is with people like myself who put him in office.

It's true enough that Democrats are desperate to get rid of Trump,

Of course they are he isnt just in the way of their agenda he is dismantling pieces of it that they worked really hard to accomplish.

but when he does things like use his personal attorney as the combination of AG and Sec of State in Ukraine, there's a reason for it. When Rudy conspires with a couple of thugs, who also met with Trump and Rudy, to undermine a sitting U.S. Ambassador, that's actually bad. Maybe not impeachable, but it's unacceptable.

I find that entire line of reasoning disingenious for the simple fact that the Democrats have been calling for his impeachment long before any of these issues came to light. This latest thing is just an argument they think they can make stick and they decided to toll the dice. Maybe it will, maybe it wont. We shall see but im not buying for one minute its as bad as they portray it as.

We should be able to agree on that.

It may very well be a case of Trump using dirty politics against Biden. He played dirty to win the nominee. I completely reject the notion that he isnt a politican but an outsider. He is a political animal who plays dirty and rough. He is a SOB.

Let's put it another way - do you think if instead of Trump doing all this it was Hillary that the GOP vote would be unanimously against impeachment? I suspect that the votes would not quite flip, but surely no one being honest would predict that the GOP in the House and Senate would unanimously vote AGAINST impeachment and removal...

Its fair to point that out but your only pointing out half the scenerio. Do you think any of the Democrats would break with their party to vote for impeaching a democrat president accussed of the same things?



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[TomFitz]

Scaming and corruption are the tools of his trade.

I’ve been around the commercial real estate and construction industries all my life.

I knew exactly who, and what, Donald Trump was over thirty years ago.

And not everyone who develops real estate is a crook,

But, if you’ve been in the business for even a short time, the crooks and con man make themselves known.

And Trump is a practitionaer of all the sleazeball tactics. The only reason he wasn’t put out of business by 1992, was the money he inherited and the fact that his dad signed the personal guarantees.

 

[Moderate Right]

You have a nice time sleeping on that one this week. It will be progressively more difficult to put your head in the sand and cover your ears with your hands.

I really don't understand why it is so important for those on the left to live 24/7 fantasies.

 

[jnug]

I really don't understand why it is so important for those on the left to live 24/7 fantasies.

Really...Square the assignment of the Trump gang with anything that has anything to do with actual US Foreign Policy

Trump's gang:
- Drunken washed up and in serious need of a steady stream of big bucks Rudy
- Mobbed up, indicted Lev running front in Ukraine to get Yovanovitch recalled and hustle some gas deals
- Mobbed up, indicted Igor running front in Ukraine to get Yovanovitch recalled and hustle some gas deals
- Idiot, bought his EU Ambassadorship Sondland who has got to be the biggest buffoon on the planet who apparently thinks he was assigned the role of blowhard while peddling the public announcement from Zalinski for a WH meeting deal. He performed admirably.
- Perry, handling the US end of gas deals for Trumpkin campaign contributors
- Convicted SCUMBAG Manaford in prison actually participating FROM PRISON
- Firbish trying desperately to avoid extradition from Austria for trial in the US

Go ahead...try to square that bunch of goons functioning in the shadows as having ANYTHING to do with legitimate US Foreign Policy in Ukraine.

 

[Moderate Right]

She didn't say that.

And what she testified to was a dishonest smear campaign run by Rudy and his thug BFFs, now indicted, Parnas and Fruman, fronting for another thug, Firtash, already under indictment, who apparently didn't like that Yovanovitch was calling out another thug, PG Lutsenko, for his corrupt thuggery. It's part of what got Zelenskyy elected is the former president keeping corrupt people like Lutsenko in office.

YouTube

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Translation: Trump has done nothing to be impeached over, we just want to politicize nonsense to score political points.

You seem silly when you try to minimize what Trump did. Maybe if we have a Democratic president he should call up Putin and offer him sanctions relief in exchange for an "investigation" of former President Trump and his family. Let's if you still think it's nothing wrong then.

I've stopped wasting my time arguing against absurd positions like yours.

Trump should just admit what he did and apologize and I'm fine with moving on to the election. But he's obstructing and refusing to provide documents like a crook.

It must suck to support corruption like you do. You should move to Ukraine.

 

[jnug]

You seem silly when you try to minimize what Trump did. Maybe if we have a Democratic president he should call up Putin and offer him sanctions relief in exchange for an "investigation" of former President Trump and his family. Let's if you still think it's nothing wrong then.

I've stopped wasting my time arguing against absurd positions like yours.

Trump should just admit what he did and apologize and I'm fine with moving on to the election. But he's obstructing and refusing to provide documents like a crook.

It must suck to support corruption like you do. You should move to Ukraine.

As Swalwell just said,"Innocent people don't try to intimidate and denigrate witnesses"