Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Correct me if I am wrong, but police dispatchers are not actual police officers and do not have the authority to order you to do something. Therefore, being told "not to get out of the car" by a police dispatcher is not a valid order he was forced to follow by law. Again, please correct me if I am mistaken.

Generally they are not police officers in a legal sense. However, even if the dispatcher was, that doesn't make disregarding the police an act of murder. When disregarding an instruction from a police officer is an offense itself is not a simple question. Even if so, it is a misdemeanor, and since it all just over the telephone and not something the dispatcher saw, that instruction may not have been knowledgeable and therefore not reasonable to follow anyway.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

How so? If you are going to say something like that please explain. His nose, or grassy clothes only supports that Zimmerman started a fight. Does nothing to support your idea that him assualting the kid was justified.

What a bizarre statement. If you are in a fight and you have a bloody nose, obviously you started the fight? That makes exactly no sense. There is NO evidence I've read of that Zimmerman started the fight. However, that there was a fight before shooting does indication Zimmerman's initial motives was not to shoot Martin. If so, no fight would have occurred.

If I have to GUESS what happened, it is this. Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin turned. Martin asked "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman asked "what are you doing around here?" Who knows which said it first. A shove (by one of them) lead to a fight - and Zimmerman was losing and down on the ground. Maybe they both were and now struggling over the gun or Zimmerman (rightly or wrongly) believing he had to shot to stop from being beat up more.

Some mess like that. But my guessing that doesn't make innocence or guilt. HOWEVER, under FLORIDA laws, if something like that even remotely possibly happened, he cannot be convicted.

A closer examination of Zimmerman's injuries, non-gun shot injuries of Martin, and the range and angle of the shot, will tell much - and none of us know that information as of now.

Whether it is "murder" as a matter of ethics is a different question. I'm looking at it as a law enforcement and criminal justice question under Florida statutes.

Nearly 1 million people in Florida have concealed handgun permits. I suspect even a larger number carry a handgun without a permit. Unless the person is wearing spandex, in Florida you presume everyone has a gun. Many a heated argument and fight ended up with someone shot because one or the other didn't realize one of them had a gun. If the person with the gun is on the ground getting kicked, he's gonna shoot. Or even if tempers get too hot. In a case here, two neighbors got into a fight and as one drove off the other threw a brick through the windshield. The other then shot and killed the brick-thrower. Yet for many, many years they had been best friends and it an argument that escalated out of control.

People are trying to simplify the Zimmerman shooting to fit the conclusions they want - either way. Its not that easy from a legal perspective. Whether Zimmerman is "in the wrong" is not the same question of whether he is convictable under Florida law upon what evidence is and isn't provable.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What a bizarre statement. If you are in a fight and you have a bloody nose, obviously you started the fight? That makes exactly no sense.

When you admittedly chase someone who is trying to get away from you, and plenty of eye witnesses see you start a fight, then you obviously started the fight. Don't try to twist things. If you have a valid argument dont resort to such dishonest tactics.

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Pretty sure you are being sarcastic, right?

Yes, I was being sarcastic for the hood on and dangerous comment.

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What a bizarre statement. If you are in a fight and you have a bloody nose, obviously you started the fight? That makes exactly no sense. There is NO evidence I've read of that Zimmerman started the fight. However, that there was a fight before shooting does indication Zimmerman's initial motives was not to shoot Martin. If so, no fight would have occurred.

If I have to GUESS what happened, it is this. Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin turned. Martin asked "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman asked "what are you doing around here?" Who knows which said it first. A shove (by one of them) lead to a fight - and Zimmerman was losing and down on the ground. Maybe they both were and now struggling over the gun or Zimmerman (rightly or wrongly) believing he had to shot to stop from being beat up more.

Some mess like that. But my guessing that doesn't make innocence or guilt. HOWEVER, under FLORIDA laws, if something like that even remotely possibly happened, he cannot be convicted.

Whether it is "murder" as a matter of ethics is a different question. I'm looking at it as a law enforcement and criminal justice question under Florida statutes.

What is the legal arguement here that you are looking at? What legal protections are there in the State of Florida for discharging a firearm and killing someone that does not put you in custody?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

he was also black. Zimmermann repeats this dangerous fact several times.

very dangerous & suspect indeed. Zimmermann..that is.

The police asked him specifically what race Martin was. So that is exactly nothing.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What is the legal arguement here that you are looking at? What legal protections are there in the State of Florida for discharging a firearm and killing someone that does not put you in custody?

That's just nonsense. Its not illegal to kill someone. It is only illegal to murder someone. Florida law specifically allows a person to shoot (use deadly force) another person in many, many circumstances. The legal presumption is innocence, not guilt. I would think most people would know that.

What is hard to understand about this? Two people. One on the ground, shot to death. The other holding the gun. Confirmed the bullet came from that gun. The person takes the 5th. Unless the police can prove it was murder, there is no case in Florida. Maybe other states assume guilt unless an "affirmative defense" is made, but not in Florida.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

That's just nonsense. Its not illegal to kill someone. It is only illegal to murder someone. Florida law specifically allows a person to shoot (use deadly force) another person in many, many circumstances.

Which circumstance does this fall into?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Which circumstance does this fall into?

As far as we know from what little the media as presented (if accurate), it is unknown which. Forensics may reveal much now not known.

Really not liking how this happens isn't really leading to him being found guilty of anything. In fact, if the police rushed this before forensics, it would give his defense team a better defense, showing police so pre-determining the case as to determine him guilty even before the evidence known. That makes evidence suspect because then there is motive to the police to manipulate it to back themselves up.

Also, "interrogation" techniques would suggest NOT arresting him, as doing so more likely means he'll say "I want a lawyer" and not 1 in 10,000 lawyers would allow him to say another word to police. Plus once he is formally arrested he MUST be given a lawyer. Not until then. Because this matter GREATLY relies on what Zimmerman says, they would NOT want him having a lawyer in on this because then Zimmerman is going to clam up.

When you tell someone "you're under arrest" often is only AFTER you've gotten all you can out of a suspect. The decision to make the arrest may have been made before this, but delayed to maximize how much the suspect will say. In interrogations, police often start with "we understand and we're on your side, we just need some details to fill out the report," when it known they are going to arrest the person. Interrogation allows police to lie and given disinformation. But as soon as a suspect is arrested, he only more likely will say he wants a lawyer, but a lawyer even has to be appointed - and that ends any more interviews of the suspect.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The police asked him specifically what race Martin was. So that is exactly nothing.

he then mentions it again, without being asked.

he then calls him an asshole.

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

That's just nonsense. Its not illegal to kill someone. It is only illegal to murder someone. Florida law specifically allows a person to shoot (use deadly force) another person in many, many circumstances. The legal presumption is innocence, not guilt. I would think most people would know that.

What is hard to understand about this? Two people. One on the ground, shot to death. The other holding the gun. Confirmed the bullet came from that gun. The person takes the 5th. Unless the police can prove it was murder, there is no case in Florida.

There is a dead person with bullet holes in them. There is a gun. There is a person with positive possession of the gun. The gun is registered to that person. The person admits shooting the other person. The dead person has no weapons on them. The dead person is in public. There is enough true information in those statements to provide reasonable doubt in Zimmerman's innocence. It is not the job of the police to determine if Zimmerman is innoncent. They have enough information to charge him and let a jury decide.

How come it is so easy for you to rationally explain away why there is a dead person in public? How do you know there was a wrestle on the ground? You/we don't. What we know is there is a dead person, and a person who admits shooting them. Let a jury figure out the rest.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Florida has many unusual laws. I call this on the "legality of beating someone to death" law:

782.03 Excusable homicide.--Homicide is excusable when committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent, or by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, without any dangerous weapon being used and not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

Thus, if someone shoves you ("provocation" and "sudden combat"), you can beat that person to death (no weapons) provided you do so quickly and skillfully.

Try to figure out a legal meaning of "misfortune."

What do you make of the w/o any dangerous weapon phrase there?

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

As far as we know from what little the media as presented (if accurate), it is unknown which. Forensics may reveal much now not known.

Really not liking how this happens isn't really leading to him being found guilty of anything. In fact, if the police rushed this before forensics, it would give his defense team a better defense, showing police so pre-determining the case as to determine him guilty even before the evidence known. That makes evidence suspect because then there is motive to the police to manipulate it to back themselves up.

Also, "interrogation" techniques would suggest NOT arresting him, as doing so more likely means he'll say "I want a lawyer" and not 1 in 10,000 lawyers would allow him to say another word to police. Plus once he is formally arrested he MUST be given a lawyer. Not until then. Because this matter GREATLY relies on what Zimmerman says, they would NOT want him having a lawyer in on this because then Zimmerman is going to clam up.

When you tell someone "you're under arrest" often is only AFTER you've gotten all you can out of a suspect. The decision to make the arrest may have been made before this, but delayed to maximize how much the suspect will say. In interrogations, police often start with "we understand and we're on your side, we just need some details to fill out the report," when it known they are going to arrest the person. Interrogation allows police to lie and given disinformation. But as soon as a suspect is arrested, he only more likely will say he wants a lawyer, but a lawyer even has to be appointed - and that ends any more interviews of the suspect.

That is a whole lotta typing. Let me see if I understood this correctly by summarizing.

I asked you "Which circumstance does this fall into?" and your response is "I don't know" or "none".

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

As far as we know from what little the media as presented (if accurate), it is unknown which.

What we know is not from little media reports. We have heard the actual 911 tapes. We have heard eye witness accounts. We have heard from the guys girlfriend who was on the phone with him while he was freaking out about a man chasing him. We have a dead body. We know the kid was unarmed. We know the kid was trying to get away. We know the kid had no previous history of violence.

Those are all things we know that point to guilt. What do we know about why this may be warranted? He wore a hoodie. That about sums it up.

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

As far as we know from what little the media as presented (if accurate), it is unknown which. Forensics may reveal much now not known.

Really not liking how this happens isn't really leading to him being found guilty of anything. In fact, if the police rushed this before forensics, it would give his defense team a better defense, showing police so pre-determining the case as to determine him guilty even before the evidence known. That makes evidence suspect because then there is motive to the police to manipulate it to back themselves up.

Also, "interrogation" techniques would suggest NOT arresting him, as doing so more likely means he'll say "I want a lawyer" and not 1 in 10,000 lawyers would allow him to say another word to police. Plus once he is formally arrested he MUST be given a lawyer. Not until then. Because this matter GREATLY relies on what Zimmerman says, they would NOT want him having a lawyer in on this because then Zimmerman is going to clam up.

When you tell someone "you're under arrest" often is only AFTER you've gotten all you can out of a suspect. The decision to make the arrest may have been made before this, but delayed to maximize how much the suspect will say. In interrogations, police often start with "we understand and we're on your side, we just need some details to fill out the report," when it known they are going to arrest the person. Interrogation allows police to lie and given disinformation. But as soon as a suspect is arrested, he only more likely will say he wants a lawyer, but a lawyer even has to be appointed - and that ends any more interviews of the suspect.

Why are you for this guy being not charged right now?

 

[mac]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

If anyone was defending himself in this case, it was the kid that got shot and was murdered.

 

[Tettsuo]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What a bizarre statement. If you are in a fight and you have a bloody nose, obviously you started the fight? That makes exactly no sense. There is NO evidence I've read of that Zimmerman started the fight. However, that there was a fight before shooting does indication Zimmerman's initial motives was not to shoot Martin. If so, no fight would have occurred.

If I have to GUESS what happened, it is this. Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin turned. Martin asked "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman asked "what are you doing around here?" Who knows which said it first. A shove (by one of them) lead to a fight - and Zimmerman was losing and down on the ground. Maybe they both were and now struggling over the gun or Zimmerman (rightly or wrongly) believing he had to shot to stop from being beat up more.

Martin would be acting in self-defense as from his prespective, he's being stalked by some large man who is actively chasing him. Now, you cannot claim self-defense if you start a confrontation and get your ass kicked. It doesn't work that way. Since no one but Zimmerman and Martin (who's now dead) know how the wrestling started exactly, we do know that Zimmerman had every intention of confronting the innocent teen Martin. His previous statements tell us he wanted to not have another one get away. If we're speculating, I'd say he tried to detain Martin until the cops arrived. Fearing for his safety, Martin tried to get away and struck Zimmerman. All of this removing self-defense protection from Zimmerman's actions. Thus, 2nd degree murder would be the charge most fitting.

Some mess like that. But my guessing that doesn't make innocence or guilt. HOWEVER, under FLORIDA laws, if something like that even remotely possibly happened, he cannot be convicted.

Incorrect. You cannot start a fight and kill someone when you get beat up.

 

[mac]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Picture this:

You're a seventeen year old kid walking down the street, at night, on your way to a buddy's house. Suddenly you hear a car door slam and a guy starts approaching you and appears aggressive. You quicken your step, he quickens his. You now believe he is approaching you with violent motives...you begin to run away, and he begins to run after you, possibly brandishing a firearm.




Who do you think is the aggressor in this situation?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Its not illegal to kill someone. It is only illegal to murder someone.

This is mis-information. Not all illegal homicides are murder.

Zimmerman having a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, and wet grass on the back of his shirt would seem to contradict that assertion you make.

How did that grass get inside Zimmerman's car?

 

[Tettsuo]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What we know is not from little media reports. We have heard the actual 911 tapes. We have heard eye witness accounts. We have heard from the guys girlfriend who was on the phone with him while he was freaking out about a man chasing him. We have a dead body. We know the kid was unarmed. We know the kid was trying to get away. We know the kid had no previous history of violence.

Those are all things we know that point to guilt. What do we know about why this may be warranted? He wore a hoodie. That about sums it up.

Exactly. How much proof is needed for some people to see the man is guilty? My guess is, far too much to be reasonable.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What we know is not from little media reports. We have heard the actual 911 tapes. We have heard eye witness accounts. We have heard from the guys girlfriend who was on the phone with him while he was freaking out about a man chasing him. We have a dead body. We know the kid was unarmed. We know the kid was trying to get away. We know the kid had no previous history of violence.

Those are all things we know that point to guilt. What do we know about why this may be warranted? He wore a hoodie. That about sums it up.

share with us what caused zimmerman's bloody nose (as reported by the miami herald and/or broken nose, as presented in other accounts, together with reference to a scalp laceration and indication of grass stains on his clothes)

 

[lizzie]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Exactly. How much proof is needed for some people to see the man is guilty? My guess is, far too much to be reasonable.

The man is not on trial at this point. All we have is public speculation.

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Exactly. How much proof is needed for some people to see the man is guilty? My guess is, far too much to be reasonable.

Not even the question of is he guilty, but the question is, is there evidence here that shows he may be guilty of a crime. And yes, there is sufficient evidence.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

is the guy guilty of murder? only a jury or a judge can decide that.

but at the very least, there is enough evidence to arrest him and charge him with manslaughter or murder.

I have no doubt a grand jury will agree........if the authorities show some integrity and arrest the guy.

 

[mac]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

share with us what caused zimmerman's bloody nose (as reported by the miami herald and/or broken nose, as presented in other accounts, together with reference to a scalp laceration and indication of grass stains on his clothes)

The result of the kid defending himself after being accosted by Zimmerman.