Hitler: What if...?

[B'smith]

The war was not a set up in any way, and the Allies would have been happy to see Hitler dead.

Apparently not because they refused to execute Operation Foxley:

"Britain’s Plan to Kill Hitler..."
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/fea...ll-hitler.html
EXCERPT "In 1944, the British hatched a plan to assassinate Hitler – a project known as Operation Foxley. It could have shortened the war, saved millions of lives, and spared everyone so much pain and suffering. The scheme had the approval of many in the British government, including Winston Churchill, but it was rejected because Hitler was helping the Allied cause." CONTINUED


There were assassination attempts on Hitler as early as the 1920s. Several members of the German High Command asked the British for help in assassinating Hitler as early as 1940.

What do you mean by:

The war was not a set up in any way...

A second World War was guaranteed by by the unreasonable conditions of the Treaty of Versailles that no country could have met, the French invasion of the Ruhr & later the Saar, the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, The Russian- Japanese war of 1939, the Mukden Incident, the massacres of Germans in the Sudetenland & Danzig corridor etc.

Meanwhile, The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, wrote:
*
''The international bankers swept statesmen, politicians, journalists and jurists all to one side and issued their orders with the imperiousness of absolute monarchs.''

 

[B'smith]

I think that it would have been just the opposite. Hitler would been replaced with a smarter leader and the death toll would have been higher over the long haul. If a new leader could have negotiated peace with the Russians, Germany would have been able to sustain it's supply lines to the ME and focused on maintaining it's gains in Europe. Had Germany not been split into a 2-3 front war and been able to reinforce the French coast as strongly as it should have, D-Day would have been another Marketgarden.

The Allied decision not to execute Operation Foxley supports your contention:


"Britain’s Plan to Kill Hitler..."
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/fea...ll-hitler.html
EXCERPT "In 1944, the British hatched a plan to assassinate Hitler – a project known as Operation Foxley. It could have shortened the war, saved millions of lives, and spared everyone so much pain and suffering. The scheme had the approval of many in the British government, including Winston Churchill, but it was rejected because Hitler was helping the Allied cause." CONTINUED

 

[Fledermaus]

Apparently not because they refused to execute Operation Foxley:

"Britain’s Plan to Kill Hitler..."
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/fea...ll-hitler.html
EXCERPT "In 1944, the British hatched a plan to assassinate Hitler – a project known as Operation Foxley. It could have shortened the war, saved millions of lives, and spared everyone so much pain and suffering. The scheme had the approval of many in the British government, including Winston Churchill, but it was rejected because Hitler was helping the Allied cause." CONTINUED


There were assassination attempts on Hitler as early as the 1920s. Several members of the German High Command asked the British for help in assassinating Hitler as early as 1940.

What do you mean by:

A second World War was guaranteed by by the unreasonable conditions of the Treaty of Versailles that no country could have met, the French invasion of the Ruhr & later the Saar, the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, The Russian- Japanese war of 1939, the Mukden Incident, the massacres of Germans in the Sudetenland & Danzig corridor etc.

Meanwhile, The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, wrote:
*
''The international bankers swept statesmen, politicians, journalists and jurists all to one side and issued their orders with the imperiousness of absolute monarchs.''

Another "everyone is at fault but Hitler" post...

Pathetic.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Oh, and I should just take your authoritarian word for it? Perhaps a booklet called "War is a racket" would be worth your time.

Smedley Butler, oh please.

As a Marine, I like all Marines am in awe of his achievements. He was admittedly a fine warrior in his day.

But towards the end of his life, he was quite the crackpot. The entire "Business Plot" is generally accepted as the manipulation of a man who was becoming mentally unstable. And he was quite bitter, having first used political influence to try and gain high ranking political positions, then being refused appointment as Commandant which caused him to retire.

Most people today do not realize that at that time, the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars were pretty much at odds with each other. It was like 2 rival cults trying to grab the same recruits. In fact, you could belong to one or the other, but never both.

And old Smedley was an active leader and recruiter for the VFW.

And as part of the Business Plot, we was supposed to be given the leadership of the American Legion. It simply makes no sense. Most believe now that he was originally the victim of some kind of long-con scam, that fell apart due to his diminishing mental abilities.

A couple of months after the investigation of the "Business Plot" was concluded and dismissed, he largely retreated from public life and was rarely seen in public again. Shortly after he was diagnosed with advanced terminal cancer, and he died a month later.

And his "War is a Racket" is largely discredited. Yes, I have read it. And it's full of nonsense.

Let's go through a bit, shall we?

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War.

Well, quite a claim there. Especially since at the end of WWI there was only a single Billionaire in the entire world, John D. Rockefeller. And even according to IRS records of the time, what the 20,000 number actually is is the number of people who paid income taxes on income of $50,000 or more.

And very few who make $50k a year have an actual value of over $1 million, even today.

He states that our trade with China is $90 million (actually it was $97 million), but so what? Since when does trade become the same as profiteering? We have trade with China much more than that today, does that mean we are gearing up for war over that?

We spent $600 million in the Philippines over 35 years. Well yea, duh! At that time it was a protectorate of the US, and when we took control it was divided by internal strife between Catholics and Muslims, and had largely been neglected by the Spanish. His problem with both of those claims is rather puzzling, although he was known to not have much use for Asians.

The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and
sometimes twelve percent. But war-time profits -- ah! that is another matter -- twenty, sixty,
one hundred, three hundred, and even eighteen hundred per cent -- the sky is the limit.

Wow, really? 1,800% profits? Well, maybe for a contraband smuggler, but not for a business.

Well, the average earnings of the du Fonts for the period 1910 to 1914 were $6,000,000 a
year. It wasn't much, but the du Fonts managed to get along on it. Now let's look at their
average yearly profit during the war years, 1914 to 1918. Fifty-eight million dollars a year

Now obviously he means the du Ponts. Well yea, no duh!

Not only did the du Ponts primarily make explosives and gunpowder, the also held extensive patents on them. So as every country needed more of each, their sales (and profits) increased. That is like saying that GM made more money when the military bought the HMMWV. No duh.

Also, they held extensive patents on those items. And even when Germany was making it's own gunpowder, when they were using du Ponts patents, they had to pay a royalty. Even if du Pont did not do a thing.

In fact, curious thing about patents. For every single M1903 Springfield made by and for the US army during WWI, the US Government paid a royalty to Mauser, a German company. That is because much of the M1903 was based on the M1893 Mauser. And the US Government sent them the German Government the checks, even as they were fighting them in the trenches.

No, feel free to read General Butler's little book. It is almost an insane rant. And I admit I have to question anybody that actually takes it seriously.

https://archive.org/stream/WarIsARacket/WarIsARacket_djvu.txt

 

[Oozlefinch]

In Europe, Germany declared war on us so there was no decision to be made. The Japanese caught us completely by surprise at Pearl Harbor, and War is a Racket is just a propaganda pamphlet.

Which is almost schizophrenic in it's message.

On one page he is ranting that Germany and Italy are gearing up for war and we must do what we can to stop it. No matter what the cost.

Then he turns right around and screams that all war must be avoided at all costs because it makes businesses rich.

 

[Jack Hays]

Yet Germany hadn't attacked us, still we were involved by sending aid to England, maybe Germany had a point? A general wrote the book, and there is no truth to it, am I understanding you? As for us NOT knowing in advance about Pearl Harbor, a quick search will prove you wrong.

We did not know in advance about Pearl Harbor. Your author general was a crackpot. Germany declared war on the US.

 

[Jack Hays]

Apparently not because they refused to execute Operation Foxley:

"Britain’s Plan to Kill Hitler..."
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/fea...ll-hitler.html
EXCERPT "In 1944, the British hatched a plan to assassinate Hitler – a project known as Operation Foxley. It could have shortened the war, saved millions of lives, and spared everyone so much pain and suffering. The scheme had the approval of many in the British government, including Winston Churchill, but it was rejected because Hitler was helping the Allied cause." CONTINUED


There were assassination attempts on Hitler as early as the 1920s. Several members of the German High Command asked the British for help in assassinating Hitler as early as 1940.

What do you mean by:

A second World War was guaranteed by by the unreasonable conditions of the Treaty of Versailles that no country could have met, the French invasion of the Ruhr & later the Saar, the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, The Russian- Japanese war of 1939, the Mukden Incident, the massacres of Germans in the Sudetenland & Danzig corridor etc.

Meanwhile, The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, wrote:
*
''The international bankers swept statesmen, politicians, journalists and jurists all to one side and issued their orders with the imperiousness of absolute monarchs.''

". . . The plan was submitted in November 1944, but was never carried out because controversy remained over whether it was actually a prudent idea to kill Hitler: he was by then considered to be such a poor strategist that it was believed whoever replaced him would probably do a better job of fighting the Allies. Thornley also argued that Germany was almost defeated and, if Hitler were assassinated, he would become a martyr to some Germans, and possibly give rise to a myth that Germany might have won if Hitler had survived. Since the idea was not only to defeat Germany but to destroy Nazism in general, that would have been a highly undesirable development. There were strong advocates on both sides, and the plan never became operational simply because no actual decision was reached, partly because of a lack of intelligence as to Hitler's daily routine.[SUP][5][/SUP] In any event, Hitler left the Berghof for the last time on 14 July 1944, never to return, and committed suicide in Berlin on 30 April 1945, a few days before the war in Europe ended. . . ."

[h=2]
[/h]Operation Foxley - Wikipedia
Wikipedia › wiki › Operation_Foxley

---

Operation Foxley was a 1944 plan to assassinate Adolf Hitler, conceived by the British Special Operations Executive (SOE). Although detailed preparations were made, no attempt was made to carry out the plan.
Prior plans

Sniper attack plan

 

[Fledermaus]

Oh, and I should just take your authoritarian word for it? Perhaps a booklet called "War is a racket" would be worth your time.

The US needed a way to get into the war with backing from the American people, they were well aware of Japan's actions in the Pacific and had intercepted communications, Pearl Harbor was the 9/11 false flag of the day. Why did we go to war in Europe if we were only pissed at Japan?

Maybe when you make a statement you could back it up with some theory.

"9/11 false flag"

WTF?

 

[Quag]

"9/11 false flag"

WTF?

CT nonsense should stay in the CT section

 

[Jack Hays]

Just saw The Darkest Hour​ last night. A good reminder what a close call civilization had in 1940.

 

[B'smith]

Just saw The Darkest Hour​ last night. A good reminder what a close call civilization had in 1940.

Wasting time having MSM pour redundant & simplistic Allied propaganda into your head is not how you learn the complex realities of 20th century European history and precisely why you didn't know about Operation Foxley & etc

 

[Quag]

Wasting time having MSM pour redundant & simplistic Allied propaganda into your head is not how you learn the complex realities of 20th century European history and precisely why you didn't know about Operation Foxley & etc

Yes much better to waste your time having neo-Nazis pour redundant and simplistic anti-Semitic falsehoods into your head. Sorry Bsmith your sources have been debunked your claims proven wrong
Hitler remains solely responsible for WW2 and starting the holocaust
Hitler never wanted peace or he would not have attacked his neighbors. He would not have sent the Condor legion to Spain to test their weapons and perfect their tactics.

 

[zyzygy]

Wasting time having MSM pour redundant & simplistic Allied propaganda into your head is not how you learn the complex realities of 20th century European history and precisely why you didn't know about Operation Foxley & etc

Be honest. Why do you admire Hitler?

 

[B'smith]

Yes much better to waste your time having neo-Nazis pour redundant and simplistic anti-Semitic falsehoods into your head. Sorry Bsmith your sources have been debunked your claims proven wrong
Hitler remains solely responsible for WW2 and starting the holocaust
Hitler never wanted peace or he would not have attacked his neighbors. He would not have sent the Condor legion to Spain to test their weapons and perfect their tactics.

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" Socrates

Oh, here it comes, again, more dishonest slander. Apparently, the "White Flag" of a debunked poster remains accusations of "neo Nazism & howling "anti Semite"

I dare you to show ANYWHERE in this entire Forum where I have made "anti Semitic" or pro Nazi remarks.

There is no war in history for which only one man is responsible just as there were many factors, organizations & individuals who contributed to the particular holocaust to which you are referring. As you must know, there have been several holocausts throughout the 20th century consuming many more lives equally valuable.

Virtually all mature & educated historians attribute the primary cause of WW2 as the draconian Treaty of Versailles & its unrealistic & vengeful demand for 3 times as much as Germany's entire assets.
Name one other country that could have survived under the conditions imposed on post WW1 Germany.

If you were better familiar with the communist threat faced by Germany such as the Bavarian Soviet Republic etc, you would know that a clash between fascist Germany and the communist USSR was inevitable.

There is ample evidence to support the fact that Hitler did want peace with the British whose Cliveden set etc supported him & his agenda before & during the first of the war.
He would have had to honor his commitment to return recently conquered territories in order to keep the Western Allies out of the war and fight only the Communists which the West found itself doing during the Cold War.

We obviously differ in opinions, I'd hoped we could do so without resorting to base personal slander.

 

[B'smith]

Be honest. Why do you admire Hitler?

I don't admire Hitler any more than I admire Atilla the Hun or, presumably, you love kiddie porn.

The reason I'm discussing Hitler, his accomplishments, failures & crimes is because it's the topic of this thread.

 

[zyzygy]

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" Socrates

Oh, here it comes, again, more dishonest slander. Apparently, the "White Flag" of a debunked poster remains accusations of "neo Nazism & howling "anti Semite"

I dare you to show ANYWHERE in this entire Forum where I have made "anti Semitic" or pro Nazi remarks.

There is no war in history for which only one man is responsible just as there were many factors, organizations & individuals who contributed to the particular holocaust to which you are referring. As you must know, there have been several holocausts throughout the 20th century consuming many more lives equally valuable.

Virtually all mature & educated historians attribute the primary cause of WW2 as the draconian Treaty of Versailles & its unrealistic & vengeful demand for 3 times as much as Germany's entire assets.
Name one other country that could have survived under the conditions imposed on post WW1 Germany.

If you were better familiar with the communist threat faced by Germany such as the Bavarian Soviet Republic etc, you would know that a clash between fascist Germany and the communist USSR was inevitable.

There is ample evidence to support the fact that Hitler did want peace with the British whose Cliveden set etc supported him & his agenda before & during the first of the war.
He would have had to honor his commitment to return recently conquered territories in order to keep the Western Allies out of the war and fight only the Communists which the West found itself doing during the Cold War.

We obviously differ in opinions, I'd hoped we could do so without resorting to base personal slander.

All your posts are pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi.

 

[Jack Hays]

Wasting time having MSM pour redundant & simplistic Allied propaganda into your head is not how you learn the complex realities of 20th century European history and precisely why you didn't know about Operation Foxley & etc

I used to teach this subject at university level. Please spare yourself the embarrassment of further parading your ignorance. Operation Foxley is well known; it's just not important.

 

[B'smith]

I used to teach this subject at university level. Please spare yourself the embarrassment of further parading your ignorance. Operation Foxley is well known; it's just not important.

If Operation Foxley is "well known", why, then did you say:

The war was not a set up in any way, and the Allies would have been happy to see Hitler dead.

 

[Jack Hays]

If Operation Foxley is "well known", why, then did you say:

Because the Allies would have been happy to see Hitler dead. That is not the same thing as investing in an operation to do it themselves. There was never a decision not to proceed; there was simply never a decision or (as it turned out) an opportunity to proceed.

 

[lefty louie]

Smedley Butler, oh please.

As a Marine, I like all Marines am in awe of his achievements. He was admittedly a fine warrior in his day.

But towards the end of his life, he was quite the crackpot. The entire "Business Plot" is generally accepted as the manipulation of a man who was becoming mentally unstable. And he was quite bitter, having first used political influence to try and gain high ranking political positions, then being refused appointment as Commandant which caused him to retire.

Most people today do not realize that at that time, the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars were pretty much at odds with each other. It was like 2 rival cults trying to grab the same recruits. In fact, you could belong to one or the other, but never both.

And old Smedley was an active leader and recruiter for the VFW.

And as part of the Business Plot, we was supposed to be given the leadership of the American Legion. It simply makes no sense. Most believe now that he was originally the victim of some kind of long-con scam, that fell apart due to his diminishing mental abilities.

A couple of months after the investigation of the "Business Plot" was concluded and dismissed, he largely retreated from public life and was rarely seen in public again. Shortly after he was diagnosed with advanced terminal cancer, and he died a month later.

And his "War is a Racket" is largely discredited. Yes, I have read it. And it's full of nonsense.

Let's go through a bit, shall we?



Well, quite a claim there. Especially since at the end of WWI there was only a single Billionaire in the entire world, John D. Rockefeller. And even according to IRS records of the time, what the 20,000 number actually is is the number of people who paid income taxes on income of $50,000 or more.

And very few who make $50k a year have an actual value of over $1 million, even today.

He states that our trade with China is $90 million (actually it was $97 million), but so what? Since when does trade become the same as profiteering? We have trade with China much more than that today, does that mean we are gearing up for war over that?

We spent $600 million in the Philippines over 35 years. Well yea, duh! At that time it was a protectorate of the US, and when we took control it was divided by internal strife between Catholics and Muslims, and had largely been neglected by the Spanish. His problem with both of those claims is rather puzzling, although he was known to not have much use for Asians.



Wow, really? 1,800% profits? Well, maybe for a contraband smuggler, but not for a business.



Now obviously he means the du Ponts. Well yea, no duh!

Not only did the du Ponts primarily make explosives and gunpowder, the also held extensive patents on them. So as every country needed more of each, their sales (and profits) increased. That is like saying that GM made more money when the military bought the HMMWV. No duh.

Also, they held extensive patents on those items. And even when Germany was making it's own gunpowder, when they were using du Ponts patents, they had to pay a royalty. Even if du Pont did not do a thing.

In fact, curious thing about patents. For every single M1903 Springfield made by and for the US army during WWI, the US Government paid a royalty to Mauser, a German company. That is because much of the M1903 was based on the M1893 Mauser. And the US Government sent them the German Government the checks, even as they were fighting them in the trenches.

No, feel free to read General Butler's little book. It is almost an insane rant. And I admit I have to question anybody that actually takes it seriously.

https://archive.org/stream/WarIsARacket/WarIsARacket_djvu.txt

Who was that bald guy under Bush that made all that money with Halliburton after starting bogus wars?

 

[lefty louie]

We did not know in advance about Pearl Harbor. Your author general was a crackpot. Germany declared war on the US.

But we did.

 

[Jack Hays]

But we did.

Just another conspiracy theory myth.

 

[lefty louie]

Just another conspiracy theory myth.

Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack - Telegraph

Read the stupid link

 

[B'smith]

All your posts are pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi.

Generally, mature & educated individuals can discuss historical events objectively, dispassionately & intelligently without slander & getting personal which is the purpose of debate forums. Since every story has 2 or more sides, what you may see as being "pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi" is simply my attempt to look at the various sides of the same event objectively, completely & dispassionately. I've not disputed that the crimes of Hitler & the Nazis were heinous but am equally interested in the "why" & "how" events evolved & unfolded

What's the point of having a debate forum if everybody simply parrots the same worn out, factually flawed, & simplistic Allied propaganda?

Why don't you start a nice, simple & boring thread about who can come up with the most scathing epithet for Hitler if that's your purpose for being here?

 

[Jack Hays]

Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack - Telegraph

Read the stupid link

Neither new nor important.

From your link:

'. . . Conspiracy theorists have long claimed that Roosevelt deliberately ignored intelligence of an imminent attack in Hawaii, suggesting that he allowed it to happen so that he would then have a legitimate reason for declaring war on Japan. Up to that point, public and political opinion had been against America's entry into what was seen largely as a European war, despite Roosevelt's private support for the Allies' fight against the so-called Axis - Germany, Italy and Japan.
But Mr Shirley said: "Based on all my research, I believe that neither Roosevelt nor anybody in his government, the Navy or the War Department knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbour. There was no conspiracy.
"This memo is further evidence that they believed the Japanese were contemplating a military action of some sort, but they were kind of in denial because they didn't think anybody would be as audacious to move an army thousands of miles across the Pacific, stop to refuel, then move on to Hawaii to make a strike like this.". . . ."