For the UFO/aliens visiting earth skeptics

[OscarLevant]

So, you don't believe any of the UFO sightings, not even one of the millions which have been recorded, not a single solitary one of them are occupied by ETs coming to visit earth?

Not one?

See, I'm not asking for evidence, I'm asking if you believe it. One can believe it, on a gut feeling, and not have evidence, there is no requirement for evidence just to believe something.

Now, you might be the type who needs evidence to believe in something, and that's fine, but note that if there were evidence, it wouldn't be a belief, eh?

And there is an overwhelming amount of thin evidence. Now, I wouldn't believe anything on thin evidence, necessarily. But, I would if there were an overwhelming amount of it, not saying in every case, but in some cases where it is logical.

Now, if you don't know that there is an overwhelming amount of thin evidence, if you don't know that, you are not a curious person, because, if you were a curious person, you would know that. Am I right? Even if that assumption is incorrect, ......

If you accept the possibility that interstellar space travel is possible that circumvents linear space travel with some other method, warping space, ( who knows? ) something other paradigm shift hitherto unknown and undiscovered by man, whereby Einstein's speed limit is not necessarily being violated, it is being rendered moot, something that highly advanced beings know that he didn't think of, not because Einstein is stupid, but because aliens are a million years ahead of Einstein, so if it is possible, and I believe it is possible, then out of the millions of planets that are likely to have intelligent life on them, ( or whatever the big number is, which is now the consensus, I believe) does it seem logical that not even ONE of them are advanced enough to have conquered practical interstellar space travel? And if at least one of them has, doesn't it seem logical they MIGHT have came here because they are likely to have cosmic scanners for the universe for budding planets that are on the verge of destroying themselves and who knows what else via their newly discovered atomic bombs?

You know it's possible that Earth, with earthlings and atomic bombs, is not a unique thing, that there might be a crew of aliens in the galactic federation tasked to seek out other earths who are similarly on the verge of self destruction with nukes because of the damage they could do to one corner of the universe, the kind of wise beings who understand that, cosmically speaking, we are all connected , and atomic bombs is NOT a good thing in this cosmology, so an effort worthy of preventing such evil from coming to its' evil fruition is very likely? No?

One thing you must stop doing, as all doubters tend to do, is second guess how they operate and think, and don't use your assumptions to dispel a reason to believe if there is a logical basis to believe. I think I have presented a logical basis to believe, no?

Here's what I don't get. Carl Sagan once proclaimed that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

That seems logical, but only if you deem that having neighbors are extraordinary.

Carl Sagan's proclamation is only logical from a human perspective which is limited compared to what advanced aliens might possess in terms of knowledge, perspective, and overall consciousness. It only seems extraordinary to US.

Why should ETs visiting earth be any more extraordinary than your next door neighbor asking you for a pat of butter?

Now, I might not have ever witnessed a neighbor asking a neighbor for butter, but, because the earth has billions of neighbors, can we not presume that at least one of these neighbors, in the annals of history, asked another neighbor for butter?

Is the proclamation that out of the millions of planets with intelligent life, in the annals of history of earth, is it any more extraordinary than the above that alien spacecraft have visited earth, for whatever reason, the likely one being that we are children playing with atomic matches?

In the physical universe, in any category, there is not a single one of anything.

There is not one cat, one dog, one bug, one germ, one tree, there is not one planet, and there simply cannot be one planet with life, and not one planet with intelligent life, and one living condition where there is only one spectrum of life, meaning a life with a range of intelligence, from single celled to humans and beyond, there isn't one of that, either. There must be, just by observing nature, more than one universe.

Therefore, what is the upper limit on that range of intelligence? Does it fall short before intelligence can discover interstellar travel that is practical?

In a sense, it seem to me, your position is the illogical position.

Think about it.

 

[calamity]

So, you don't believe any of the UFO sightings, not even one of the millions which have been recorded, not a single solitary one of them are occupied by ETs coming to visit earth?

Not one?...

(Snipped for word count Dracula purposes)

My guess--or is that a belief?--is that interstellar travel is likely occurring somewhere by something and has been for some time. But, here's the thing. I can't see that kind of travel involving rocket ships at all.

I envision interstellar travel as something done via wormhole, a machine maybe that bends space and time to suit the "travelers" needs. So, when I hear someone say they saw a UFO, I usually call bull****. But, if that same person said he saw a little green man appear out of the blue, I might go hmmm.

 

[Paradoxical]

So, you don't believe any of the UFO sightings, not even one of the millions which have been recorded, not a single solitary one of them are occupied by ETs coming to visit earth?

Not one?

See, I'm not asking for evidence, I'm asking if you believe it. One can believe it, on a gut feeling, and not have evidence, there is no requirement for evidence just to believe something.

Now, you might be the type who needs evidence to believe in something, and that's fine, but note that if there were evidence, it wouldn't be a belief, eh?

And there is an overwhelming amount of thin evidence. Now, I wouldn't believe anything on thin evidence, necessarily. But, I would if there were an overwhelming amount of it, not saying in every case, but in some cases where it is logical.

Now, if you don't know that there is an overwhelming amount of thin evidence, if you don't know that, you are not a curious person, because, if you were a curious person, you would know that. Am I right? Even if that assumption is incorrect, ......

If you accept the possibility that interstellar space travel is possible that circumvents linear space travel with some other method, warping space, ( who knows? ) something other paradigm shift hitherto unknown and undiscovered by man, whereby Einstein's speed limit is not necessarily being violated, it is being rendered moot, something that highly advanced beings know that he didn't think of, not because Einstein is stupid, but because aliens are a million years ahead of Einstein, so if it is possible, and I believe it is possible, then out of the millions of planets that are likely to have intelligent life on them, ( or whatever the big number is, which is now the consensus, I believe) does it seem logical that not even ONE of them are advanced enough to have conquered practical interstellar space travel? And if at least one of them has, doesn't it seem logical they MIGHT have came here because they are likely to have cosmic scanners for the universe for budding planets that are on the verge of destroying themselves and who knows what else via their newly discovered atomic bombs?

You know it's possible that Earth, with earthlings and atomic bombs, is not a unique thing, that there might be a crew of aliens in the galactic federation tasked to seek out other earths who are similarly on the verge of self destruction with nukes because of the damage they could do to one corner of the universe, the kind of wise beings who understand that, cosmically speaking, we are all connected , and atomic bombs is NOT a good thing in this cosmology, so an effort worthy of preventing such evil from coming to its' evil fruition is very likely? No?

One thing you must stop doing, as all doubters tend to do, is second guess how they operate and think, and don't use your assumptions to dispel a reason to believe if there is a logical basis to believe. I think I have presented a logical basis to believe, no?

Here's what I don't get. Carl Sagan once proclaimed that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

That seems logical, but only if you deem that having neighbors are extraordinary.

Carl Sagan's proclamation is only logical from a human perspective which is limited compared to what advanced aliens might possess in terms of knowledge, perspective, and overall consciousness. It only seems extraordinary to US.

Why should ETs visiting earth be any more extraordinary than your next door neighbor asking you for a pat of butter?

Now, I might not have ever witnessed a neighbor asking a neighbor for butter, but, because the earth has billions of neighbors, can we not presume that at least one of these neighbors, in the annals of history, asked another neighbor for butter?

Is the proclamation that out of the millions of planets with intelligent life, in the annals of history of earth, is it any more extraordinary than the above that alien spacecraft have visited earth, for whatever reason, the likely one being that we are children playing with atomic matches?

In the physical universe, in any category, there is not a single one of anything.

There is not one cat, one dog, one bug, one germ, one tree, there is not one planet, and there simply cannot be one planet with life, and not one planet with intelligent life, and one living condition where there is only one spectrum of life, meaning a life with a range of intelligence, from single celled to humans and beyond, there isn't one of that, either. There must be, just by observing nature, more than one universe.

Therefore, what is the upper limit on that range of intelligence? Does it fall short before intelligence can discover interstellar travel that is practical?

In a sense, it seem to me, your position is the illogical position.

Think about it.

Space aliens are probably a thousand times more probable than the Christian God.

 

[Glitch]

I don't think people who believe aliens from another world visited Earth are able to fathom the distances involved. The closest star to Sol is Proxima Centauri at a distance of 4.244 light years. Which equates to 24,948,890,000,000 miles (40,151,346,428,160 km). NASA's New Horizon spacecraft is traveling at 10.1 miles per second (36,372.6 mph / 58,536 kph). Which means that our fastest spacecraft would take 78,248.4 years just to reach the nearest star - one way.

Then there is the issue of radiation. Space is not a biologically friendly place. If solar radiation doesn't kill you, then cosmic radiation certainly will. There is a very good reason why we have not left low-Earth orbit with a manned-mission since 1972. We got damn lucky between 1969 and 1972. Had the initial lunar landing on July 20, 1969 been delayed by just 13 days, none of the astronauts would have made it back to Earth alive. There was an X-class solar flare in the direction of Earth on August 2, 1969 that would have killed the astronauts within seconds. They would have been dead before they even knew what killed them.

Assuming that there is another world with intelligent life capable of space travel, they are not going to be sending anything with biology. They are going to be like us and use mechanical probes and robots to do their exploration initially. Even using machines, they still wouldn't be able to fuel their spacecraft to reach even the nearest star. Which means they would have to devise some means of refueling their vessel in route to their destination.

Then you have to consider why would any aliens even know Earth exists? We have only been transmitting radio waves into space since Guglielmo Marconi invented the radio during the 1890s. Which means the furthest our communications could have possibly traveled is a maximum of 130 light years. Cosmologically-speaking that is a very short distance. We know of every star within that distance, and while many of them have planets, none of those stars are transmitting any artificial signals that we can detect.

Our solar system is located in the suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy, between two spiral arms. We are not in a cluster of stars where everything is relatively close together, we are in the boonies, where star density is at a minimum. So it is extremely unlikely anyone, assuming there is anyone, could detect our presence.

Life, in its simplest form, is probably abundant throughout the universe. In order to get beyond simple bacteria and reach complex life requires a relatively stable environment. Using the only example that we have, Earth, it took 4 billion years of relatively safe environment before we reached the Cambrian explosion, and another ~500 million years before you get to us. Unless you are in the suburbs of the Milky Way, like we are, the odds of having a long-term stable environment is not very good.

Next one has to consider that in the 13.78 billion years the universe has been around our solar system has only existed for 4.56 billion years, and humans only appear during the last ~4 million years. That leaves 9.22 billion years for other solar systems to form life before our solar system even formed. Lets assume they had a stable environment in the habitable zone of their star for multiple billions of years, like we have. Why would they exist now, at this precise time? They could have evolved millions or even billions of years ago, and have long ago become extinct.

Also, forget any notion of warp travel or wormholes. Yes, warp travel is mathematically possible. However, you would require the mass of Jupiter (using E=mc[SUP]2[/SUP]) just to have the energy to move 1 kg to the nearest star. Wormholes are also a mathematical construct, and unstable. Assuming one had the technology to make a stable wormhole, you are still talking about a minimum mass of three suns at either end of the wormhole. Wormholes are two connected black holes. You cannot ignore the gravitational effects a blackhole generates, even a small one is triple the mass of our sun. Just creating one anywhere near our solar system would completely destroy it. So while it might make for good SciFi TV, it doesn't cut the mustard in reality.

 

[WCH]

Space aliens are probably a thousand times more probable than the Christian God.

Why specifically the Christian God?

And suppose that aliens are just fallen angels instilling fear in the population at Satan's bidding.

 

[WCH]

I don't think people who believe aliens from another world visited Earth are able to fathom the distances involved. The closest star to Sol is Proxima Centauri at a distance of 4.244 light years. Which equates to 24,948,890,000,000 miles (40,151,346,428,160 km). NASA's New Horizon spacecraft is traveling at 10.1 miles per second (36,372.6 mph / 58,536 kph). Which means that our fastest spacecraft would take 78,248.4 years just to reach the nearest star - one way.

Then there is the issue of radiation. Space is not a biologically friendly place. If solar radiation doesn't kill you, then cosmic radiation certainly will. There is a very good reason why we have not left low-Earth orbit with a manned-mission since 1972. We got damn lucky between 1969 and 1972. Had the initial lunar landing on July 20, 1969 been delayed by just 13 days, none of the astronauts would have made it back to Earth alive. There was an X-class solar flare in the direction of Earth on August 2, 1969 that would have killed the astronauts within seconds. They would have been dead before they even knew what killed them.

Assuming that there is another world with intelligent life capable of space travel, they are not going to be sending anything with biology. They are going to be like us and use mechanical probes and robots to do their exploration initially. Even using machines, they still wouldn't be able to fuel their spacecraft to reach even the nearest star. Which means they would have to devise some means of refueling their vessel in route to their destination.

Then you have to consider why would any aliens even know Earth exists? We have only been transmitting radio waves into space since Guglielmo Marconi invented the radio during the 1890s. Which means the furthest our communications could have possibly traveled is a maximum of 130 light years. Cosmologically-speaking that is a very short distance. We know of every star within that distance, and while many of them have planets, none of those stars are transmitting any artificial signals that we can detect.

Our solar system is located in the suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy, between two spiral arms. We are not in a cluster of stars where everything is relatively close together, we are in the boonies, where star density is at a minimum. So it is extremely unlikely anyone, assuming there is anyone, could detect our presence.

Next one has to consider that in the 13.78 billion years the universe has been around our solar system has only existed for 4.56 billion years, and humans only appears in the last ~4 million years. That leave 9.22 billion years for other solar systems to form life, which then goes extinct, multiple times before our solar system even formed.

Life, in its simplest form, is probably abundant throughout the universe. In order to get beyond simple bacteria and reach complex life requires a relatively stable environment. Using the only example that we have, Earth, it took 4 billion years of relatively safe environment before we reached the Cambrian explosion, and another ~500 million years before you get to us. Unless you are in the suburbs of the Milky Way, like we are, the odds of having a long-term stable environment is not very good.

Also, forget any notion of warp travel or Worm Holes. Yes, warp travel is mathematically possible. However, you would require the mass of Jupiter (using E=mc2

Dilithium crystals are awesome.

 

[calamity]

Why specifically the Christian God?

Because most (if not all) of the claims about that god have been proven to be bull****. Same applies to the other gods thus far defined and explained.

The only god not yet proven to be made up is the one who does mysterious things from a mysterious place that no one understands. Now, if you want to argue that this "Christian God" is that god, well, we might have room to say--m'kay.

And suppose that aliens are just fallen angels instilling fear in the population at Satan's bidding.

Uh, no.

 

[Paradoxical]

Why specifically the Christian God?

And suppose that aliens are just fallen angels instilling fear in the population at Satan's bidding.

Hopefully your post is satire.

 

[Thoreau72]

Dilithium crystals are awesome.

Bob Lazar talked about Element 115 and its ability to somehow change or work with gravity. I'm going with that over dilithium crystals.

 

[bongsaway]

I don't think people who believe aliens from another world visited Earth are able to fathom the distances involved. The closest star to Sol is Proxima Centauri at a distance of 4.244 light years. Which equates to 24,948,890,000,000 miles (40,151,346,428,160 km). NASA's New Horizon spacecraft is traveling at 10.1 miles per second (36,372.6 mph / 58,536 kph). Which means that our fastest spacecraft would take 78,248.4 years just to reach the nearest star - one way.

Then there is the issue of radiation. Space is not a biologically friendly place. If solar radiation doesn't kill you, then cosmic radiation certainly will. There is a very good reason why we have not left low-Earth orbit with a manned-mission since 1972. We got damn lucky between 1969 and 1972. Had the initial lunar landing on July 20, 1969 been delayed by just 13 days, none of the astronauts would have made it back to Earth alive. There was an X-class solar flare in the direction of Earth on August 2, 1969 that would have killed the astronauts within seconds. They would have been dead before they even knew what killed them.

Assuming that there is another world with intelligent life capable of space travel, they are not going to be sending anything with biology. They are going to be like us and use mechanical probes and robots to do their exploration initially. Even using machines, they still wouldn't be able to fuel their spacecraft to reach even the nearest star. Which means they would have to devise some means of refueling their vessel in route to their destination.

Then you have to consider why would any aliens even know Earth exists? We have only been transmitting radio waves into space since Guglielmo Marconi invented the radio during the 1890s. Which means the furthest our communications could have possibly traveled is a maximum of 130 light years. Cosmologically-speaking that is a very short distance. We know of every star within that distance, and while many of them have planets, none of those stars are transmitting any artificial signals that we can detect.

Our solar system is located in the suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy, between two spiral arms. We are not in a cluster of stars where everything is relatively close together, we are in the boonies, where star density is at a minimum. So it is extremely unlikely anyone, assuming there is anyone, could detect our presence.

Life, in its simplest form, is probably abundant throughout the universe. In order to get beyond simple bacteria and reach complex life requires a relatively stable environment. Using the only example that we have, Earth, it took 4 billion years of relatively safe environment before we reached the Cambrian explosion, and another ~500 million years before you get to us. Unless you are in the suburbs of the Milky Way, like we are, the odds of having a long-term stable environment is not very good.

Next one has to consider that in the 13.78 billion years the universe has been around our solar system has only existed for 4.56 billion years, and humans only appear during the last ~4 million years. That leaves 9.22 billion years for other solar systems to form life before our solar system even formed. Lets assume they had a stable environment in the habitable zone of their star for multiple billions of years, like we have. Why would they exist now, at this precise time? They could have evolved millions or even billions of years ago, and have long ago become extinct.

Also, forget any notion of warp travel or wormholes. Yes, warp travel is mathematically possible. However, you would require the mass of Jupiter (using E=mc[SUP]2[/SUP]) just to have the energy to move 1 kg to the nearest star. Wormholes are also a mathematical construct, and unstable. Assuming one had the technology to make a stable wormhole, you are still talking about a minimum mass of three suns at either end of the wormhole. Wormholes are two connected black holes. You cannot ignore the gravitational effects a blackhole generates, even a small one is triple the mass of our sun. Just creating one anywhere near our solar system would completely destroy it. So while it might make for good SciFi TV, it doesn't cut the mustard in reality.

You do mean in your way of thinking of reality. Do we know how old the universe is? We do know the earth is a few billion years old, even though some folks claim it's five thousand years old. So, what if a civilization exists that is a billion years more advanced than us earthlings? How do we know what that civilization may be capable of doing?

I've seen enough military pictures to convince me there are indeed physical 'ships' visiting us from wherever? When two military pilots see the same thing and you can hear the amazement in their voices and see the radar hit on their scopes, yes I do believe we are indeed being visited by other civilizations.

 

[Glitch]

Dilithium crystals are awesome.

They would have to be, if they were somehow more efficient than anti-matter. I'm assuming 100% transfer of mass to energy when using E=mc[SUP]2[/SUP], which can only be accomplished using anti-matter.

 

[Helix]

No, I don't believe in any space alien sightings. We've been in a situation in which eighty percent of the population has been carrying around video cameras constantly for a decade. Someone would have caught definitive footage by now, and it would have been the story of the millennium.

 

[Glitch]

You do mean in your way of thinking of reality. Do we know how old the universe is? We do know the earth is a few billion years old, even though some folks claim it's five thousand years old. So, what if a civilization exists that is a billion years more advanced than us earthlings? How do we know what that civilization may be capable of doing?

I've seen enough military pictures to convince me there are indeed physical 'ships' visiting us from wherever? When two military pilots see the same thing and you can hear the amazement in their voices and see the radar hit on their scopes, yes I do believe we are indeed being visited by other civilizations.

Yes, we know how old the universe is: 13.799 ± 0.021 billion years. We also have a decent understanding of basic physics, like how stars are formed, how long they live, and how they die. Assuming there is or was intelligent life in the universe it is two times more likely to have existed billions of years before our solar system formed. Unless their world orbits an type M star, it is unlikely the solar system even exists today, and even if it did they wouldn't have the time to reach other stars before becoming extinct. Like us, they will putter around in their own solar system, at best, before disappearing billions of years ago.

Like I said, FTL travel is mathematically possible, but not physically practical. In order to have the energy required you would have to convert every planet, asteroid, and comet in the solar system into pure energy, including Earth. It doesn't matter how good alien technology becomes, there is no getting around the fact that wormholes are two connected singularities, and you can only produce a singularity inside the Schwarzschild radius of a blackhole, which is inversely proportional to the square of its mass.

You can believe whatever you like, but basic physics says it could not have been extra-terrestrial in origin.

 

[beefheart]

The one question I always ask the UFO folk: We live in an age where there are hundreds of millions of people, all over the world carrying with them a high-definition video camera, and we have hundreds of millions of security cameras set up everywhere, how come we have no good pictures? The pictures are still unfocused orbs. In fact, there were much more pictures during the 70's (when you could fake them easier).

I never ever get an honest or rational answer from them.

 

[beefheart]

Bob Lazar talked about Element 115 and its ability to somehow change or work with gravity. I'm going with that over dilithium crystals.

And, element 115 has been discovered, and it is nothing like what Lazar said it was.

Moscovium - Wikipedia

 

[Thoreau72]

And, element 115 has been discovered, and it is nothing like what Lazar said it was.

Moscovium - Wikipedia

Yes, Lazar ended up accurately predicting the future, regarding the existence of 115. Dissenters and whistleblowers have an excellent record of speaking the truth in a time of universal deception.

WikiSpooks is as great a propaganda organ as NYT.

 

[Glitch]

Bob Lazar talked about Element 115 and its ability to somehow change or work with gravity. I'm going with that over dilithium crystals.

Consider instead using the Casimir Effect for energy.

What is the Casimir effect? - Scientific American

My personal favorite means of travel would be a hydrogen fusion powered spacecraft, with a hydrogen scoop. When traveling at relativistic speeds, the rarefied hydrogen in interstellar space could be collected for fuel, and at slower than relativistic speeds it could scoop hydrogen from the outer atmosphere of gas giants.

Theoretically speaking, both means of propulsion could be fueled and sustained indefinitely.

The speed of the vessel would still be less than the speed of light, obviously, but it would make interstellar travel possible within human lifespan. Assuming we could build Casimir engines, or develop hydrogen fusion.

 

[beefheart]

Yes, Lazar ended up accurately predicting the future, regarding the existence of 115. Dissenters and whistleblowers have an excellent record of speaking the truth in a time of universal deception.

WikiSpooks is as great a propaganda organ as NYT.

Element 115 has a half-life of only 0.65 seconds. Not exactly usable. As for "predicting the future, regarding the existence of 115", that isn't predicting the future, its a synthesized element, it doesn't exist in any stable form anywhere. I can predict all kinds of elements after 115, we just haven't made them yet, that is not anything amazing.

 

[zyzygy]

Let us not forget that the u stands for unidentified, not alien space ship.

 

[calamity]

Consider instead using the Casimir Effect for energy.

What is the Casimir effect? - Scientific American

My personal favorite means of travel would be a hydrogen fusion powered spacecraft, with a hydrogen scoop. When traveling at relativistic speeds, the rarefied hydrogen in interstellar space could be collected for fuel, and at slower than relativistic speeds it could scoop hydrogen from the outer atmosphere of gas giants.

Theoretically speaking, both means of propulsion could be fueled and sustained indefinitely.

The speed of the vessel would still be less than the speed of light, obviously, but it would make interstellar travel possible within human lifespan. Assuming we could build Casimir engines, or develop hydrogen fusion.

What would be the longest sustained acceleration a human can withstand--2g?

So, it would take 1/2 year to get up to the speed of light and another 1/2 year to slow down. And, that's assuming we can somehow actually travel at anything even close to that velocity, far from a given. Long story short, you are not getting from here to there in a spaceship.

 

[OscarLevant]

I don't think people who believe aliens from another world visited Earth are able to fathom the distances involved. [...]Space is not a biologically friendly place. If solar radiation doesn't kill you, then cosmic radiation certainly will. [...]There was an X-class solar flare in the direction of Earth on August 2, 1969 that would have killed the astronauts within seconds. They would have been dead before they even knew what killed them.

Assuming that there is another world with intelligent life capable of space travel, they are not going to be sending anything with biology. [...]

How do you know how these things travel? You are assuming they operate like human space craft? do you think people during the 19th century, if you told them that it's possible for an AMerican submarine to go decade without refueling they would have believed you ( nuke subs and ships do just that ).

"they wouldn't....."? How do you know this?

Then you have to consider why would any aliens even know Earth exists? We have only been transmitting radio waves into space since Guglielmo Marconi invented the radio during the 1890s. Which means the furthest our communications could have possibly traveled is a maximum of 130 light years. Cosmologically-speaking that is a very short distance. We know of every star within that distance, and while many of them have planets, none of those stars are transmitting any artificial signals that we can detect.

You are assuming they use radio for their communication and detection, how do you know this? You don't think it's possible they've conquered these petty human limitations, if they are a million years ahead of us?

Our solar system is located in the suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy, between two spiral arms. We are not in a cluster of stars where everything is relatively close together, we are in the boonies, where star density is at a minimum. So it is extremely unlikely anyone, assuming there is anyone, could detect our presence.

That's an assumption. There is no way in hell you can assume that aliens a million years more advanced that us are limited by what humans are limited by. Did you not read my OP?

Life, in its simplest form, is probably abundant throughout the universe. In order to get beyond simple bacteria and reach complex life requires a relatively stable environment. Using the only example that we have, Earth, it took 4 billion years of relatively safe environment before we reached the Cambrian explosion, and another ~500 million years before you get to us. Unless you are in the suburbs of the Milky Way, like we are, the odds of having a long-term stable environment is not very good.

Has it not occurred to you that all numbers, compared to infinity, are infinitesimally small?

Next one has to consider that in the 13.78 billion years the universe has been around our solar system has only existed for 4.56 billion years, and humans only appear during the last ~4 million years. That leaves 9.22 billion years for other solar systems to form life before our solar system even formed. Lets assume they had a stable environment in the habitable zone of their star for multiple billions of years, like we have. Why would they exist now, at this precise time? They could have evolved millions or even billions of years ago, and have long ago become extinct.

The problem of synchronicity is not a problem, they started long before we started, and continued throughout our existence,

Also, forget any notion of warp travel or wormholes. Yes, warp travel is mathematically possible. However, you would require the mass of Jupiter (using E=mc[SUP]2[/SUP]) just to have the energy to move 1 kg to the nearest star. Wormholes are also a mathematical construct, and unstable. Assuming one had the technology to make a stable wormhole, you are still talking about a minimum mass of three suns at either end of the wormhole. Wormholes are two connected black holes. You cannot ignore the gravitational effects a blackhole generates, even a small one is triple the mass of our sun. Just creating one anywhere near our solar system would completely destroy it. So while it might make for good SciFi TV, it doesn't cut the mustard in reality.

You are making assumptions arising out of the poverty of man's imagination.

You assume that an advanced alien spacecraft, which might be bubble wrapped in some kind of shield against radiation and inertia and asteroid issues, will be subject to the kinds of things human space craft will be subject to. How would you know this, and why would you assume it?

Think about what you are saying, man.

 

[OscarLevant]

No, I don't believe in any space alien sightings. We've been in a situation in which eighty percent of the population has been carrying around video cameras constantly for a decade. Someone would have caught definitive footage by now, and it would have been the story of the millennium.

There are definite photos galore of alien space craft. Just look for them.

Also, aliens are operating clandestinely, for most of the time, and they can render a craft invisible to radar and human detection at will.

In more than one nuke missile silo, when UFOs were observed by multiple enlisted and officer personel, dozens of nuke silos went offline Not that each silo is completely independent of the other. This is recorded fact, look it up.

also, if the gov is covering them up, and they are, the really good photos aren't being released.

 

[calamity]

How do you know how these things travel? You are assuming they operate like human space craft? do you think people during the 19th century, if you told them that it's possible for an AMerican submarine to go decade without refueling they would have believed you ( nuke subs and ships do just that ).

"they wouldn't....."? How do you know this?

You are assuming they use radio for their communication and detection, how do you know this? You don't think it's possible they've conquered these petty human limitations, if they are a million years ahead of us?

That's an assumption. There is no way in hell you can assume that aliens a million years more advanced that us are limited by what humans are limited by. Did you not read my OP?

Has it not occurred to you that all numbers, compared to infinity, are infinitesimally small?

The problem of synchronicity is not a problem, they started long before we started, and continued throughout our existence,



You are making assumptions arising out of the poverty of man's imagination.

You assume that an advanced alien spacecraft, which might be bubble wrapped in some kind of shield against radiation and inertia and asteroid issues, will be subject to the kinds of things human space craft will be subject to. How would you know this, and why would you assume it?

Think about what you are saying, man.

I agree. We have to assume we know nothing about these other beings and what they do or how they live. They may already have conquered the matter-energy problem and live endless lives as orbs, for all we know. It's impossible to say what the hell is going on someplace nowhere near here.

 

[OscarLevant]

Yes, we know how old the universe is: 13.799 ± 0.021 billion years. We also have a decent understanding of basic physics, like how stars are formed, how long they live, and how they die. Assuming there is or was intelligent life in the universe it is two times more likely to have existed billions of years before our solar system formed. Unless their world orbits an type M star, it is unlikely the solar system even exists today, and even if it did they wouldn't have the time to reach other stars before becoming extinct. Like us, they will putter around in their own solar system, at best, before disappearing billions of years ago.

Like I said, FTL travel is mathematically possible, but not physically practical. In order to have the energy required you would have to convert every planet, asteroid, and comet in the solar system into pure energy, including Earth. It doesn't matter how good alien technology becomes, there is no getting around the fact that wormholes are two connected singularities, and you can only produce a singularity inside the Schwarzschild radius of a blackhole, which is inversely proportional to the square of its mass.

You can believe whatever you like, but basic physics says it could not have been extra-terrestrial in origin.

I imagine some physicist in 1802 said the same thing to a guy who said 'in the future, mankind will invent a ship that can go a decade without refueling'. "basic physics, he argues'.

Well, that has come to fruition, we have nuke ships that can go a decade without refueling.

There was a time when man believed he could travel no faster than a horse.


"basic physics' my ass. If you are limited by the poverty of man's imagination, you'll be a skeptic.

 

[OscarLevant]

The one question I always ask the UFO folk: We live in an age where there are hundreds of millions of people, all over the world carrying with them a high-definition video camera, and we have hundreds of millions of security cameras set up everywhere, how come we have no good pictures? The pictures are still unfocused orbs. In fact, there were much more pictures during the 70's (when you could fake them easier).

I never ever get an honest or rational answer from them.

You never get an honest answer? Have you even researched this to any degree at all?

There are tons of photos of alien space craft. If you don't know this, it demonstrates you are not curious.

But, why even do that, because when skeptics are shown photos, they jsut say they are fake.

Here's an old 40s circa 40s kgb video on a real alien, just go on youtube, and search for 'skinny bob'. ( that's the internet nick name for the guy', and there's a lot of videos on the same thing, with analysis done. )

Also, read Dr. David Jacob's "Walking Among Us', and explains, in great detail, that they are operating clandestinely and have mastered cloaking technology, they can render their ships invisible. they can do things we would call 'magic'. But, yesterday's magic is today's science .

In the film era, hoax were done by hanging things like hubcaps on a thin wire. Today, it's much easier to hoax, with digital graphics technology.