How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?[W:59]

[blackjack50]

Yeah, neither of those things are feminism. The first is a war time propoganda poster used to recruit women to do manual labor jobs during times of war that they were to immediately vacate when men returned home,

What in the hell do you think that lead too? What? Rosie the riveter lived in an isolated society or something? Cause and effect. No Rosie, no equality.

the other is, I dunno what, some weird joke? I have literally never in my entire life heard any feminist say or endorse or express anything even remotely sorta kinda like that. I dunno what feminist told you that, I'd like to have a word with her, but I suspect she doesn't exist and some resentful guy made that up as a deliberate misrepresentation.

Maybe because you just agree blindly with someone who calls themselves a "feminist." Or maybe you just don't care to see the "other side?" Who knows. All you really need to do is go on to ANY college campus in America and listen to a bunch of young millennial aged girls bitch and moan about their "struggles." Ignoring some really important information.

Women More Likely Than Men to Get College Degree | Time.com


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[<alt>doxygen]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I've read a bit of MGTOW material and it seems to me that "Men Use Women For Sex Then Run" would be a better summation. The material I read basically advocated that if you want a women's affections for whatever reason, sex mostly but sometimes companionship, that you should use the woman for what you want as long as you want while being cautious to entwine none of your affairs so when you are done with her you can quickly leave without any complications and that men should not feel guilty about doing this. This particularly article also advocated that men ought to be able to opt out of parenthood if they get a girl pregnant, and as long as the child is not yet born, they should be able to sign a document that exempts them from any connection to or responsibility for the child so they can continue to go their own way and not be trapped by fatherhood.

Okay. That's patently absurd. I based what I said about them previously based on a quicky google that listed rather benign goals. I retract what I said about them. That sounds like 4th wave feminism for men, and from what I understand, women are only on the 3rd wave.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Second wave feminists technically hijacked the movement. I think if they kept on target and just stayed focused on rights things would have turned out better, but it became a movement with far reaching goals that stretched into everything that these women wanted from society.

The whole notion of rape culture though just pisses me off. If you know the history of this idea then you know that these women think men are all rapists and think men approve whenever a woman gets raped. These women think that men that go out and condemn it are just coming out for appearances so everyone doesn't know they're a rapist too. The reason they believe the sentences are too low is because men don't really want to punish other men for rape. This kind of stuff is really a good argument for why feminism is cancer to society.

The rape culture thing is where they lost me totally. I know that there are environments that are "rape culture", but that's not the norm and the whole "men are guilty by association" vibe is offensive.

I've had female friends who were date raped. I've also had male friends (2) whos girlfriends convinced them they were on the pill, then proceeded to get pregnant and try to force marriage. Lesson? There are loons about - read the signs. Run like hell. Most people, male and female aren't that and don't want any part of that.

 

[jimithyashford]

Then what do these "normal" feminists say about the rape culture?

Whoa Whoa Whoa, answer me this first, just real quick: Are you under the impression that "rape culture" means that all men are rapists, men cheer when women are raped, and that men don't like to punish other men for rape because they all secretly want to rape? Is that what you think rape culture means, and if so PLEASE link me to what site or article you got that idea from.

 

[Henrin]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Okay. That's patently absurd. I based what I said about them previously based on a quicky google that listed rather benign goals. I retract what I said about them. That sounds like 4th wave feminism for men, and from what I understand, women are only on the 3rd wave.

He is skipping over the reason for that mindset with that summation. These men avoid relationships with women because they find women in relationships make their life worse off. Sex however makes their better, so what these men end up doing is using the hook up culture advocated for by third wave feminists towards their goals. It makes perfect sense really. As it stands feminists motivated men to avoid relationships because they increased the demand on men while in them, while at the same time they motivated men to sleep around since they pushed for women to go that route. This is what happens when you don't understand human nature and start messing around with things.

 

[SCitizen]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

In my experience, there are a handful of legit issues that MRAs bring up: Family Courts favoring women, Male Rape and Abuse not being properly addressed, Suicide and substance abuse affecting men at higher rates, things like that. And those are real issues that do deserve real attention. But once you actually go to MRA spaces and start to consume MRA material....that is NOT what they spend their time talking about. These "real legit issues" are essentially the banners they wave to get people to come to their club, but then once you are in the clubhouse it's just page after page after page of overt sexism, pick up artist garbage, bitching about exes, and TONS of material complaining about feminists.

Strange as it is you are partially right.

In USSR 1977, the vast majority of people who criticized Communism were also professional thieves. Most law abiding people would not commit a felony of disagreeing with Communism. Most professional criminals would also violate Article 70 -- "Anti-Soviet Agitation". In 1991, normal people criticized Communism.

In USA 2017, anyone who advocates for male victims of discrimination and abuse is rejected by polite society, academia, and many jobs. In 2017, only crazy MRAs advocate for male victims of discrimination and abuse. I hope in 2031, this advocacy will be done not by MRAs but by most men and some women.

 

[jimithyashford]

What in the hell do you think that lead too? What? Rosie the riveter lived in an isolated society or something? Cause and effect. No Rosie, no equality.

First Wave Feminism predated Rosie the Riveter by half a century at least....

Maybe because you just agree blindly with someone who calls themselves a "feminist." Or maybe you just don't care to see the "other side?" Who knows. All you really need to do is go on to ANY college campus in America and listen to a bunch of young millennial aged girls bitch and moan about their "struggles." Ignoring some really important information.

Yeah, it seems like you have no idea what feminism is fella. I mean I know you think you do, I get that. But feminism certainly did not start with Rosie the Riveter, feminism is certainly not "A man cannot disagree with me" and feminism is certainly not "a bunch of millennial girls bitching about their problems" Like.....none of that is even remotely close.

You might need to entertain the notion that you don't know what you're talking about and are just speaking a lot of nonsense. I can certainly help you to understand what feminism is, explain some of it to you, and point you to resources that would actually explain it and give you some idea based in reality of what you're talking about.

But you don't strike me as a person who really cares or is interested. But we will see, you might surprise me.

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Okay. That's patently absurd. I based what I said about them previously based on a quicky google that listed rather benign goals. I retract what I said about them. That sounds like 4th wave feminism for men, and from what I understand, women are only on the 3rd wave.

Well, like I said, I havn't read a TON of MGTOW material, just a bit, but the stuff I did read was certainly NOT advocating that men just avoid women, it was very much pro-having sex with women, but spent a lot of time telling you how to seduce women and have sex with them and even sometimes have longterm relationships with them, but make sure things are in such a way you can break suddenly and cleanly when you want to and to not feel bad about it and whatever impression they were under regarding your relationship is their problem not yours, stuff like that.

Certainly go read more and let me know if what you find conflicts with that, I'd like to know, but what I kept coming across was basically not how to avoid women, but how to get them to shag you and avoid commitment or attachment.

 

[Henrin]

Really? You can't think of ANY thing at all that might have given them that idea? Nothing at all. It's a complete mystery to you where they got the idea that sexual ownership of and entitlement to women is a major theme in our culture, or that the concept of sexual autonomy of women is not well respected? You are just totally flummoxed as to where such an idea might have come from?

No, I know where they got the idea of sexual ownership and entitlement from. It's unfounded bull****.

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Strange as it is you are partially right.

In USSR 1977, the vast majority of people who criticized Communism were also professional thieves. Most law abiding people would not commit a felony of disagreeing with Communism. Most professional criminals would also violate Article 70 -- "Anti-Soviet Agitation". In 1991, normal people criticized Communism.

In USA 2017, anyone who advocates for male victims of discrimination and abuse is rejected by polite society, academia, and many jobs. In 2017, only crazy MRAs advocate for male victims of discrimination and abuse. I hope in 2031, this advocacy will be done not by MRAs but by most men and some women.

.....what? The content of your message doesn't seem to be a reply to the words of mine that you quoted. I am confused. I mentioned that MRAs don't actually spend their time talking about those legit issues once you get to their forums and meetings, and you replied that more people than MRAs need to talk about these legit issues.

That's a nonsequitor.

If the point you are making is that Male sexual abuse and family courts being skewed to favor mothers and male substance abuse and suicide rates are real and important issues that deserve advocacy....I 100% agree.

 

[jimithyashford]

No, I know where they got the idea of sexual ownership and entitlement from. It's unfounded bull****.

So there is literally 0% chance that you are wrong on this? There is no chance whatsoever that this is a real issue that these women have noticed more than you because it effects them more than you. There is no chance at all that they might be right and you should listen to them? No chance at all, your knowledge and view on the issues is completely and 100% comprehensive and in fact all of these women should be listening to you cause you are actually the one what know's what up, not them?

Is that about right?

And of course the guy who says "why should women have any say on what men do, why should a man even begin to care what they think" probably has a completely fair and reasonable view on this issue...right?

 

[SDET]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Latin American is also plagued by Machismo. Like Toxic masculinity mixed with traditional catholic patriarchal standards and hopped up to a high degree. It's fairly grotesque to witness.

It's still a world better than feminism.

 

[Henrin]

So there is literally 0% chance that you are wrong on this? There is no chance whatsoever that this is a real issue that these women have noticed more than you because it effects them more than you. There is no chance at all that they might be right and you should listen to them? No chance at all, your knowledge and view on the issues is completely and 100% comprehensive and in fact all of these women should be listening to you cause you are actually the one what know's what up, not them?

Is that about right?

And of course the guy who says "why should women have any say on what men do, why should a man even begin to care what they think" probably has a completely fair and reasonable view on this issue...right?

My view is completely reasonable and right, yes. It's not my fault they're wrong.

 

[Henrin]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

It's still a world better than feminism.

Anything is better than feminism cancer.

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

It's still a world better than feminism.

I suppose if you aren't a women you might feel that way.

An oppressive system often seems baller to the oppressors, not so hot the oppressees.

 

[calamity]

For me it's not even an issue of me being too tough to be bullied by women, there are a lot of powerful women out there that wield a hell of a lot more influence than me. It's that women are just, ya know, people. I've known ****ty women, good women, lying women, cruel women, kind women, funny women......the same as I have known men of all of those same categories. Women come in all personality types as do men as do red head and people with detached earlobes. I just have never encountered in my life any particular correlation between women and treating me in some bad way or doing bad things to me or victimizing me or undermining me or doing any of these things that MRAs seem to think women are doing all the time in droves to damn near all men.

How is my experience so radically different than theirs?

I don't think it actually is. I think the range of women we've encountered is probably pretty similar, but either their perception is radically skewed against women, or their resentful woman-hating demeanor just might be influence the outcome of their relationships with women.

An angry woman with a gun might be a concern. An angry wife can be a problem. A female boss with an ax to grind would see me looking for another job. So, yeah, on an individual basis, they are just people and should be dealt with accordingly.

As a group, I see no reason to fear women or scapegoat them. After all, we are men, goddammit. HTFU would be my take....except when facing the woman with the gun. Best then to just kiss up, if possible.

 

[Bodi]

Really? You can't think of ANY thing at all that might have given them that idea? Nothing at all. It's a complete mystery to you where they got the idea that sexual ownership of and entitlement to women is a major theme in our culture, or that the concept of sexual autonomy of women is not well respected? You are just totally flummoxed as to where such an idea might have come from?

Yes. I say that because there is no idea that sexual ownership of women as part of American culture. The premise itself is sexist and offensive.

 

[jimithyashford]

Yes. I say that because there is no idea that sexual ownership of women as part of American culture. The premise itself is sexist and offensive.

So let me ask you this. Just flex your imagination for a moment and imagine a culture where there was a feeling of entitlement to sex with women and a disregard for their sexual autonomy, not a culture that was just totally over the top with it where women were outright sex slaves or anything, but a country that did have a cultural problem with that kind of attitude that did need to be addressed. Just imagine it.

Ok, got it, you've imagined such a culture? What would that be like? What kinda of practices and beliefs and events and behaviors and standards would you expect to see in a hypothetical culture where that WAS a problem?

 

[Bodi]

So let me ask you this. Just flex your imagination for a moment and imagine a culture where there was a feeling of entitlement to sex with women and a disregard for their sexual autonomy, not a culture that was just totally over the top with it where women were outright sex slaves or anything, but a country that did have a cultural problem with that kind of attitude that did need to be addressed. Just imagine it.

Ok, got it, you've imagined such a culture? What would that be like? What kinda of practices and beliefs and events and behaviors and standards would you expect to see in a hypothetical culture where that WAS a problem?

What are you? A grade school teacher?

There is no American culture of sexual ownership of women. You made the claim. The claim is stupid. Back up your claim with some facts... not some imagination game.

And of course the guy who says "why should women have any say on what men do, why should a man even begin to care what they think" probably has a completely fair and reasonable view on this issue...right?

Why should women have any say what men do?

Why should a man care about what a woman thinks about what men do?

Reasonable questions... answer them.

 

[Bodi]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I suppose if you aren't a women you might feel that way.

An oppressive system often seems baller to the oppressors, not so hot the oppressees.

I know many original feminists who are disgusted with today's version of feminism... you don't speak for all women... in fact, you don't even speak for women. Don't you see your inherent hypocrisy of a man telling women what feminism is? :lol:

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I know many original feminists who are disgusted with today's version of feminism... you don't speak for all women... in fact, you don't even speak for women. Don't you see your inherent hypocrisy of a man telling women what feminism is? :lol:

I seriously doubt you know any original feminist at all seeing as how the movement started in the mid to late 1800s and general was focused around women's suffrage which was passed nationally in 1919. I mean maybe you do know "many" women who are over a hundred and might be considered "original feminists" but I doubt it.

What you are probably referring to is second wave feminism which was more of a 60s and 70s thing as part of the cultural revolution, and yeah, you very well might know many of those.

And being a woman doesn't make you an authority on feminism. There were plenty of women back in 1918 who felt that women should NOT be allowed to vote. There were plenty of women in 1960 who felt that women should NOT be elevated in the work place, or have access to contraceptive. There have been lots of women every step of the way that were disgusted and appalled by what the feminists of the time were doing.

 

[jimithyashford]

What are you? A grade school teacher?

Feels like it sometimes on this forum.

There is no American culture of sexual ownership of women.

I know you don't think there is, which is why I am asking you to imagine what it would look like if there were, so that we can examine your own standards for what you would consider to indicate such a state. Once I know what YOU consider to be indicative of such a status quo, I can then start to provide you examples of it in our actual culture.

Back up your claim with some facts... not some imagination game.

The purpose of the imagination game is to discern what a sexually entitled autonomy minimizing culture would look like to you so that I can demonstrate those features in our current culture. Without knowing what you personally consider that behavior to be like, it is hard for me to know what evidence to present that you would find compelling. I can certainly say that women as romantic booty in a male hero's quest being one of the most commonly told stories in western culture is a fairly strong indicator, I would say that the different ways male and female celebrities are interviewed following a child birth, or the different way that having children or grandchildren is treated between male and female politicians is a strong indicator of such things. I would the who notion that a girl by her dress or behavoir is "asking for it" (something I have heard many many many times in my life) is a pretty strong indicator of rape culture. I can go on and on with things that indicate rape culture to me, but I need to know what would count as indications of such things to you before I can present you with proof that you would find compelling.

Why should women have any say what men do?

Do men have a say in what other men do? Do people in general have a say in what other people in general do? Of course. Women have a say in what men do for the same reasons.

Why should a man care about what a woman thinks about what men do?

For the same reason men should care about what other men thing, or that any person should care about what any other person thinks. It's not complicated.

 

[Bodi]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I seriously doubt you know any original feminist at all seeing as how the movement started in the mid to late 1800s and general was focused around women's suffrage which was passed nationally in 1919. I mean maybe you do know "many" women who are over a hundred and might be considered "original feminists" but I doubt it.

What you are probably referring to is second wave feminism which was more of a 60s and 70s thing as part of the cultural revolution, and yeah, you very well might know many of those

Oh Lordie... "Original feminists" could refer to women at any time trying to get rights. Modern Feminism pretty much began during the 60's and 70's just as the Civil Rights Movement did even though there were Civil Rights actions for blacks earlier than that, Plessy, Brown and the abolitionists... When feminism started spreading to the college campuses and young women got involved is where it really begins in any modern realistic sense... not a few older well off white women during the Gilded Age.

And being a woman doesn't make you an authority on feminism. There were plenty of women back in 1918 who felt that women should NOT be allowed to vote. There were plenty of women in 1960 who felt that women should NOT be elevated in the work place, or have access to contraceptive. There have been lots of women every step of the way that were disgusted and appalled by what the feminists of the time were doing.

Men can support feminists but cannot themselves be feminists due to the inherent differences between the two sexes.

Don't you see your inherent hypocrisy of a man telling women what feminism is?

 

[Bodi]

Feels like it sometimes on this forum.

It is the way that you phrase things... you are talking to adults. Frame your comments accordingly.

I know you don't think there is, which is why I am asking you to imagine what it would look like if there were, so that we can examine your own standards for what you would consider to indicate such a state. Once I know what YOU consider to be indicative of such a status quo, I can then start to provide you examples of it in our actual culture.

Why would I want to imagine a disgusting sexist sexual ownership that does not exist?

The purpose of the imagination game is to discern what a sexually entitled autonomy minimizing culture would look like to you so that I can demonstrate those features in our current culture. Without knowing what you personally consider that behavior to be like, it is hard for me to know what evidence to present that you would find compelling.

Just provide THE EVIDENCE that it exists... what I think or know should be irrelevant to your evidence.

I can certainly say that women as romantic booty in a male hero's quest being one of the most commonly told stories in western culture is a fairly strong indicator,

Many women want to be rescued and have a strong man want them and romance them...

I would say that the different ways male and female celebrities are interviewed following a child birth, or the different way that having children or grandchildren is treated between male and female politicians is a strong indicator of such things.

What doe child birth interviews have to do with rape culture? :roll:

I would the who notion that a girl by her dress or behavoir is "asking for it" (something I have heard many many many times in my life) is a pretty strong indicator of rape culture. I can go on and on with things that indicate rape culture to me, but I need to know what would count as indications of such things to you before I can present you with proof that you would find compelling.

I worked in clubs and bars as a bartender for over 15 years and along with parties and clubs I have literally never ever heard people say that a raped girl was asking for it. I see people on internet forums say stupid things like that but never once in real life. I actually argue that it is a myth.

Do men have a say in what other men do? Do people in general have a say in what other people in general do? Of course. Women have a say in what men do for the same reasons.

Why should they have a say... not can they have a say. And that directly leads to the second question...

For the same reason men should care about what other men thing, or that any person should care about what any other person thinks. It's not complicated.

Why should a man care about what other men think either? Are you arguing that other people should have a say in what people do or think and that the person being judged should give a ****?

 

[jimithyashford]

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Oh Lordie... "Original feminists" could refer to women at any time trying to get rights. Modern Feminism pretty much began during the 60's and 70's just as the Civil Rights Movement did even though there were Civil Rights actions for blacks earlier than that, Plessy, Brown and the abolitionists... When feminism started spreading to the college campuses and young women got involved is where it really begins in any modern realistic sense... not a few older well off white women during the Gilded Age.




Men can support feminists but cannot themselves be feminists due to the inherent differences between the two sexes.

Don't you see your inherent hypocrisy of a man telling women what feminism is?

I don't think you know what hypocrisy is or what feminism is. No part of feminism dictates that a man can't be one. No part of feminism dictates that a man cannot discuss it's tenants, no part of feminism dictates that whatever a particular woman says about the subject is correct by merit of her being a woman, and hypocrisy does not mean disagreeing with a woman about feminism. None of this is the case, and I dare say if you go share this conversation with your feminist sisters they will confirm that fact.


And as far as "original feminists" goes, this statement here: ""Original feminists" could refer to women at any time trying to get rights." So the only legit feminist issues are trying to secure enumerated legal rights, other issues that are not necessarily based around rights, things like equal pay and maternity leave and workplace sexual harassment and contraceptive and whatnot, those things aren't "real" feminist issues then?