How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?[W:59]

[Henrin]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Ladies and gentlemen, rape culture right here. Henrin has erected the perfect example:

Women cannot express their sexuality or be sexual creatures without being objectified. If they express their sexuality and end up objectified then it's their own fault, not at all the fault of the men who objectified them, no, men really can't control that. If women don't want to be objectified then they should make damn sure they avoid the male gaze by covering up and not drawing attention to themselves.

Again, they are doing it themselves and men are responding in the way the woman wants.

And guess what, once you start to objectify a person, undermine their autonomy, and then go the extra step to say they brought it on themselves.....then doing bad things to them, and justifying the bad things other people do to them, becomes much easier.

Please. Saying women objectivity themselves with how they dress isn't promoting rape. It's just saying that the women are getting the attention from men that they showed they wanted through their behavior. A woman doesn't decide to pick the yoga pants that best shows her camel toe because she doesn't want attention from men, but because she wants all the boys in the yard to take notice of her. If she turns around all ****ing stupid like and declares the attention is unwanted then frankly she is just a confused bitch that is causing mass confusion. If anything that woman needs to dress in a way that sends the message she wants everyone to pick up, not dress like a ****ing whore when she doesn't want people to see her as a whore.

Now I dont expect any of this to actualy convince or make a different to ole Henrin here himself, he is obviously completely beyond reason, but I would like other more reasonable people to look at this man, look at the things he says, and see an embodiment of what people are talking about when they talk about sexism and rape culture and how these things still exist and are a problem.

Perhaps when you dress a certain way that says whore everyone will pick up on that and think whore. The way you decide to present yourself has a direct effect on how people will respond to you. That's just the way life is for men and women.

Here is a man who will say that women should have no say on what men do, that a man has no reason to even begin to care what women think. He will brag about not living with women anymore because they are picky about how he cleans the toilet. He will berate other men and call them faggo*ts and not real men because he disapproves of their pant size and how they groom their pubes. He will openly mock a young man at the gym for doing glute exercises because apparently doing butt exercises makes you a sissy or a f*g and then feels the need to come to an online forum and brag about having put that person in their place. He will insist that women invite, no not invite, practically demand objectification if they dare to dress sexy or express their sexuality, and that the consequences of that are things they brought on themselves.

I'm just so terribly non-pc. :mrgreen:

He is a walking embodiment of Toxic Masculinity (Boys have to wear certain hair styles and certain cloths and do only certain exercises at the gym or they deserve to be mocked and called f*gs) Fragile Masculinity (Things like tight pants and pubic grooming are an affront to manliness itself) Fragile Male Ego (having to clean a toilet the way my loved one wants is insufferable and cannot be lived with) Condescension to Women (Why should a man even begin to care what a woman thinks) and Objectification of Women (If women dress sexy men can't help but objectify them, they bring it on themselves)

She was a demanding bitch in the end and I left her. :shrug:

If you think supporting and defending gender roles and standards is toxic masculinity then so be it.

It should not take an incredible stretch of the imagination to see that a world with millions of Henrins in it, a world with a bunch of people that hold specific ideals of ultra masculinity, who will shame and mock and yell "fagg*t" at men who don't meet that standard, and who actively dismiss, belittle, and objectify women, how this kind of behavior and cultural standard might, juuust might, lead to an environment that makes sexual assault significantly more likely to occur, and significantly more likely to be minimized or dismissed when it does happen.

Dismissing women would be crazy. Oh right, you mean dismissing their opinions. Well, that depends on what we are talking about.

 

[Bodi]

If that's how you think a productive conversation goes then ok, I will keep that in mind for future interactions with you.

And yeah, there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence and argument to be made for rape culture, if you are really interested we can have that discussion, I am pefectly willing to go into it with any good faith participant, but if you aren't even willing to imagine or speculate about what might change your mind, not even hypothetically engage with the concept, then I suspect the conversation would be fruitless.

It is fruitless because you made a claim and then have refused to back it up with evidence.

Not my fault you can't debate worth a damn... *shrugs*

 

[Bodi]

So, I spent some time over the weekend in the company of people who, I do not know if they would call themselves MRAs, but they were definitely from the "feminism is BS, Feminism victimizes Men, Feminism seeks to turn men into cucks and betas, Feminism wants to weaken and socially displace Men, Feminism is the root of practically every problem for the modern male" school. I'm sure you know the type, and they really seemed to feel it deeply. They were resentful and angry at women that mad manipulated them into terrible relationships or dragged them along and used them or who got years worth of friendship out of them while making them feel the might have a chance but they never got any sex, or who made them feel ashamed for being a man and made them feel lost and helpless in the world etc etc etc, I'm sure you've all heard these things before as well.

So I didn’t argue with these guys, I just listened and probed, just listed and asked questions and nodded. And the prevailing theme seems to be that everything is women’s fault. It's women's fault they’re broke and women's fault their kid's dont speak to them and women's fault they have emotional issues its women's fault they drink it women’s fault they got that DUI, its women’s fault they don’t know what to do with their life. Women are bitches and shouldn’t be trusted and are only a pair and tits and ass and good for a **** them leave them, and it’s women’s fault they talk that way about women because of the way previous women victimized them.

So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

I'm not an old salt, but I'm by no means a spring chicken either. I'm 30 and I've had plenty of relationships that ranged from one night stands up to full on cohabitating multi-year pseudo marriage and everything in between. I've had good relationships that made everything seem better and bad ones that gut you and require you to rebuild once they are over. All that jazz.

But I have hardly ever felt victimized even by a woman in particular and never felt victimized by women as a gender in general. I have never felt like I needed to feel ashamed for being a man. I have never felt like I have been displaced or had my masculine identity or social place undermined or threatened. I have never felt particularly manipulated or tricked or deceived by women. All of these experiences that these MRAish types go on and on about are just utterly foreign to me.

That is not to say I've never known crummy dishonest manipulative vain greedy women, of course I have, but not like, more so than men, not more so than just the average fact that occasionally in your life you come across such people. I certainly have never felt like women or feminists as some sort of coalition have wronged me in any way.

How is it that all of these men feel so oppressed and victimized by women and feminism, when I have never felt that way? How have I never run into these, apparently, incredibly personally affecting gender dynamics these guys all seem to have themselves wrapped up in knots over?

Am I just incredibly lucky? Do I just surround myself with a higher caliber of person and therefore don't usually end up romantically entangled with those types of people?

Or is it maybe that these resentful butt hurt old boys club is blind to the fact that they are their own biggest problem. I encounter the exact same social landscape they do, in fact most of my friends are liberal so I probably encounter even more of these ultra feminist types than they do, and yet I do not have these problems....that would indicate either there is something particularly special about me (which I don't think there is) or these guys are actually their own problem without realizing it.

And it can’t just be that I am not old enough or have not been in enough relationships for the true ugly side of women to have shown themselves to me. I know plenty of SUPER salty MRA types younger than I. And many who are older than I but have had fewer relationships. And plenty of old men who live their whole lives never getting this anti-women saltiness.

You did not avoid being indoctrinated... which is a form of victimization, so no... you did not avoid being victimized by feminism,.

 

[jimithyashford]

You did not avoid being indoctrinated... which is a form of victimization, so no... you did not avoid being victimized by feminism,.

What was I indoctrinated to believe? Please do tell.

 

[jimithyashford]

It is fruitless because you made a claim and then have refused to back it up with evidence.

Not my fault you can't debate worth a damn... *shrugs*

Revealing your standards for evidence is incredibly common in debate. Being upfront about what it would take to change your mind, about your standards for falsefiability, is a very common expectation and in fact in many debates or persuasive pieces is offered up front as part of opening statements, its not even something the other guy has to ask for. Thats not some weird or outlandish requirement I am just making up here, its very common. I don't understand why you are treating it as some ridiculous stunt on my part or some sort of weakness.

I completely understand if you personally don't find standards of evidence or entertaining the contrary hypothetical to be something you want to do, but don't act like I'm some dummy or weirdo for bringing it up, it's kinda something you learn about in Debate 101. Its generally regarded by most people who engage in this kind of thing to be a very useful exercise to narrow down debates to only the specific points the participating parties will find compelling, and not spending ages arguing past each other about stuff the other person never cared about in the first place.

Again, if you personally don't like arguing that way, ok whatever, but it's very useful, and you could have just supplied your standards for evidence 6 exchanges ago and we could be deep into the actual topic by now. But you insist that you don't want to. Whatever.

 

[grip]

So, I spent some time over the weekend in the company of people who, I do not know if they would call themselves MRAs, but they were definitely from the "feminism is BS, Feminism victimizes Men, Feminism seeks to turn men into cucks and betas, Feminism wants to weaken and socially displace Men, Feminism is the root of practically every problem for the modern male" school. I'm sure you know the type, and they really seemed to feel it deeply. They were resentful and angry at women that mad manipulated them into terrible relationships or dragged them along and used them or who got years worth of friendship out of them while making them feel the might have a chance but they never got any sex, or who made them feel ashamed for being a man and made them feel lost and helpless in the world etc etc etc, I'm sure you've all heard these things before as well.

So I didn’t argue with these guys, I just listened and probed, just listed and asked questions and nodded. And the prevailing theme seems to be that everything is women’s fault. It's women's fault they’re broke and women's fault their kid's dont speak to them and women's fault they have emotional issues its women's fault they drink it women’s fault they got that DUI, its women’s fault they don’t know what to do with their life. Women are bitches and shouldn’t be trusted and are only a pair and tits and ass and good for a **** them leave them, and it’s women’s fault they talk that way about women because of the way previous women victimized them.

So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

I'm not an old salt, but I'm by no means a spring chicken either. I'm 30 and I've had plenty of relationships that ranged from one night stands up to full on cohabitating multi-year pseudo marriage and everything in between. I've had good relationships that made everything seem better and bad ones that gut you and require you to rebuild once they are over. All that jazz.

But I have hardly ever felt victimized even by a woman in particular and never felt victimized by women as a gender in general. I have never felt like I needed to feel ashamed for being a man. I have never felt like I have been displaced or had my masculine identity or social place undermined or threatened. I have never felt particularly manipulated or tricked or deceived by women. All of these experiences that these MRAish types go on and on about are just utterly foreign to me.

That is not to say I've never known crummy dishonest manipulative vain greedy women, of course I have, but not like, more so than men, not more so than just the average fact that occasionally in your life you come across such people. I certainly have never felt like women or feminists as some sort of coalition have wronged me in any way.

How is it that all of these men feel so oppressed and victimized by women and feminism, when I have never felt that way? How have I never run into these, apparently, incredibly personally affecting gender dynamics these guys all seem to have themselves wrapped up in knots over?

Am I just incredibly lucky? Do I just surround myself with a higher caliber of person and therefore don't usually end up romantically entangled with those types of people?

Or is it maybe that these resentful butt hurt old boys club is blind to the fact that they are their own biggest problem. I encounter the exact same social landscape they do, in fact most of my friends are liberal so I probably encounter even more of these ultra feminist types than they do, and yet I do not have these problems....that would indicate either there is something particularly special about me (which I don't think there is) or these guys are actually their own problem without realizing it.

And it can’t just be that I am not old enough or have not been in enough relationships for the true ugly side of women to have shown themselves to me. I know plenty of SUPER salty MRA types younger than I. And many who are older than I but have had fewer relationships. And plenty of old men who live their whole lives never getting this anti-women saltiness.

Victimization in this instance is more from allowing it in the first place.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

What are you talking about.......I really hope you aren't going where I think you're going, but really damn near anything down that road is gross.

Care to elaborate or explain what exactly is wrong with the notion of the enthusiastic yes?

Human sexuality tends to be gross, as in "if it is not regularly gross for you then you are not doing it right".

But you dont know that little, so why would I bother to attempt to teach you anything?

 

[calamity]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

You have to learn to pick up on the warning signs of crazy to avoid that crap. I have never been in a realtionship with a crazy bitch because I'm good at picking up on the crazy.

Crazy is good in bed. It's a twisted trick nature plays on us. I am convinced of it.

 

[calamity]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Yes, men are less crazy.

Men kill far more women who try to leave them than vice versa.

 

[jimithyashford]

Victimization in this instance is more from allowing it in the first place.

Allowing what?

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Human sexuality tends to be gross, as in "if it is not regularly gross for you then you are not doing it right".

But you dont know that little, so why would I bother to attempt to teach you anything?

No, I'm not asking for a biology course. I am asking you what your "other methods" for getting a women to have sex with you other than enthusiastic consent are. Or did I misunderstand your statement?

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Men kill far more women who try to leave them than vice versa.

Yeah, you are WAAAAAY more likely to be kill/beatup/otherwise hurt by a jilted male lover than a female one, like not even close. Not that a jilted women assaulting or killing or raping a guy is unheard of, it does happen, but as far as frequency goes, not even in the same ball park.

 

[calamity]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Yeah, you are WAAAAAY more likely to be kill/beatup/otherwise hurt by a jilted male lover than a female one, like not even close. Not that a jilted women assaulting or killing or raping a guy is unheard of, it does happen, but as far as frequency goes, not even in the same ball park.

Correct. Which is why it's easy for a guy to miss the warning signs when he draws the short straw. Your natural inclination is to go, "No way," and deny the threat, since it is so rare. But, it certainly happens. It just happens 100--maybe even a 1000--X more often when males are the jilted party.

 

[grip]

Allowing what?

The statement is self explanatory.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Crazy is good in bed. It's a twisted trick nature plays on us. I am convinced of it.

So is playing with power, an inconvenient truth the feminists can be counted on to deny till the cows come home.

 

[calamity]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

So is playing with power, an inconvenient truth the feminists can be counted on to deny till the cows come home.

I marry redheads, usually with just enough blonde in them to mask the crazy at first sight. So I've become very good at picking up on the signs of approaching danger....and sleeping with one eye open.

My only nightmare of feminists would have to include imagining an army of redheads marching in the streets demanding something....well, crazy.

 

[jimithyashford]

The statement is self explanatory.

You said I allowed "it" in the first place, what is it? It could mean a million things. I talked about many things in that post, what is the "it" you are referring to?

 

[grip]

You said I allowed "it" in the first place, what is it? It could mean a million things. I talked about many things in that post, what is the "it" you are referring to?

Victimization.

 

[Bodi]

Revealing your standards for evidence is incredibly common in debate. Being upfront about what it would take to change your mind, about your standards for falsefiability, is a very common expectation and in fact in many debates or persuasive pieces is offered up front as part of opening statements, its not even something the other guy has to ask for. Thats not some weird or outlandish requirement I am just making up here, its very common. I don't understand why you are treating it as some ridiculous stunt on my part or some sort of weakness.

I completely understand if you personally don't find standards of evidence or entertaining the contrary hypothetical to be something you want to do, but don't act like I'm some dummy or weirdo for bringing it up, it's kinda something you learn about in Debate 101. Its generally regarded by most people who engage in this kind of thing to be a very useful exercise to narrow down debates to only the specific points the participating parties will find compelling, and not spending ages arguing past each other about stuff the other person never cared about in the first place.

Again, if you personally don't like arguing that way, ok whatever, but it's very useful, and you could have just supplied your standards for evidence 6 exchanges ago and we could be deep into the actual topic by now. But you insist that you don't want to. Whatever.

You asked for what I wanted in order to change my mind and I said: EVIDENCE

I said give me evidence that the USA has a culture of rape. You have provided ZERO EVIDENCE.

That is something else that is learned in Debating 101. The fact that you asked for my standard was not strange or ridiculous. The fact that you will simply not offer anything to back up your claim is what is ridiculous.

Offer something. Anything as evidence. One thing. WE could have been deep into the actual topic if you just made your case too... in court the Judge says, "prosecution, begin your case" and what the prosecution does NOT do is ask the Jury or Judge what they want to see... they just present their case... with evidence. this is very VERY basic.

 

[Bodi]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Yeah, you are WAAAAAY more likely to be kill/beatup/otherwise hurt by a jilted male lover than a female one, like not even close. Not that a jilted women assaulting or killing or raping a guy is unheard of, it does happen, but as far as frequency goes, not even in the same ball park.

Yes it is. About 2 in 5 domestic abuse victims are men. That means that 3 in 5 are women. That is nit "not even close". That is close.

This is in England.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

In the United States "According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence."

CDC Study: More Men than Women Victims of Partner Abuse » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments

What is most important here for you to learn is this. I provided evidence. I did not ask you what you wanted... I just gave facts. See how that works? I hope so.

 

[Bodi]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Correct. Which is why it's easy for a guy to miss the warning signs when he draws the short straw. Your natural inclination is to go, "No way," and deny the threat, since it is so rare. But, it certainly happens. It just happens 100--maybe even a 1000--X more often when males are the jilted party.

Incorrect... see above post.

 

[calamity]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Incorrect... see above post.

Partner abuse is not being murdered. I was referring to what matters: being killed or put into the hospital. And, rare is a woman killing her estranged man or putting him in the hospital. But, tis all too common in the reverse.

As for woman attacking men....hell, I have been married to three redheads. I know all about that ****. But, seriously, not ever did I receive as much as a scratch...well, except the time the ashtray actually hit me.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Yes it is. About 2 in 5 domestic abuse victims are men. That means that 3 in 5 are women. That is nit "not even close". That is close.

This is in England.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

In the United States "According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence."

CDC Study: More Men than Women Victims of Partner Abuse » SAVE: Stop Abusive and Violent Environments

What is most important here for you to learn is this. I provided evidence. I did not ask you what you wanted... I just gave facts. See how that works? I hope so.

I think we should factor in the emotional abuse too, then it looks pretty even up to me.

This is one of the many reasons that the Violence Against Women Act needs a new name...pronto!

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Men kill far more women who try to leave them than vice versa.

I think you missed the joke.

 

[calamity]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I think we should factor in the emotional abuse too, then it looks pretty even up to me.

This is one of the many reasons that the Violence Against Women Act needs a new name...pronto!

lol...yeah, teh poor defenseless menz.