How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?[W:59]

[Hawkeye10]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I mean, I have seen men make women uncomfortable, I have seen men rejected. Heck I'm not a total playboy or anything, I've been rejected. But usually when I have seen men make women uncomfortable it was because they were being very aggressive or creepy and the women was, rightfully, uncomfortable. I mean if a guy is just trying to strike up a conversation at the water cooler with a girl he fancies and they are talking about I dunno Logan and chinese food and its all normal and above board and she runs off and tells HC that he was making her really uncomfortable, well that would be ridiculous and uncalled for. But I've worked in HC, and that is almost never the case. 90% of the time what others saw as just a guy talking normally to a girl at the water cooler about Logan is actually just the lasted instance in a long running case of him constantly trying to chat her up, taking his breaks at the same time as her to follow her around, always just so happening to run into her in the parking lot and constantly asking her out and making advances despite her repeat rejection and increasing discomfort and unease at this behavior.

I've seen a TON of these cases of a guy who just wont take the hint, or even the overt rejection, and just keeps hounding a girls steps and getting all up in her business and commenting on every single things she posts on facebook and liking her beach photos from 5 years ago at 2 am, **** like that. And yeah, the girl has the right to be uncomfortable, but to a person just witnessing one encounter in the lunch room it wouldn't seem he was doing anything strange.

I have heard anecdotes of the very rare occasional girl who is just totally unreasonable and reports a guy for nothing at all untoward, but ya know, women are just people and every once in a while one of them will be an unreasonable asshole, but that is the exception not the rule in my quite extensive experience dealing with such cases.

So that is my experience, care to expound on what these scenarios are where women are just cruel and victimize men for making them feel uncomfortable in a totally unreasonable silly feminist way?

I don't want to imply that such cases are non existent, again women are just people, and people sometimes over react or are unreasonable or are vindictive, etc. But I certainly have not seen that as being the norm, and in my HC time I certainly did not see MORE of that from women than men per se.

Guys being imbeciles with women is common and that does sorta play in here in the sense that in the old days women used to steer clear of those guys if they could, but if they were forced into it would make an attempt which was usually pretty good to let them leave with their pride in-tact. No more, they not only get turned away but turned away cruelly a lot more than used to happen, the lessor the man the more harshly he will be dealt with as a rule, women will way too often go out of their way to emotionally attack a guy because "men deserve it, we gotta stick up for women!".

No it is not every day, but when men are dealing with women and those men are in an emotionally vulnerable state in part because they have been trained to be because "we have to make absolutely sure that women are safe from males!" and get treated harshly it tends to sting.

Like rape in the mechanism though not entirely in degree .

 

[jimithyashford]

It is the way that you phrase things... you are talking to adults. Frame your comments accordingly.

It is easy to forget these are adults at times.

Why would I want to imagine a disgusting sexist sexual ownership that does not exist?

To entertain a hypothetical for the sake of demonstrating a point in a debate. This is a common practice in such discussions that is used to highlight and clarify points of disagreement to focus further discussion. It's basic Socratic Questioning.

Just provide THE EVIDENCE that it exists... what I think or know should be irrelevant to your evidence.

Well ya see, that's where you'd be wrong. When it comes to trying to actually convince people and meaningfully address their concerns and their worldview, knowing what they think/know/believe is usually absolutely necessary to make a compelling case. Again, this is not some weird thing I am just making up here, this is a very common practice in debate and discussion.

Many women want to be rescued and have a strong man want them and romance them...

I am talking about women in stories existing only as a form of treasure for the hero to acquire. Women who's primary function in the plot is to be won by the hero as booty, taken back to his homeland as spoils of conquest, or to reward him with sex as his prize. This is the objectification of a woman, which wouldn't be that big of a deal if it was just a little here and there, but given that it is extremely common, it's a bit of a bad sign.

What doe child birth interviews have to do with rape culture? :roll:

Part of rape culture, not the sum total mind you, but a part of it, is the idea that a woman's primary purpose and function is to be f*cked and make babies. Sure they can do lots of other things on the way to that goal, but that is the primary purpose, the real thing that their life revolves around. Get dicked, make a baby. So when we see a clear sign of the notion that a woman's primary function and concern is getting dicked and making babies, that is a sign of the problem we are discussion. Often times that difference is highlighted in the way people treat dad and moms differently after they have their first child, and the inherent assumptions about who's career/plan/dream is going to be primarily affected by the new child.

I worked in clubs and bars as a bartender for over 15 years and along with parties and clubs I have literally never ever heard people say that a raped girl was asking for it. I see people on internet forums say stupid things like that but never once in real life. I actually argue that it is a myth.

I have heard it lots of times, you say you've never heard it, I believe that because usually guys say that kind of stuff only around other guys (locker room talk and all that) so you might never have heard it, but I assure you it's quite common. How many examples do I need to go get for you to be convinced? I can go out there and find examples online right now. Hell I can probably find a lot of examples of guys making the "she was asking for it" argument right here on this forum.

Why should a man care about what other men think either? Are you arguing that other people should have a say in what people do or think and that the person being judged should give a ****?

I really don't have the patience to explain the basic concept of society and community to you right now. To put it as simply as possible, the idea of people having influence and a say on what other people do is kinda the key pillar of the whole concept of society and community. If you don't understand that then we need a whole other long conversation I just don't want to get into right now.

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Guys being imbeciles with women is common and that does sorta play in here in the sense that in the old days women used to steer clear of those guys if they could, but if they were forced into it would make an attempt which was usually pretty good to let them leave with their pride in-tact. No more, they not only get turned away but turned away cruelly a lot more than used to happen, the lessor the man the more harshly he will be dealt with as a rule, women will way too often go out of their way to emotionally attack a guy because "men deserve it, we gotta stick up for women!".

No it is not every day, but when men are dealing with women and those men are in an emotionally vulnerable state in part because they have been trained to be because "we have to make absolutely sure that women are safe from males!" and get treated harshly it tends to sting.

Like rape in the mechanism though not entirely in degree .

Can you provide an example of what this looks like in practice. I am just not seeing it. Again, I acknowledge up front that women are people and people are sometimes dicks and mean, I get that, but you seem to be implying that women do it especially frequently in these situations or their amount and/or frequency of meaness and cruelty in these situations is above that just normal background "people are sometimes assholes" level.

So can you paint me a picture of what this behavior that is so common looks like? Because yeah, I've seen the occasional asshole of a woman be really mean to a guy, just like I've seen asshole men be mean to women, but not like particularly or especially often.

 

[Bodi]

To entertain a hypothetical for the sake of demonstrating a point in a debate. This is a common practice in such discussions that is used to highlight and clarify points of disagreement to focus further discussion. It's basic Socratic Questioning.

I understand the method. The method is not necessary for you to present your argument though.

Well ya see, that's where you'd be wrong. When it comes to trying to actually convince people and meaningfully address their concerns and their worldview, knowing what they think/know/believe is usually absolutely necessary to make a compelling case. Again, this is not some weird thing I am just making up here, this is a very common practice in debate and discussion.

All my answering your question does is feed you with fuel to craft an argument... if you have valid evidence though my opinion is irrelevant to your argument being correct. Instead of delving this conversation into a philosophical one about the merits of debate why don't you just prove that the USA is a nation with a rape culture. Cool?

I am talking about women in stories existing only as a form of treasure for the hero to acquire. Women who's primary function in the plot is to be won by the hero as booty, taken back to his homeland as spoils of conquest, or to reward him with sex as his prize. This is the objectification of a woman, which wouldn't be that big of a deal if it was just a little here and there, but given that it is extremely common, it's a bit of a bad sign.

Yeah... some stories are about that. So what? Some stories about that prove that today's USA has a culture of rape? THAT is your argument?

Part of rape culture, not the sum total mind you, but a part of it, is the idea that a woman's primary purpose and function is to be f*cked and make babies. Sure they can do lots of other things on the way to that goal, but that is the primary purpose, the real thing that their life revolves around. Get dicked, make a baby. So when we see a clear sign of the notion that a woman's primary function and concern is getting dicked and making babies, that is a sign of the problem we are discussion.

Rape culture is about women having babies? Do you just make this **** up or have you actually thought about how stupid it sounds and post it anyway?

Often times that difference is highlighted in the way people treat dad and moms differently after they have their first child, and the inherent assumptions about who's career/plan/dream is going to be primarily affected by the new child.v

Rape culture is about the mom being able to access her career? Do you know how stupid all of your analogies and evidence sounds so far?

I have heard it lots of times, you say you've never heard it, I believe that because usually guys say that kind of stuff only around other guys (locker room talk and all that) so you might never have heard it, but I assure you it's quite common. How many examples do I need to go get for you to be convinced? I can go out there and find examples online right now. Hell I can probably find a lot of examples of guys making the "she was asking for it" argument right here on this forum.

Dude, I am a guy.

I also said that this is a phrase used by people online... not in real life.

I am/was a jock. I played 4 years of Varsity in two sports. I played in College. I was into Extreme Sport competition. I worked in bars. I have been to parties unlike you have ever seen except in the movies (with professional athletes, rock band stars, etc)... I have seen the drugs, the abuse and near rape like attitudes and actions of coked out drunk men abusing women... I ahve never heard anybody say that the girl deserved it. Sure, some sexist pigs say that kind of stuff... that does not make the USA a culture of rape by a long shot.

I really don't have the patience to explain the basic concept of society and community to you right now. To put it as simply as possible, the idea of people having influence and a say on what other people do is kinda the key pillar of the whole concept of society and community. If you don't understand that then we need a whole other long conversation I just don't want to get into right now.

You are not "explaining" anything to me, buster. Laws based on moral code is what society is built on. Not what people say... not what feminists think. Not what anybody thinks or says. When a moral becomes mainstream enough it becomes code, or law... official or unofficial.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I have consumed a lot, and I mean a LOT of MRA material. Spent a lot of time on their websites, their forums, their Youtube channels, reading their blogs and their self published e-novellas. I feel like I have a pretty good idea of the tone and demeanor and topics of MRAdom.

In my experience, there are a handful of legit issues that MRAs bring up: Family Courts favoring women, Male Rape and Abuse not being properly addressed, Suicide and substance abuse affecting men at higher rates, things like that. And those are real issues that do deserve real attention. But once you actually go to MRA spaces and start to consume MRA material....that is NOT what they spend their time talking about. These "real legit issues" are essentially the banners they wave to get people to come to their club, but then once you are in the clubhouse it's just page after page after page of overt sexism, pick up artist garbage, bitching about exes, and TONS of material complaining about feminists. And not complaining about feminists in way that feminism relates to family court and male abuse and whatnot, nope, just like like, 1 hundred blog article and a thousand forum pages about how Amy Schumer's latest stand up wasn't funny and she's a fat stupid bitch, good for a drunk **** but then you'd ditch her before she could start talking. **** like that.

Don't believe me, just google MRA, just Youtube MRA, find a few blogs, a few Youtube Channels, and few forums. You'll quickly realize that they all in their like mission statement post or their "what this channel is about" video will mention all of those "legit" men's issues, and then go on to spend ALL of their time bitching about women.

Hell in the first international MRA conference they had a few years ago, I think they had something like 20 speakers and not a SINGLE speech was about Family Court or male abuse. Not a single one. A couple of them mentioned it in passing as part of a list of issues in their speech opening before moving on to their real subject, but not a single speech was actually about any of these "legit" issues.


So that is the MRA culture that I have experienced, that I do not understand and cannot relate to. Maybe there is some pristine wonderful and totally reasonable MRA group out there that doesn't hate women at all and just strictly advocates for help and support for men on the issues that most impact them......maybe that group does exist, but I have yet to find them.

Bitching about/criticizing women /= hating women.
Fact of the matter is a lot of people find popular feminists distasteful and will make comments.
Many of which are mean and nasty, that however does not make the content of the MRA's any less valid.

If you can't relate, then why complain about them?
Sounds like you have an agenda, more than you have an issue relating.

 

[jimithyashford]

I understand the method. The method is not necessary for you to present your argument though.



All my answering your question does is feed you with fuel to craft an argument... if you have valid evidence though my opinion is irrelevant to your argument being correct. Instead of delving this conversation into a philosophical one about the merits of debate why don't you just prove that the USA is a nation with a rape culture. Cool?



Yeah... some stories are about that. So what? Some stories about that prove that today's USA has a culture of rape? THAT is your argument?



Rape culture is about women having babies? Do you just make this **** up or have you actually thought about how stupid it sounds and post it anyway?



Rape culture is about the mom being able to access her career? Do you know how stupid all of your analogies and evidence sounds so far?



Dude, I am a guy.

I also said that this is a phrase used by people online... not in real life.

I am/was a jock. I played 4 years of Varsity in two sports. I played in College. I was into Extreme Sport competition. I worked in bars. I have been to parties unlike you have ever seen except in the movies (with professional athletes, rock band stars, etc)... I have seen the drugs, the abuse and near rape like attitudes and actions of coked out drunk men abusing women... I ahve never heard anybody say that the girl deserved it. Sure, some sexist pigs say that kind of stuff... that does not make the USA a culture of rape by a long shot.




You are not "explaining" anything to me, buster. Laws based on moral code is what society is built on. Not what people say... not what feminists think. Not what anybody thinks or says. When a moral becomes mainstream enough it becomes code, or law... official or unofficial.

Ok, I think it is fairly clear you aren't interested in discussing this topic in a meaningful way. Since the common portrayal of women in literature and reproductive role of women in society are, apparently, completely irrelevant in your mind to the topic. I mean, I just don't know how to work with that. That's like talking to a fella about antisemitism who insists that Jews being portrayed as greedy villains in tons of books and movies is irrelevant to the question. If you really can't understand how these things are connected I just don't know where to start, it seems pretty intuitive a concept to grasp to me.

I guess all I have left to ask is this....what would it take to convince you? You don't think we live in a culture with some seriously harmful trends towards treating women as sex objects and minimizing the bodily and sexual autonomy of women, I get it, you do NOT think that is the society we live in. So what would need to be different? What kinds of things would need to start happening or what kinds of behaviors at what level of commonness would make you go "Yes, we do have a serious problem with the way we regard women and their sexual autonomy in this culture!"

I once asked a fella who insisted that there is no more racism in the USA what kind behavior he would need to see to get him to admit there was a racism problem. Basically he said that in order for him to concede a racism problem he would have to see broad scale national repression of blacks, reversal of key civil rights, and the re-emergence of full on lynchings or other anti-black violence, THAT is what he would need to see in order to admit that the USA had a racism problem. Which of course told me I was not dealing with a reasonable person. A person who will only acknowledge a discrimination exists when it is so extreme and in your face as to be impossible to deny, a person for whom discrimination is all or nothing, black and white, either an enormous obvious crisis or not a problem at all, that is not a person who is a reasonable participant in the conversation.

I suspect that is how you are with sexism and rape culture, that it would take full on wide scale completely obvious in your face constant and completely undeniable sexist and rape-prone conditions to get you to admit a problem with rape culture. Maybe I am wrong, maybe you will impress me and surprise me with a reasonable and nuanced answer, but I wont hold my breath.

 

[Bodi]

Ok, I think it is fairly clear you aren't interested in discussing this topic in a meaningful way. Since the common portrayal of women in literature and reproductive role of women in society are, apparently, completely irrelevant in your mind to the topic. I mean, I just don't know how to work with that. That's like talking to a fella about antisemitism who insists that Jews being portrayed as greedy villains in tons of books and movies is irrelevant to the question. If you really can't understand how these things are connected I just don't know where to start, it seems pretty intuitive a concept to grasp to me.

I guess all I have left to ask is this....what would it take to convince you? You don't think we live in a culture with some seriously harmful trends towards treating women as sex objects and minimizing the bodily and sexual autonomy of women, I get it, you do NOT think that is the society we live in. So what would need to be different? What kinds of things would need to start happening or what kinds of behaviors at what level of commonness would make you go "Yes, we do have a serious problem with the way we regard women and their sexual autonomy in this culture!"

I once asked a fella who insisted that there is no more racism in the USA what kind behavior he would need to see to get him to admit there was a racism problem. Basically he said that in order for him to concede a racism problem he would have to see broad scale national repression of blacks, reversal of key civil rights, and the re-emergence of full on lynchings or other anti-black violence, THAT is what he would need to see in order to admit that the USA had a racism problem. Which of course told me I was not dealing with a reasonable person. A person who will only acknowledge a discrimination exists when it is so extreme and in your face as to be impossible to deny, a person for whom discrimination is all or nothing, black and white, either an enormous obvious crisis or not a problem at all, that is not a person who is a reasonable participant in the conversation.

I suspect that is how you are with sexism and rape culture, that it would take full on wide scale completely obvious in your face constant and completely undeniable sexist and rape-prone conditions to get you to admit a problem with rape culture. Maybe I am wrong, maybe you will impress me and surprise me with a reasonable and nuanced answer, but I wont hold my breath.

Oh my God... :roll:

Dude, you said the USA was a nation with a Rape Culture.

Not a culture "with some problems"... but a nation with a CULTURE OF RAPE.

YOU . HAVE . NOT . PRODUCED . ANY . EVIDENCE . TO . PROVE . THIS . ASSERTION

As it stands now you lose the debate.

Anything else?

I guess all I have left to ask is this....what would it take to convince you?

Some evidence?

Not... some women in literature are for men to win, not what career a woman can have after childbirth, not any of the Red Herring Straw Man Bull**** that you have produced... ACTUAL EVIDENCE of a Culture of Rape in the United States of America. Not what happens at some parties or what some guys say in a locker room... actual evidence that Rape is part of the Culture of America. That Americans engage in and accept raping women as a part of our culture.

 

[TheGoverness]

Oh my God... :roll:

Dude, you said the USA was a nation with a Rape Culture.

Not a culture "with some problems"... but a nation with a CULTURE OF RAPE.

YOU . HAVE . NOT . PRODUCED . ANY . EVIDENCE . TO . PROVE . THIS . ASSERTION

As it stands now you lose the debate.

Anything else?

You haven't heard, Bodhi? Rape is the in thing this year.

 

[Bodi]

You haven't heard, Bodhi? Rape is the in thing this year.

Seriously...

...if there was a culture of raping women in the USA we would be called Saudi Arabia.

 

[jimithyashford]

Oh my God... :roll:

Dude, you said the USA was a nation with a Rape Culture.

Not a culture "with some problems"... but a nation with a CULTURE OF RAPE.

YOU . HAVE . NOT . PRODUCED . ANY . EVIDENCE . TO . PROVE . THIS . ASSERTION

As it stands now you lose the debate.

Anything else?



Some evidence?

Not... some women in literature are for men to win, not what career a woman can have after childbirth, not any of the Red Herring Straw Man Bull**** that you have produced... ACTUAL EVIDENCE of a Culture of Rape in the United States of America. Not what happens at some parties or what some guys say in a locker room... actual evidence that Rape is part of the Culture of America. That Americans engage in and accept raping women as a part of our culture.

I dunno what to tell you man, I can tell you things that I personally find compelling, but cultural trends and the conscious and unconscious internal motivations of people are not thing you can put on a scale or pass a current through and prove demonstrably. Surely you know that. I can give you evidence all day long until I am blue in the face, but if I have utterly no inkling of what your standard of evidence or threshold for compelling circumstance is, then I am basically just tossing dart blindly hoping to eventually hit a bullseye, and that's not a game I am eager to play.

If you will give me a notion of what your standards are and what levels of sexual objectification and rape-apologetic you would find unacceptable then I will happily give you meaningful and specific replies. If you are unable or unwilling to do so, then I am just playing shooting in the dark which is a waste of my time. I want to try and kick one between the goal posts and give you something to think about, but if you wont even show me where the goal posts are then we have no game.

And hell, for all I know, your standards for what would constitute a problem with rape culture are very very high and I actually cannot meet it, I don't want to spend a thousand exchanges just to learn I never could have convinced you in the first place. Give me a target to shoot at or stop pestering me to take a shot.


In my experience a person who categorically refuses to reveal what it would take to convince them is a person who has already made up their mind they wont be convinced but just doesn't want to say so.

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Bitching about/criticizing women /= hating women.
Fact of the matter is a lot of people find popular feminists distasteful and will make comments.
Many of which are mean and nasty, that however does not make the content of the MRA's any less valid.

If you can't relate, then why complain about them?
Sounds like you have an agenda, more than you have an issue relating.

I think you missed the point of my reply. The point of my reply is that those "legit" issues that MRAs have, like male abuse and family court and substance abuse and depression, etc, that those legit issues are just a masquerade, and not actually what MRA is all about, that when you actually get in among them you discover it's just a giant woman-hating bitch party. I think anyone who goes and spends time on MRA forums would have to concede that to be true.

And about this statement of yours: "Bitching about/criticizing women /= hating women"

I dunno about you Harry, but the way MRAs talk about women in those forums is in a manner that I only use to talk about my enemies and people I hate. I cannot imagine talking about anyone I didn't hate in the terms and tone and vitriol they use to talk about women. Again, I think anyone who just spends a little time on those forums would have to concede that to be true, "hateful" is for sure the prevailing tone of the conversation.

 

[trouble13]

I am willing to entertain that possibility. Could you elaborate on some ways that I might be getting ****ed without knowing it? I mean I know you don't know my personal situation, but to hear MRAs tell it these are wide scale giant problems impacts the majority of men, so at least a few of the general ones should apply to me, right? What might they be?

I would say if your allowing a woman to treat you as less than her equal then your being screwed even if it does not upset you.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[jimithyashford]

I would say if your allowing a woman to treat you as less than her equal then your being screwed even if it does not upset you.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Ok, and I have never done that. I mean I've run into a lot of jerks and arrogant people in my life who treat people as less than themselves, but I can't say I've met more women like that then men, in fact I would almost dare say I've met more arrogant men who tried to treat me as lesser than I have women in my life.

 

[CLAX1911]

So, I spent some time over the weekend in the company of people who, I do not know if they would call themselves MRAs, but they were definitely from the "feminism is BS, Feminism victimizes Men, Feminism seeks to turn men into cucks and betas, Feminism wants to weaken and socially displace Men, Feminism is the root of practically every problem for the modern male" school. I'm sure you know the type, and they really seemed to feel it deeply. They were resentful and angry at women that mad manipulated them into terrible relationships or dragged them along and used them or who got years worth of friendship out of them while making them feel the might have a chance but they never got any sex, or who made them feel ashamed for being a man and made them feel lost and helpless in the world etc etc etc, I'm sure you've all heard these things before as well.

So I didn’t argue with these guys, I just listened and probed, just listed and asked questions and nodded. And the prevailing theme seems to be that everything is women’s fault. It's women's fault they’re broke and women's fault their kid's dont speak to them and women's fault they have emotional issues its women's fault they drink it women’s fault they got that DUI, its women’s fault they don’t know what to do with their life. Women are bitches and shouldn’t be trusted and are only a pair and tits and ass and good for a **** them leave them, and it’s women’s fault they talk that way about women because of the way previous women victimized them.

So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

I'm not an old salt, but I'm by no means a spring chicken either. I'm 30 and I've had plenty of relationships that ranged from one night stands up to full on cohabitating multi-year pseudo marriage and everything in between. I've had good relationships that made everything seem better and bad ones that gut you and require you to rebuild once they are over. All that jazz.

But I have hardly ever felt victimized even by a woman in particular and never felt victimized by women as a gender in general. I have never felt like I needed to feel ashamed for being a man. I have never felt like I have been displaced or had my masculine identity or social place undermined or threatened. I have never felt particularly manipulated or tricked or deceived by women. All of these experiences that these MRAish types go on and on about are just utterly foreign to me.

That is not to say I've never known crummy dishonest manipulative vain greedy women, of course I have, but not like, more so than men, not more so than just the average fact that occasionally in your life you come across such people. I certainly have never felt like women or feminists as some sort of coalition have wronged me in any way.

How is it that all of these men feel so oppressed and victimized by women and feminism, when I have never felt that way? How have I never run into these, apparently, incredibly personally affecting gender dynamics these guys all seem to have themselves wrapped up in knots over?

Am I just incredibly lucky? Do I just surround myself with a higher caliber of person and therefore don't usually end up romantically entangled with those types of people?

Or is it maybe that these resentful butt hurt old boys club is blind to the fact that they are their own biggest problem. I encounter the exact same social landscape they do, in fact most of my friends are liberal so I probably encounter even more of these ultra feminist types than they do, and yet I do not have these problems....that would indicate either there is something particularly special about me (which I don't think there is) or these guys are actually their own problem without realizing it.

And it can’t just be that I am not old enough or have not been in enough relationships for the true ugly side of women to have shown themselves to me. I know plenty of SUPER salty MRA types younger than I. And many who are older than I but have had fewer relationships. And plenty of old men who live their whole lives never getting this anti-women saltiness.

I'm no fan of feminism, but I've never been a "victim" of it.

Best I can guess is that is in vogue for poeple to be a victim.

 

[Henrin]

I guess all I have left to ask is this....what would it take to convince you? You don't think we live in a culture with some seriously harmful trends towards treating women as sex objects

You mean that thing that second wave and now third wave feminists promote. What did they say when playboy started? Did they object to that magazine? No, they saw it as sexual libertarian. What do third wave feminists say about porn and women treating their bodies like objects today? Oh right, they promote that as sexual liberation. What do they think about people that say women should not dress in a whore uniform? Oh right, they consider those people sexists. What do third wave feminists think about hook up culture? Oh right, they're for that too. Tell me again how that **** is men's fault.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

[

Ok? I suppose liberal men that like tight jeans and man buns would know about that stuff. :shrug:

Twinks are young gay guys.

 

[Henrin]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

[


Twinks are young gay guys.

Learn something everyday. :lol:

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I think that sums it up right there.

Women should have no input on how men conduct themselves, you shouldn't even care what she thinks.......

I think you just might be sexist bro.

But I'll wait while you explain to me how not caring what women think and being perplexed that they should even have input on what men do is actually not sexist at all.

I think what bothers Henrin is that as men become more open to women's opinions the more their looks styles and attitudes change. And where women can find a guy that may do a few more things for women they won't go with a guy who won't.

But every trend has a counter. But maybe he sees to many beautiful women pick men that he would think are less masculine.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Can you provide an example of what this looks like in practice. I am just not seeing it. Again, I acknowledge up front that women are people and people are sometimes dicks and mean, I get that, but you seem to be implying that women do it especially frequently in these situations or their amount and/or frequency of meaness and cruelty in these situations is above that just normal background "people are sometimes assholes" level.

So can you paint me a picture of what this behavior that is so common looks like? Because yeah, I've seen the occasional asshole of a woman be really mean to a guy, just like I've seen asshole men be mean to women, but not like particularly or especially often.

Of course I can but I am not going to because if you think you need a dramatization of what a woman being emotionally cruel to a man looks like then I have no idea why I would be talking to you.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Learn something everyday. :lol:

Lol indeed.

You know you don't have to go along with all of this. Some women might even respect you for that. So men don't have to do what women think they should.

 

[Henrin]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I think what bothers Henrin is that as men become more open to women's opinions the more their looks styles and attitudes change. And where women can find a guy that may do a few more things for women they won't go with a guy who won't.

But every trend has a counter. But maybe he sees to many beautiful women pick men that he would think are less masculine.

Don't you think it is kind of weak to change yourself to get laid?

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Of course I can but I am not going to because if you think you need a dramatization of what a woman being emotionally cruel to a man looks like then I have no idea why I would be talking to you.

It seems to new that guys in abusive relationships with women tend to take it a lot longer. I wonder if it's the drive to mate.

 

[Henrin]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Lol indeed.

You know you don't have to go along with all of this. Some women might even respect you for that. So men don't have to do what women think they should.

Go along with what?

 

[Hawkeye10]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Lol indeed.

You know you don't have to go along with all of this. Some women might even respect you for that. So men don't have to do what women think they should.

Well mostly we do actually, the thing is what they want from us tends to be not what they say they want from us, that's the trick.

Find out what they really want...and learn to supply it....that's when the socks get blown off.

I KNOW

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Don't you think it is kind of weak to change yourself to get laid?

To get laid? Well changing to seek approval is a tad flag indicating a person that is easily manipulated. So weak in the fortitude department yes.

You know there are guys that are naturally effeminate right? Should they change themselves wouldn't that be just as weak?