Hitler: What if...?

[Jack Hays]

RE:

That's a lie. I cited "Counter-Currents". I'm not responsible for the lies told by other posters

RE:

Of course not.

RE:

No, most historians regard the Treaty of Versailles as the cause of WW2.

RE:

You're ignoring the invasion by the French of the Ruhr & Saar, the massacres of Germans in the Sudenland, the Danzig Territory, the Franco-Soviet Pact, tensions in the Atlantic, and primarily Stalin's Westward expansion & invasion of Poland.
War was inevitable.

RE:

I don't post personal slander and am not relying on anonymous forum posters to decide what sources are credible or not.
You're naive to think that Stalin wouldn't continue his Westward advancement. He succeeded in taking as much of Europe as he could get & joined Britain in invading Iran in 1941.

I'll just pick two of the many lies. No, most historians do not regard the Treaty of Versailles as the cause of WW2. Stalin did not invade Poland until Hitler did; they agreed to do it together in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

 

[Fledermaus]

RE:

That's a lie. I cited "Counter-Currents". I'm not responsible for the lies told by other posters

<Snipped revisionist blame everyone by Hitler BS>

I don't post personal slander...

What lie?

Support or retraction.

 

[B'smith]

I'll just pick two of the many lies. No, most historians do not regard the Treaty of Versailles as the cause of WW2. Stalin did not invade Poland until Hitler did; they agreed to do it together in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Historians also do not all agree as to the time WW2 began with the first post WW1 military invasion being France's invasion of the Ruhr in 1923. Many historians assert that WW2 began with the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, others consider WW2 to have begun with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and/or the Soviet-Japanese War of 1939.(1) Some historians even consider WW1 & WW2 to be one war because of the multitude of unresolved conflicts.

I agree that Stalin invaded 3/5ths of Poland about 2 weeks after Hitler invaded/reclaimed the Danzig Corridor which was formerly Prussia until the Treaty of Versailles. Stalin's fan club however does not acknowledge his Westward movements such as his attack on Finland & seizing the Baltic States.
I believe the historians who assert that Stalin intended to wait until the Germans, English & French had exhausted themselves via war & intended to move in & pick up the pieces starting with Germany.
Stalin was disappointed & surprised that Germany that routed the English & French so quickly while he was preparing to invade Germany.






(1) "The Forgotten Soviet-Japanese War of 1939"
https://thediplomat.com/2012/08/the-forgotten-soviet-japanese-war-of-1939/

 

[Casca XV]

If the July 20, 1944, assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler had succeeded, how do you think events might have played out afterward?

Leaving it wide open to start.

Yes, this is obviously pure speculation, but could be an interesting conversation for those willing to partake.

I have read a couple of alternate history stories on this. Both basically said the US ends up in a cold war similar to what we had with the Soviet Union and like with the USSR, Nazi Germany fell form within.

That of course is on the premise that without Hitler micromanaging the Generals they could have ended the war in at least a stalemate.

 

[Fledermaus]

Historians also do not all agree as to the time WW2 began with the first post WW1 military invasion being France's invasion of the Ruhr in 1923. Many historians assert that WW2 began with the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, others consider WW2 to have begun with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and/or the Soviet-Japanese War of 1939.(1) Some historians even consider WW1 & WW2 to be one war because of the multitude of unresolved conflicts.

I agree that Stalin invaded 3/5ths of Poland about 2 weeks after Hitler invaded/reclaimed the Danzig Corridor which was formerly Prussia until the Treaty of Versailles. Stalin's fan club however does not acknowledge his Westward movements such as his attack on Finland & seizing the Baltic States.
I believe the historians who assert that Stalin intended to wait until the Germans, English & French had exhausted themselves via war & intended to move in & pick up the pieces starting with Germany.
Stalin was disappointed & surprised that Germany that routed the English & French so quickly while he was preparing to invade Germany.

Funny... Most historians cite HITLER'S invasion of Poland as the beginning of WWII in Europe. I have read no one that considered French intervention in the the Ruhr in 1923 as the start of WWII.

Hitler DID NOT merely invade the Danzig corridor. He drove all the way to Warsaw. Where is Warsaw on your map of Poland?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Funny... Most historians cite HITLER'S invasion of Poland as the beginning of WWII in Europe. I have read no one that considered French intervention in the the Ruhr in 1923 as the start of WWII.

Hitler DID NOT merely invade the Danzig corridor. He drove all the way to Warsaw. Where is Warsaw on your map of Poland?

I am one of those that considers 2 different invasions as being the actual start of WWII.

The first is the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, when Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935. The second being the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937 when Japan invaded China. These were the real starts of the war, especially the second since Japan had already been at war for 2 years before Germany invaded Poland.

But most people are Eurocentric, so nothing much matters to them outside of Europe.

 

[Fledermaus]

I am one of those that considers 2 different invasions as being the actual start of WWII.

The first is the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, when Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935. The second being the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937 when Japan invaded China. These were the real starts of the war, especially the second since Japan had already been at war for 2 years before Germany invaded Poland.

But most people are Eurocentric, so nothing much matters to them outside of Europe.

I'll have to disagree with the Second Italo-Abyssinian War.... It was a war but it was little more than the usual Euro-Colonialism that was in vogue at the time. With little in the way of lasting effect it was but a blip in history... Britain and France actually recognized Italian sovereignty over Ethiopia in 1938...

Hitler's 1939 play involved Poland, France and England.... Had he made a play for Danzig and the corridor perhaps he may have bought more time and gotten away with yet another land grab.

But his invasion of Poland proper is what ignited war in Europe.

And yes... There was war in China in 1937. And again we see little in the way of a world wide conflict (beyond foreign support). I will agree that this is far closer to a world event than Ethiopia but I still see December 1941 as the word-wide event.

1937 - Japan vs China.

1941 - Japan vs. China, USA, Netherlands, England...

 

[Quag]

I'll have to disagree with the Second Italo-Abyssinian War.... It was a war but it was little more than the usual Euro-Colonialism that was in vogue at the time. With little in the way of lasting effect it was but a blip in history... Britain and France actually recognized Italian sovereignty over Ethiopia in 1938...

Hitler's 1939 play involved Poland, France and England.... Had he made a play for Danzig and the corridor perhaps he may have bought more time and gotten away with yet another land grab.

But his invasion of Poland proper is what ignited war in Europe.

And yes... There was war in China in 1937. And again we see little in the way of a world wide conflict (beyond foreign support). I will agree that this is far closer to a world event than Ethiopia but I still see December 1941 as the word-wide event.

1937 - Japan vs China.

1941 - Japan vs. China, USA, Netherlands, England...

I agree with most of this but still use Poland because that was the beginning of the war that not only involved multiple participant nations but involved more than one continent. Europe, Africa and if you consider the naval aspects you could also include the Americas and the Middle East. It really was more than just a European thing even though the main combattants were European If you include Australia/New Zealand into the picture, even though the fighting wasn't happening there it really is the start of a war spanning the world
As Hitler was solely responsible for deciding to invade Poland he is the immediate cause of the war.

 

[Jack Hays]

Historians also do not all agree as to the time WW2 began with the first post WW1 military invasion being France's invasion of the Ruhr in 1923. Many historians assert that WW2 began with the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, others consider WW2 to have begun with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and/or the Soviet-Japanese War of 1939.(1) Some historians even consider WW1 & WW2 to be one war because of the multitude of unresolved conflicts.

I agree that Stalin invaded 3/5ths of Poland about 2 weeks after Hitler invaded/reclaimed the Danzig Corridor which was formerly Prussia until the Treaty of Versailles. Stalin's fan club however does not acknowledge his Westward movements such as his attack on Finland & seizing the Baltic States.
I believe the historians who assert that Stalin intended to wait until the Germans, English & French had exhausted themselves via war & intended to move in & pick up the pieces starting with Germany.
Stalin was disappointed & surprised that Germany that routed the English & French so quickly while he was preparing to invade Germany.






(1) "The Forgotten Soviet-Japanese War of 1939"
https://thediplomat.com/2012/08/the-forgotten-soviet-japanese-war-of-1939/

To acknowledge that Stalin had evil intent or that the Japanese were aggressive does not exculpate Hitler from primary responsibility for starting WW2. The single figure whose removal from history would likely have meant no WW2 was Adolph Hitler.

 

[Fledermaus]

You will do well to stop harassing me, You've made this point at least twice now, time to give it a rest. Or I'll be forced to cry to the mods.

Thin skinned some of the CTers are.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I'll have to disagree with the Second Italo-Abyssinian War.... It was a war but it was little more than the usual Euro-Colonialism that was in vogue at the time. With little in the way of lasting effect it was but a blip in history... Britain and France actually recognized Italian sovereignty over Ethiopia in 1938...

True, but it showed that the new reborn Italy was more than willing to go to war to get what they thought they deserved. That was more a display of intent than anything else.

Hitler's 1939 play involved Poland, France and England.... Had he made a play for Danzig and the corridor perhaps he may have bought more time and gotten away with yet another land grab.

And yes... There was war in China in 1937. And again we see little in the way of a world wide conflict (beyond foreign support). I will agree that this is far closer to a world event than Ethiopia but I still see December 1941 as the word-wide event.

1937 - Japan vs China.

1941 - Japan vs. China, USA, Netherlands, England...

Oh, there was already fighting between the previous WWI Allies, even in 1937.

Do not forget the USS Panay incident, where Japanese warplanes attacked and sunk a US warship in addition to 3 US flagged and crewed oil tankers.

And there had been other incidents and firefights between US and Japanese forces in China prior to that. As well as incidents between Japanese and UK forces.

And even in April the US started to send the American Volunteer Group ("Flying Tigers"), and were actively supplying and training Republic of China forces to fight against the Japanese before Pearl Harbor.

 

[Fledermaus]

True, but it showed that the new reborn Italy was more than willing to go to war to get what they thought they deserved. That was more a display of intent than anything else.

Hitler's 1939 play involved Poland, France and England.... Had he made a play for Danzig and the corridor perhaps he may have bought more time and gotten away with yet another land grab.



Oh, there was already fighting between the previous WWI Allies, even in 1937.

Do not forget the USS Panay incident, where Japanese warplanes attacked and sunk a US warship in addition to 3 US flagged and crewed oil tankers.

And there had been other incidents and firefights between US and Japanese forces in China prior to that. As well as incidents between Japanese and UK forces.

And even in April the US started to send the American Volunteer Group ("Flying Tigers"), and were actively supplying and training Republic of China forces to fight against the Japanese before Pearl Harbor.

They were training and supplying prior to Pearl... The first combat sorties were after Pearl by a couple of weeks.

 

[Oozlefinch]

They were training and supplying prior to Pearl... The first combat sorties were after Pearl by a couple of weeks.

Which is exactly what I said. They were supplying and training the Chinese forces. In June 1941 the first of them arrived in China and started working with them to improve the Chinese Air Force (CAF). And these "advisors" were signed on to work with CAMCO (Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company) to improve the CAF.

CAMCO had been doing that since 1933, but prior to 1941 they had only been giving technical assistance. In 1941 this assistance went beyond mere technical support when the first pilots arrived and started to train the Chinese pilots in American air combat techniques.

But the CAF had already been in combat with Japan since 1937.