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Faith and madness, am I too harsh?

Our Watchtower today was about this very subject...it gives a good explanation as to what the spiritual man versus the physical man pertains to...

What Does It Mean to Be a Spiritual Person?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018286
 
Did you watch the video before puting it up?

Have you eveer watched the video?[5]

Why did you put up a video that makes it very clear that the argument is rubbish? Especially as, if it has this ongoing career then you will have much better (for you) videos out there. You know it your argument is drivel. You, at some level understand this as is made plian by your evaisions.
I am not responsible for your limitations as a reader or viewer of visual arts. If you don't understand the aim of such a video or why I posted it, that's your problem, not mine.
Please cease and desist in these drivel posts of yours for Pete's sake!
(Now I suppose you'll ask me who Pete is! ;))
 
I am not responsible for your limitations as a reader or viewer of visual arts. If you don't understand the aim of such a video or why I posted it, that's your problem, not mine.
Please cease and desist in these drivel posts of yours for Pete's sake!
(Now I suppose you'll ask me who Pete is! ;))

Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
I will continue untill you answer plainly.

Did you watch the video before puting it up?

Have you eveer watched the video?[6]

Why did you put up a video that makes it very clear that the argument is rubbish? Especially as, if it has this ongoing career then you will have much better (for you) videos out there. You know it your argument is drivel. You, at some level understand this as is made plian by your evaisions.
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
I will continue untill you answer plainly.

Did you watch the video before puting it up?

Have you eveer watched the video?[6]

Why did you put up a video that makes it very clear that the argument is rubbish? Especially as, if it has this ongoing career then you will have much better (for you) videos out there. You know it your argument is drivel. You, at some level understand this as is made plian by your evaisions.
Of course I watched all three videos. CrashCourse videos are clever fun. Did you watch any of the videos?
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
I will continue untill you answer plainly.

Did you watch the video before puting it up?

Have you eveer watched the video?[6]

Why did you put up a video that makes it very clear that the argument is rubbish? Especially as, if it has this ongoing career then you will have much better (for you) videos out there. You know it your argument is drivel. You, at some level understand this as is made plian by your evaisions.

Of course I watched all three videos. CrashCourse videos are clever fun. Did you watch any of the videos?

The intelligent design video certainly didn't support intelligent design.
 
The intelligent design video certainly didn't support intelligent design.
What is it with you guys? These videos are not meant to support anything. They're humorous introductions to an issue in philosophy.
 
What is it with you guys? These videos are not meant to support anything. They're humorous introductions to an issue in philosophy.

Yes, an issue that undermines everything you have posted about god and spirit. You think you have a final philosophical answer which philosophy itself is incapable of.
 
Yes, an issue that undermines everything you have posted about god and spirit. You think you have a final philosophical answer which philosophy itself is incapable of.
You can't even view a ten-minute video presentation without grinding your axe. Go chop some wood. ;)

Namaste.
 
You're speaking about things you don't understand. I remember the day I received the Spirit. Haven't been the same since.

I'm happy for you. Honestly.
 
You can't even view a ten-minute video presentation without grinding your axe. Go chop some wood. ;)

Namaste.

You can't present videos without shooting yourself in the foot.
 
Yes, an issue that undermines everything you have posted about god and spirit. You think you have a final philosophical answer which philosophy itself is incapable of.
What is it with you guys? These videos are not meant to support anything. They're humorous introductions to an issue in philosophy.
You can't even view a ten-minute video presentation without grinding your axe. Go chop some wood.
You can't present videos without shooting yourself in the foot.

You and Tim the plumber attempt to double down on your lack of understanding and misrepresentation of both a humorous ten-minute video presenting a philosophical issue and on the meaning of the word "issue," both. It's just ridiculous. But it's a matter of record, thank God.

Namaste.
 
For devildabid and Tim the plumber with affection
[drivel deleted]
[desperation deleted]


Robert Emmet Barron (born November 19, 1959) is an American prelate of the Catholic Church, author, theologian and evangelist, known for his Word on Fire ministry. He has served as an auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles since 8 September 2015. Previously, he served as Rector of Mundelein Seminary in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Barron_(bishop)
 
Exacttly that. Obviously I do know more than that number. I know of more than 1/all of the atoms in the universe about the universe. I know of more of the atoms than 1/all of them. I know lots of other things as well.

You seem to be conflating atoms in the universe with the total number of facts that can be known. The latter is very much greater than the former--indeed, the latter is probably infinite. I think that's probably demonstrable, but the demonstration I have in mind is a bit pedantic. I'll post it if you want, but I think it doesn't really get to the point. Usually when we speak of knowledge we speak of knowing facts that are actually worth knowing, and probably most of the facts that might be known are worthless.

I tend to think that Socrates is probably going to have the last laugh on all of us: human knowledge and wisdom is worth very much less than we usually take them to be worth. I have two master's degrees (one MA and one MS) and a PhD, and I'm continually struck by how very little I know, and how likely it is that what I take myself to know is probably wrong, or only approximately correct. I suspect that's what your interlocutor was trying to impress; I'm afraid I cannot be sure, since I didn't observe the exchange.

But anyway, why should it matter? I think from the perspective of the religious, people with what Peter Unger has called the "Scientiphical Metaphysic" (a term he intended to have roots in both science and philosophy) have constructed what they insist is a complete model of the universe, and often argue as if that model is in principle capable of explaining everything. Not that such explanations are as yet available, but that, with a little luck, they will be eventually, and under this model our representations of the whole universe and every last particle in it will fit together like the pieces of a fantastically large jigsaw. Human reason will have been harmonized utterly with reality, which in turn will be shown to be consistent with our reasoning. And in light of that picture--of the very fact of the existence of that triumphant picture--religions should be abandoned as outmoded and outdated pictures that were attempts at the very same project under which this newer better model was constructed. But religious people see that whole argument as flawed at every step starting with the premises, and while some of them certainly challenge it for insane reasons, some of them challenge it for reasons that strike me as fairly sane.

But that whole argument is false because of course not knowing everything does not mean "thus God!!". I don't know is the start point of good thinking.

Again, I'm sure some religious people do try to make that argument (i.e. we don't know, therefore God!). But astute religious people recognize as keenly as you that such an argument is just nonsense. People who are religious have other reasons for being religious. I myself have, and they're not reasons I can really share with anyone. When I point out how little we know, it's not to say that this by itself constitutes proof of God. Rather, it's to show that the attack on religion as sketched above simply cannot succeed. The claims made for how certain is the Scientiphical Metaphysic, and actually how certain it is, are very far apart. Other aspects of the attack are fatally flawed, as far as I can see.

As to those other reasons for being religious, they have apparently little to do with upbringing in the sense of having been brainwashed by fundamentalist parents. Again, some people are in that situation, but most religious people are not. Their upbringing may have shown them something that another kind of upbringing would not have done, but that's rather different from brainwashing. For myself, I think actually very few people in contemporary western culture are capable of being genuinely religious, and if you're not one of those, you shouldn't be. Attempts to convert others are, in this day and age, not only stupid, but at least slightly evil.

I believe us atheists try to keep it straight, I would appreciate anywhere I have not done so cited so i can inprove. The difficulty of chacing the religious areound their arguments is that you are often forced to used their language which, as you say shifts from moment to moment.

I'm sure it seems that way to you. It probably seems just the reverse to a religious person.
 
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That's your twisted spin that claims I view everyone else as stupid.

FYI, the poster I responded to was pushing unsupported theories in order to try to discredit the historical Gospels. He had no evidence to support his theories. There was no critical thinking behind that.

On the other hand, I have spent forty+ years investigating the historical basis for the independent Gospel accounts and various epistles, and I have found them solid. That's what critical thinking does - examines the evidence in depth.

I doubt you've done that depth and level of investigation, which is why you're a liberal.

And, if you think you have some solid evidence that demolishes the resurrection, then present your evidence. But do your homework before you do so you're not embarrassed.

There is no legitimate Biblical scholar alive today who thinks the "historical Bibles" are historically accurate. I bet your 40 years of research was in a very narrow biased set of literature preaching to the true believers like yourself.

Try some real books.

misquoting jesus.webphowjesus.webpforged.webporthodox.webp

From the Amazon summary of "Forged":

Bart D. Ehrman, the New York Times bestselling author of Jesus, Interrupted and God’s Problem reveals which books in the Bible’s New Testament were not passed down by Jesus’s disciples, but were instead forged by other hands—and why this centuries-hidden scandal is far more significant than many scholars are willing to admit. A controversial work of historical reporting in the tradition of Elaine Pagels, Marcus Borg, and John Dominic Crossan, Ehrman’s Forged delivers a stunning explication of one of the most substantial—yet least discussed—problems confronting the world of biblical scholarship.

But that's OK. You go back to watching your Fox News and reading your preacher's pamphlets. I don't want to upset your critical and open mind.
 
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From the description of "How Jesus Became God":

The claim at the heart of the Christian faith is that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, God. But this is not what the original disciples believed during Jesus’s lifetime—and it is not what Jesus claimed about himself. How Jesus Became God tells the story of an idea that shaped Christianity, and of the evolution of a belief that looked very different in the fourth century than it did in the first.

A master explainer of Christian history, texts, and traditions, Ehrman reveals how an apocalyptic prophet from the backwaters of rural Galilee crucified for crimes against the state came to be thought of as equal with the one God Almighty, Creator of all things. But how did he move from being a Jewish prophet to being God? In a book that took eight years to research and write, Ehrman sketches Jesus’s transformation from a human prophet to the Son of God exalted to divine status at his resurrection. Only when some of Jesus’s followers had visions of him after his death—alive again—did anyone come to think that he, the prophet from Galilee, had become God. And what they meant by that was not at all what people mean today.
 
There is no legitimate Biblical scholar alive today who thinks the "historical Bibles" are historically accurate.

Hogwash, and I seriously doubt you've taken a poll.

I bet your 40 years of research was in a very narrow biased set of literature preaching to the true believers like yourself.

Try some real books.

But that's OK. You go back to watching your Fox News and reading your preacher's pamphlets. I don't want to upset your critical and open mind.

You need to expand your reading list to something other than liberal drivel.
 
Hogwash, and I seriously doubt you've taken a poll.



You need to expand your reading list to something other than liberal drivel.

OK. Have you ever expanded your reading list to something other than fundamentalist drivel?

If you have, then answer me this, from your 40+ years of studying the topic: Jesus' disciples were mostly illiterate, and spoke Aramaic. There is no evidence any of them spoke Greek. And yet the Gospels were written down in Greek.

How did that happen?
 
OK. Have you ever expanded your reading list to something other than fundamentalist drivel?

If you have, then answer me this, from your 40+ years of studying the topic: Jesus' disciples were mostly illiterate, and spoke Aramaic. There is no evidence any of them spoke Greek. And yet the Gospels were written down in Greek.

How did that happen?

I've read liberal Bible criticisms for many years, and, generally speaking, it doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.

As for Jesus' disciples not speaking Greek, how do you really know which languages they knew? You don't know.

Matthew was a tax collector, so he arguably knew Greek. In addition, there's scholars who believe Matthew was originally written in either Aramaic or Hebrew, based on the writings of Papias.

What we do know is that the early church fathers confirmed that traditional Gospel authorships of Matthew, Mark (Peter), Luke, and John.

In addition, scores of scholars date the entire New Testament to the 1st century, rather than the 2nd century as your revisionist liberal critics contend.

Have you read anything except liberal theological drivel?
 
OK. Have you ever expanded your reading list to something other than fundamentalist drivel?

If you have, then answer me this, from your 40+ years of studying the topic: Jesus' disciples were mostly illiterate, and spoke Aramaic. There is no evidence any of them spoke Greek. And yet the Gospels were written down in Greek.

How did that happen?

Not true...with the exception of the book of Matthew, which was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek, all the other 26 books were written in the common Greek, Koine, the international language of the day...
 
Not true...with the exception of the book of Matthew, which was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek, all the other 26 books were written in the common Greek, Koine, the international language of the day...

Wait... how is that different than what I said?
 
Of course I watched all three videos. CrashCourse videos are clever fun. Did you watch any of the videos?

I watched the first.

Given it shows why the argument is 100% wrong why did you post it?
 
I watched the first.

Given it shows why the argument is 100% wrong why did you post it?
I've answered this stupid question of yours three times. Why do you keep asking it?
The video shows no such thing.
No CrashCourse video shows any such thing.
I posted it for the viewing pleasure and information of those who were not familiar with the arguments ataraxia and I had referenced.
I did not post them for someone who doesn't recognize the purpose of videos like these.
I did not post them for unpleasant contrarians to waste my time with drivel about these videos.

Are we done now?

Namaste.
 
You seem to be conflating atoms in the universe with the total number of facts that can be known. The latter is very much greater than the former--indeed, the latter is probably infinite. I think that's probably demonstrable, but the demonstration I have in mind is a bit pedantic. I'll post it if you want, but I think it doesn't really get to the point. Usually when we speak of knowledge we speak of knowing facts that are actually worth knowing, and probably most of the facts that might be known are worthless.

I tend to think that Socrates is probably going to have the last laugh on all of us: human knowledge and wisdom is worth very much less than we usually take them to be worth. I have two master's degrees (one MA and one MS) and a PhD, and I'm continually struck by how very little I know, and how likely it is that what I take myself to know is probably wrong, or only approximately correct. I suspect that's what your interlocutor was trying to impress; I'm afraid I cannot be sure, since I didn't observe the exchange.

But anyway, why should it matter? I think from the perspective of the religious, people with what Peter Unger has called the "Scientiphical Metaphysic" (a term he intended to have roots in both science and philosophy) have constructed what they insist is a complete model of the universe, and often argue as if that model is in principle capable of explaining everything. Not that such explanations are as yet available, but that, with a little luck, they will be eventually, and under this model our representations of the whole universe and every last particle in it will fit together like the pieces of a fantastically large jigsaw. Human reason will have been harmonized utterly with reality, which in turn will be shown to be consistent with our reasoning. And in light of that picture--of the very fact of the existence of that triumphant picture--religions should be abandoned as outmoded and outdated pictures that were attempts at the very same project under which this newer better model was constructed. But religious people see that whole argument as flawed at every step starting with the premises, and while some of them certainly challenge it for insane reasons, some of them challenge it for reasons that strike me as fairly sane.



Again, I'm sure some religious people do try to make that argument (i.e. we don't know, therefore God!). But astute religious people recognize as keenly as you that such an argument is just nonsense. People who are religious have other reasons for being religious. I myself have, and they're not reasons I can really share with anyone. When I point out how little we know, it's not to say that this by itself constitutes proof of God. Rather, it's to show that the attack on religion as sketched above simply cannot succeed. The claims made for how certain is the Scientiphical Metaphysic, and actually how certain it is, are very far apart. Other aspects of the attack are fatally flawed, as far as I can see.

As to those other reasons for being religious, they have apparently little to do with upbringing in the sense of having been brainwashed by fundamentalist parents. Again, some people are in that situation, but most religious people are not. Their upbringing may have shown them something that another kind of upbringing would not have done, but that's rather different from brainwashing. For myself, I think actually very few people in contemporary western culture are capable of being genuinely religious, and if you're not one of those, you shouldn't be. Attempts to convert others are, in this day and age, not only stupid, but at least slightly evil.



I'm sure it seems that way to you. It probably seems just the reverse to a religious person.

What are your degrees and pHd in?
 
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