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Faith and madness, am I too harsh?

Not true...with the exception of the book of Matthew, which was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek, all the other 26 books were written in the common Greek, Koine, the international language of the day...

Well, there is the statement that Matthew was first written in Hebrew. However, the book that is currently in the Gospel , the Greek versions, have no indication that it was translated from the Hebrew. The person who claimed that Matthew wrote in the Hebrew did not quote from what is called 'The Gospel of Matthew' at all. This leads to the conclusion that 1) Either the person who claims the Gospel of Matthew wrote first in the Hebrew was wrong,, or 2) The book that is currently called 'The Gospel of Matthew' is not the book that is being referred to.

When a book is translated, there are indications in the text (sentence structure and syntax) that it was a translation. The Gospel of Mathew does not have those indications.
 
Well, there is the statement that Matthew was first written in Hebrew. However, the book that is currently in the Gospel , the Greek versions, have no indication that it was translated from the Hebrew. The person who claimed that Matthew wrote in the Hebrew did not quote from what is called 'The Gospel of Matthew' at all. This leads to the conclusion that 1) Either the person who claims the Gospel of Matthew wrote first in the Hebrew was wrong,, or 2) The book that is currently called 'The Gospel of Matthew' is not the book that is being referred to.

When a book is translated, there are indications in the text (sentence structure and syntax) that it was a translation. The Gospel of Mathew does not have those indications.
How Can a Torah Commentary
be Source-Critical and Jewish?

Perhaps the simplest answer would be that it cannot, that is, that there is no room in the Jewish tradition of attempting to understand the Torah for the recognition of literary strata as a key to the meaning of the text.
https://thetorah.com/how-can-a-torah-commentary-be-source-critical-and-jewish/

Same question to you, RAMOSS?
 
You seem to be conflating atoms in the universe with the total number of facts that can be known. The latter is very much greater than the former--indeed, the latter is probably infinite. I think that's probably demonstrable, but the demonstration I have in mind is a bit pedantic. I'll post it if you want, but I think it doesn't really get to the point. Usually when we speak of knowledge we speak of knowing facts that are actually worth knowing, and probably most of the facts that might be known are worthless.

I tend to think that Socrates is probably going to have the last laugh on all of us: human knowledge and wisdom is worth very much less than we usually take them to be worth. I have two master's degrees (one MA and one MS) and a PhD, and I'm continually struck by how very little I know, and how likely it is that what I take myself to know is probably wrong, or only approximately correct. I suspect that's what your interlocutor was trying to impress; I'm afraid I cannot be sure, since I didn't observe the exchange.

But anyway, why should it matter? I think from the perspective of the religious, people with what Peter Unger has called the "Scientiphical Metaphysic" (a term he intended to have roots in both science and philosophy) have constructed what they insist is a complete model of the universe, and often argue as if that model is in principle capable of explaining everything. Not that such explanations are as yet available, but that, with a little luck, they will be eventually, and under this model our representations of the whole universe and every last particle in it will fit together like the pieces of a fantastically large jigsaw. Human reason will have been harmonized utterly with reality, which in turn will be shown to be consistent with our reasoning. And in light of that picture--of the very fact of the existence of that triumphant picture--religions should be abandoned as outmoded and outdated pictures that were attempts at the very same project under which this newer better model was constructed. But religious people see that whole argument as flawed at every step starting with the premises, and while some of them certainly challenge it for insane reasons, some of them challenge it for reasons that strike me as fairly sane.



Again, I'm sure some religious people do try to make that argument (i.e. we don't know, therefore God!). But astute religious people recognize as keenly as you that such an argument is just nonsense. People who are religious have other reasons for being religious. I myself have, and they're not reasons I can really share with anyone. When I point out how little we know, it's not to say that this by itself constitutes proof of God. Rather, it's to show that the attack on religion as sketched above simply cannot succeed. The claims made for how certain is the Scientiphical Metaphysic, and actually how certain it is, are very far apart. Other aspects of the attack are fatally flawed, as far as I can see.

As to those other reasons for being religious, they have apparently little to do with upbringing in the sense of having been brainwashed by fundamentalist parents. Again, some people are in that situation, but most religious people are not. Their upbringing may have shown them something that another kind of upbringing would not have done, but that's rather different from brainwashing. For myself, I think actually very few people in contemporary western culture are capable of being genuinely religious, and if you're not one of those, you shouldn't be. Attempts to convert others are, in this day and age, not only stupid, but at least slightly evil.



I'm sure it seems that way to you. It probably seems just the reverse to a religious person.

Great post, man. Mega kudos...
 
Not true...with the exception of the book of Matthew, which was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek, all the other 26 books were written in the common Greek, Koine, the international language of the day...

I am sure you can not provide evidence that the Gospel of Matthew that currently is accepted in the bible today was originally written in Hebrew, outside the claim of an early church father. Do you have any physical evidence, other than unsupported claims of early church fathers?
 
I've answered this stupid question of yours three times. Why do you keep asking it?
The video shows no such thing.
No CrashCourse video shows any such thing.
I posted it for the viewing pleasure and information of those who were not familiar with the arguments ataraxia and I had referenced.
I did not post them for someone who doesn't recognize the purpose of videos like these.
I did not post them for unpleasant contrarians to waste my time with drivel about these videos.

Are we done now?

Namaste.

You have just shown that you have never watched the video.

In the video he says who it was, another monk, back in the day, who first pointed out why the argument does not work.

Challenge; Who was the second monk?

If you watch it you will find out. I bet you don't.
 

You have just shown that you have never watched the video.

In the video he says who it was, another monk, back in the day, who first pointed out why the argument does not work.

Challenge; Who was the second monk?

If you watch it you will find out. I bet you don't.
Gaunilo. Note the time stamp and stop pestering me with stupid questions.

Namaste.
 
I have an MA in Humanities (religious studies track), MS in Cognitive Science, and PhD in Philosophy.

Well done, but you will have to excuse my lack of being all that impressed with any field of study which can never advance humanity at all.
 
I watched some of a program examining the inmates of a US mental instution last night.

They were predominately schizopathic. The characteristics of this generally include an obsession with religion.

I don't know the degree to which the religion is the cause of the effect or if they simply reinforce each other.

The point i am coming to in this thread is that the denial of reality/evaision/lying I find coming from the religious is not perhaps as concious or deliberate as I presume.

The mindset that has little skepticism in dealing with the god question has the same lack of barrier to any random thought coming into their head. The man who had been speeding due to the primemister of Israel telling him to do so in his mind via telepathy has little processing ability to stop any idea from gaining a sense of being real in his head.

Similarly the guy who had problems with voices and seeing things that were not there would be hard pressed to hold out against the bombardment of ideas that the modern world throws at us all.

Perhaps the best way to reduce madness is to teach good methodology of thinking and link that with simple demanding physical tasks. I reccomend dry stone walling as the most sanity building task there is but whatever works.

Is the lack of ability for atheists like myself to communicate with the religious here because we are not addressing the basic methods of thinking or that we are in fact doing this and the religious are so deeply, either naturally or by indoctrination, in a different mental structure?

Insane people also have the characteristics of turning aggressive to others. Your speculation here more or less like drawing the conclusion that soldiers must be insane in killing the enemies in a battlefield.

The nature of killing people by insane people is completely different from that done by insane people.

Similarly, the nature of religion is completely different from delusions out of humans, even though both may share characteristics superficially.

The nature of religion is about how humans can reach the future, or what could possibly happen in the future after our death. This future has always been made unknowable to humans. The nature of humans is that they are all cut from direct access of both the past (you may not realize) and the future. We however can have indirect access to both ends. In a nutshell, the indirect way for humans to reach the past is our human history. Very similarly, the indirect (only possible way) for humans to reach a future is through answers provided by the various religions.

You are cut for reaching the past directly such that you can't even tell what you yourself just did today but a year ago. However if someone wrote about it (or taped it in modern world), we can thus know what you did that day by putting faith in the author of that piece of writing (or tape/video). This process is called human witnessing. Humans will have to rely (heavily if not exclusively) on human witnessing to reach what could possibly happened in the past. This process involves several key factor.

- Someone (more likely an eyewitness or yourself) wrote about what you did. He's a witness composing the writing.
- Others need to put faith in him (more important than the writing/tape/video itself) to believe what is said.
- The message needs to be spread, or broadcast, or preached in order for the contents of the writing/tape/video to reach all other humans.

These are the 3 key factors of how we humans can reach the past as our history. What we examine here is the credibility of the author for a piece of info to be considered factual.

This human witnessing process not only applicable to history, it is applicable to almost all kinds of truth including how humans can reach a scientific truth!
 
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[continue]

To list a few here;
When we see videos of UFO made by some nobodies, we won't take them as factual. If however it is announced by NASA and broadcast by CNN, we will take it as factual. This is because through this human witnessing process, we examine the credibility of the author (instead of examining the proof or evidence) to determine a fact or truth.

We all know for a fact that black holes exists. However the vast majority of humans don't have the evidence themselves. The credibility of our scientists (as witnesses) make us to determine that the existence of black holes is factual.

Religion is about the same route, but for us humans to reach a possible truth about the future. It is an access of the future indirectly. The route works with the same set of key factors. The witnesses of God wrote about their encounters and understanding, preach the writings for the contents to reach all other humans, and for humans to believe it as factual or not. Humans can also examine the credibility of the authors and contents if you would apply the same standard as how you examine the books of history.

Of course there is a prerequisite for employing such a human witnessing process. The prerequisite is that the God involved has a good reason to hide behind that he won't be able to address all mankind directly that the next most effective way of message conveying, which is the process of human witnessing, thus has to be employed.

So other than examining the credibility of authors and writings by applying the same standard of how you examining human history, you can also question the reason why God has to hide behind.

In a nutshell, whether you consider the authors liars or not, this is the only possible way for humans (who are incapable of accessing both the past and future directly) to reach a truth possibly lying ahead!
 
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Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Well done, but you will have to excuse my lack of being all that impressed with any field of study which can never advance humanity at all.

Hmmm...what is an “advance” in your view?

Yeah, sorry about that one, I think I was far too tired to be on here at the time... negativity got the better of me.
 
No worries. Happens to us all (me included).

Glad to hear it. I was worried that the charge of being an arrogant science type was true. Well, I know it was just then, but you know...

And yes, the power of X factor is greater at spreading democracy and westernization than the US Armed forces.
 
I watched some of a program examining the inmates of a US mental instution last night.

They were predominately schizopathic. The characteristics of this generally include an obsession with religion.

I don't know the degree to which the religion is the cause of the effect or if they simply reinforce each other.

The point i am coming to in this thread is that the denial of reality/evaision/lying I find coming from the religious is not perhaps as concious or deliberate as I presume.

The mindset that has little skepticism in dealing with the god question has the same lack of barrier to any random thought coming into their head. The man who had been speeding due to the primemister of Israel telling him to do so in his mind via telepathy has little processing ability to stop any idea from gaining a sense of being real in his head.

Similarly the guy who had problems with voices and seeing things that were not there would be hard pressed to hold out against the bombardment of ideas that the modern world throws at us all.

Perhaps the best way to reduce madness is to teach good methodology of thinking and link that with simple demanding physical tasks. I reccomend dry stone walling as the most sanity building task there is but whatever works.

Is the lack of ability for atheists like myself to communicate with the religious here because we are not addressing the basic methods of thinking or that we are in fact doing this and the religious are so deeply, either naturally or by indoctrination, in a different mental structure?
Mental maladies are generally result of atheism or the influence of Satan upon the mind of nonbelievers - this is why mental illness is an epidemic in pagan societies which reject God, and become addicted to drugs to attempt to be free their mental maladies rather than words of God - in Godly societies there is not epidemic of demonic school shooters that pagan societies have.

Best way to prevent mental attack would be for unbelievers to study Koran or Sunna, and to not think impure thoughts such as lust, greed, envy which lead mind to be influenced by Satan
 
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Mental maladies are generally result of atheism or the influence of Satan upon the mind of nonbelievers - this is why mental illness is an epidemic in pagan societies which reject God, and become addicted to drugs to attempt to be free their mental maladies rather than words of God - in Godly societies there is not epidemic of demonic school shooters that pagan societies have.

Best way to prevent mental attack would be for unbelievers to study Koran or Sunna, and to not think impure thoughts such as lust, greed, envy which lead mind to be influenced by Satan

Troll on.
 
First of all, one should know that Islam considers all diseases including psychiatric illness as trials and tests from Allah. So, when any disease befalls a Muslim, it can be an expiation for his/her sins.

The Islamic view of mental illness - Islam web - English

On the other hand, the psychiatric diseases like any other diseases should be treated. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: “Indeed, when Allah created the disease, He created its cure”. [Ahmad]

The best remedy for such disease is in reciting the Qur'an. Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We send down from the Qur'ân that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe (in Islâmic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.}[17:82].

Also, the greediness then keenness of people to get as much of the Duniya (world) comfort as they can, just to please themselves and satisfy desires, is a very important cause.
 
First of all, one should know that Islam considers all diseases including psychiatric illness as trials and tests from Allah. So, when any disease befalls a Muslim, it can be an expiation for his/her sins.

The Islamic view of mental illness - Islam web - English

On the other hand, the psychiatric diseases like any other diseases should be treated. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: “Indeed, when Allah created the disease, He created its cure”. [Ahmad]

The best remedy for such disease is in reciting the Qur'an. Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We send down from the Qur'ân that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe (in Islâmic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.}[17:82].

Also, the greediness then keenness of people to get as much of the Duniya (world) comfort as they can, just to please themselves and satisfy desires, is a very important cause.

Nonsense. Are you saying that Islamic suicide bombers are sane?
 
First of all, one should know that Islam considers all diseases including psychiatric illness as trials and tests from Allah. So, when any disease befalls a Muslim, it can be an expiation for his/her sins.

The Islamic view of mental illness - Islam web - English

On the other hand, the psychiatric diseases like any other diseases should be treated. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: “Indeed, when Allah created the disease, He created its cure”. [Ahmad]

The best remedy for such disease is in reciting the Qur'an. Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {And We send down from the Qur'ân that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe (in Islâmic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.}[17:82].

Also, the greediness then keenness of people to get as much of the Duniya (world) comfort as they can, just to please themselves and satisfy desires, is a very important cause.

When you think that the thread has managed to be dragged out of the 100% demonstrated by the wriggling of the God Squad a prize sepcimin appears.

Exactly what I am talking about.
 
Does faith cause insanity, or do the insane lean on the ultimate healer for comfort?
 
[continue]

To list a few here;
When we see videos of UFO made by some nobodies, we won't take them as factual. If however it is announced by NASA and broadcast by CNN, we will take it as factual. This is because through this human witnessing process, we examine the credibility of the author (instead of examining the proof or evidence) to determine a fact or truth.

We all know for a fact that black holes exists. However the vast majority of humans don't have the evidence themselves. The credibility of our scientists (as witnesses) make us to determine that the existence of black holes is factual.

Religion is about the same route, but for us humans to reach a possible truth about the future. It is an access of the future indirectly. The route works with the same set of key factors. The witnesses of God wrote about their encounters and understanding, preach the writings for the contents to reach all other humans, and for humans to believe it as factual or not. Humans can also examine the credibility of the authors and contents if you would apply the same standard as how you examine the books of history.

Of course there is a prerequisite for employing such a human witnessing process. The prerequisite is that the God involved has a good reason to hide behind that he won't be able to address all mankind directly that the next most effective way of message conveying, which is the process of human witnessing, thus has to be employed.

So other than examining the credibility of authors and writings by applying the same standard of how you examining human history, you can also question the reason why God has to hide behind.

In a nutshell, whether you consider the authors liars or not, this is the only possible way for humans (who are incapable of accessing both the past and future directly) to reach a truth possibly lying ahead!

Lots of words not much meaning.

We look at evieence and make judgments about it's credibility. Yeah? So?

Some evidence we assing a high level of confidence to. Such as the fact that the Bible has been around for a long time, that it was around in zero AD. Yeah? So? It was still full of drivel.
 
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