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Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

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Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I believe there is adequate evidence here to suspect murder. The fact that Zimmerman is saying that he acted out in self defense does not give him a get out of jail free card. So yes, Zimmerman does not have to prove that he was defending himself, but I think there is substantial evidence to show that he has to prove that he didn't murder an unarmed teenager.

Suspected murder adds up to nothing. He doesn't have to prove he didn't murder the other person. The government has to prove he did with certainty - and like all criminal cases it is assumed by law that he didn't unless and until the government prove otherwise. This may well be a case in which a person "got away with murder for lack of evidence." He stands perfectly "innocent" and remains so unless the government proves that he is absolutely guilty. That's a very high mountain to climb in this case under Florida laws.

If Zimmerman has any sense - and I doubt he does - he won't say another word to police other than "I want a lawyer" - who would tell him to shut up 100%. Without Zimmerman shooting himself down in what he says, this is likely an impossible case to "prove."
 
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Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Prove it.

Your view of law is just wrong. A person doesn't have to prove self-defense. A person never has to prove they are innocent. The government has to prove they are guilty - and in Florida - that there is absolutely no other possibility anyone can even imagine.

Nobody should have to prove self defense. But, if it was a black person shooting a white person, there would have been no delay in taking that shooter into custody.

In all likelihood, Zimmerman would not be convicted here. That doesn't mean the police should be judge and jury and decide that.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I checked Florida law. Murder is illegal there.

Tell that to Caylee Anthony. The outcome of that case truly sickened me.
 
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Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Nobody should have to prove self defense. But, if it was a black person shooting a white person, there would have been no delay in taking that shooter into custody.

In all likelihood, Zimmerman would not be convicted here. That doesn't mean the police should be judge and jury and decide that.

Declaring all white people and all police are racists as you seem to assert is just so much junk. I agree the district attorney should send it to the grand jury and it is likely they will do exactly that. However, grand jury proceedings can and often are secret (for various reasons). It won't be the police who make the decision whether to do so. It will be the prosecutor's office.

If I remember hearing the Zimmerman 911 call correctly, when he first called 911 he didn't know the teen's race or at least didn't mention it, even when asked. It was only when he said the teen was approaching him did he say the race and then only after the police had asked him specifically. He didn't call 911 saying "there's a suspicious black person."

Would you be so raging if the teen was white? Would this have even made national news?
 
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Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Declaring all white people and all police are racists as you seem to assert is just so much junk. I agree the district attorney should send it to the grand jury and it is likely they will do exactly that. However, grand jury proceedings can and often are secret (for various reasons). It won't be the police who make the decision whether to do so. It will be the prosecutor's office.

If I remember hearing the Zimmerman 911 call correctly, when he first called 911 he didn't know the teen's race or at least didn't mention it, even when asked. It was only when he said the teen was approaching him did he say the race and then only after the police had asked him specifically. He didn't call 911 saying "there's a suspicious black person."

Would you be so raging if the teen was white? Would this have even made national news?

What does it being national news have to do with it? The media doesn't care when minority children go missing. They only care when cute white girls go missing. You can't blame people here for the media's editorial bias.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Suspected murder adds up to nothing. He doesn't have to prove he didn't murder the other person. The government has to prove he did with certainty - and like all criminal cases it is assumed by law that he didn't unless and until the government prove otherwise. This may well be a case in which a person "got away with murder for lack of evidence." He stands perfectly "innocent" and remains so unless the government proves that he is absolutely guilty. That's a very high mountain to climb in this case under Florida laws.

If Zimmerman has any sense - and I doubt he does - he won't say another word to police other than "I want a lawyer" - who would tell him to shut up 100%. Without Zimmerman shooting himself down in what he says, this is likely an impossible case to "prove."

There is adequate amount of suspicion for the police to charge him. He can lawyer up all he wants, but I think the public would be at least somewhat satisfied if there was actually someone changed with the death of an innocent.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Tell that to Caylee Anthony. The outcome of that case truly sickened me.

Different case, different circumstances.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What does it being national news have to do with it? The media doesn't care when minority children go missing. They only care when cute white girls go missing. You can't blame people here for the media's editorial bias.

That is quite true and quite offensive to me. Cute missing blondes make national news. Its disgusting to me. But that wrong doesn't make a right. I'm not blaming anyone here for anything about this.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

There is adequate amount of suspicion for the police to charge him. He can lawyer up all he wants, but I think the public would be at least somewhat satisfied if there was actually someone changed with the death of an innocent.

Yes, let's satisfy the public by charging someone with murder? The NEW legal standard you want is everyone who is a suspect in a crime is arrested and held in jail for months or years until a trial. Welcome to the ultimate police state you want. All suspects are imprisoned until proven innocent and everyone the public doesn't like is charged with something to satisfy popular opinion.

The DA should send it to a grand jury to indict or not. To hell with "the public." They're just the mob knee-jerk reacting to whatever media is stirring them up about at the moment.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

there is reasonable suspicion to believe that the guy refused to follow the police's direct instruction NOT to confront the kid.

there is evidence that he tried to stop the kid, in violation of the kid's civil rights.

there is evidence that the guy shot the kid as the kid was running away.

how do you NOT arrest the guy, with such evidence?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

There is adequate amount of suspicion for the police to charge him. He can lawyer up all he wants, but I think the public would be at least somewhat satisfied if there was actually someone changed with the death of an innocent.

Public opinion should not matter in cases of law.

Personally? I think Zimmerman crossed the line of reasonable behavior, and he apparently has a history of frequent calls to the police department to report "suspicious" individuals in the neighborhood. Even with that being the case, public opinion should have no bearing whatsoever on how the legal process is followed. Remember the Salem witch trials? That was an example of how things tend to go when public outcry overrides legal process.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Trying to make this a case about race is not going to get anything done. From what I have heard this is about a guy who fancied himself a cop and feels like he has the right to use lethal force whenever he chooses. The shooters life, nor the lives of anyone else was in danger. From what I have heard no one even had a reasonable cause to believe they were in danger.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

there is reasonable suspicion to believe that the guy refused to follow the police's direct instruction NOT to confront the kid.

there is evidence that he tried to stop the kid, in violation of the kid's civil rights.

there is evidence that the guy shot the kid as the kid was running away.

how do you NOT arrest the guy, with such evidence?

Well, for one, your changing facts to other than what they are really wouldn't hold up in court, would it?

It is known (as reported anyway) that at the time of the shooting, Martin was NOT running away. A scuffle was recorded and two witnesses said there was a fight going on outside (before gun fire). Zimmerman had a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, grass on his back which also was wet.

So your claim that Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was running away is just 100% opposite the facts by both physical evidence and 2 uninvolved witnesses. There also is what appears the fact that the fight broke out and was well along before the shot was fired. It also known the fight going on long enough for TWO people to also call 911 - apparently before the shot fired. There is the 911 call of Zimmerman prior to this saying Martin was glaring at him and one point turned to approach Zimmerman while he was talking to the police. There was fear, not hate, in Zimmerman's voice in that 911 call. He made no racist slurs or indicated any intention to confront or harm Martin in that call.

Nor is it known that it was Zimmerman who approached Martin later. Instead, Zimmerman agreed to meet police at the gate. There isn't actually evidence that Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher - that is just asserted. The phone 911 call by Zimmerman was before what happened, as was the claimed call to the 16 year old girl according to her. The only witnesses to the incident independently told police on 911 there was a struggle or conflict going on outside. I didn't read they also claimed they heard a gunshot - but those tapes not made public yet.

So YOUR simple claim that Zimmerman stalked down Martin and shot Martin while Martin was trying to run away from him contradicts all known apparent facts. For all we know, Zimmerman told the police that Martin again turned and charged him, slugging Zimmerman knocking him to the ground and then was kicking or stomping Zimmerman in the head when Zimmerman fired. If so, disprove it.

We do not know the forensics - such as range of the shot and angle of the hit. If it was from down and upward very close, it would support such a claim. It the shot fired within inches, it was a struggle over the gun after a fight already going. If it was a long distance shot and in the back, then and only then would it support your asserted fact that Martin was running away.

Unlike you, I'm a person who believes the evidence is gathered BEFORE making decisions - not making the decisions and then trying to find the evidence to back-the-presumption up (a typical problem with some police and prosecutions - deciding before the evidence is all known - then leading to temptations to pick and choice what evidence they make known to support their assumption of guilt - or making a deal with a jailhouse snitch claiming the accused "confessed" in jail when lacking evidence otherwise.) It seems in law enforcement that would be your practice. You decide yourself whether or not someone is guilty and would act on that gut instinct - and THEN only later would you learn about the evidence. Imprison all suspects, even just to make the public happy.

Finally, the media screws up when reporting details, and limits what they tell and how they tell it once they go into the political editorializing mode - which essentially all networks do now. They don't just tell you what happened as they want you to know, they tell you what to think about it too - and pick their words to back that up.
 
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Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Yes, let's satisfy the public by charging someone with murder? The NEW legal standard you want is everyone who is a suspect in a crime is arrested and held in jail for months or years until a trial. Welcome to the ultimate police state you want. All suspects are imprisoned until proven innocent and everyone the public doesn't like is charged with something to satisfy popular opinion.

The DA should send it to a grand jury to indict or not. To hell with "the public." They're just the mob knee-jerk reacting to whatever media is stirring them up about at the moment.

I don't want a new legal standard, I want the current one upheld. I want him charged. I don't want him held in jail for months. Where did I say that. People get charged with crimes all the time and do not get held in jail for months or years until trial.

You also bring up how the Caylee Anthony case made you sick, and that was the ultimate media stir up.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmermann was told not to get out of his car. Zimmermann got out of his car was looking for the kid and was trying to follow him.

Zimmermann says on the phone "these assholes always get away".

these are facts that we know.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It is known (as reported anyway) that at the time of the shooting, Martin was NOT running away. A scuffle was recorded and two witnesses said there was a fight going on outside (before gun fire). Zimmerman had a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, grass on his back which also was wet.

Not sure how true this is, but even if it is, when Zimmerman attacked Martin, Martin certainly had every right to defend himself. How about you show me something that shows how Martin was a threat?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Not sure how true this is, but even if it is, when Zimmerman attacked Martin, Martin certainly had every right to defend himself. How about you show me something that shows how Martin was a threat?

He had a hood on. Very dangerous and suspect.

There was no reason for this entire event.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmermann, let alone any other non-LEO, had no right to stop Martin's travel. if he tried to prevent Martin from moving, that's an illegal arrest. Martin would have every right to physically defend himself in such a scenario.

Martin was not being witnessed committing a crime, therefore a citizens' arrest or preventing his movement, was not legal.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

He had a hood on. Very dangerous and suspect....

he was also black. Zimmermann repeats this dangerous fact several times.

very dangerous & suspect indeed. Zimmermann..that is.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmermann was told not to get out of his car. Zimmermann got out of his car was looking for the kid and was trying to follow him.

Zimmermann says on the phone "these assholes always get away".

these are facts that we know.

Correct me if I am wrong, but police dispatchers are not actual police officers and do not have the authority to order you to do something. Therefore, being told "not to get out of the car" by a police dispatcher is not a valid order he was forced to follow by law. Again, please correct me if I am mistaken.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Trying to make this a case about race is not going to get anything done. From what I have heard this is about a guy who fancied himself a cop and feels like he has the right to use lethal force whenever he chooses. The shooters life, nor the lives of anyone else was in danger. From what I have heard no one even had a reasonable cause to believe they were in danger.

Zimmerman having a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, and wet grass on the back of his shirt would seem to contradict that assertion you make.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman having a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head, and wet grass on the back of his shirt would seem to contradict that assertion you make.

How so? If you are going to say something like that please explain. His nose, or grassy clothes only supports that Zimmerman started a fight. Does nothing to support your idea that him assualting the kid was justified.
 
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