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DEMOCRACY and REPUBLIC[W:172]

The constitution does not say anything about any particular "TRUE FORM" so your claim is ridiculous and not based on the Constitution.
since the senate is longer appointed by the state legislatures, then the goverment is not in the true form the founders stated in article 4 section 4
 
since the senate is longer appointed by the state legislatures, then the goverment is not in the true form the founders stated in article 4 section 4

You do realize that prior to the XVII Amendment, there were states that permitted the population at large to choose the Senators? Ultimately though, at the end of the day the XVII Amendment IS AN AMENDMENT. Even if this 'republican' meme that you're stressing here were true, its not, the XVII Amendment CHANGES that....
 
You do realize that prior to the XVII Amendment, there were states that permitted the population at large to choose the Senators? Ultimately though, at the end of the day the XVII Amendment IS AN AMENDMENT. Even if this 'republican' meme that you're stressing here were true, its not, the XVII Amendment CHANGES that....

your are correct, starting about the mid 1870's, states started to directly elect senators and it was unconstitutional, because the constitution spells out how senators are chosen, which is what the states of the compact agreed to when they ratified the constitution.

the issue was a referendum [Oregon system], however under republican forms of government, that is illegal, .............referendums are direct democracy.

according to "view of the constitution" printed in 1829, by Washington's AG for the state of PA, all states must be a republican form, if the people alter or abolish their republican form, they can no longer be a state in the union, and must..................leave said union.

however no state was forced out by changing its form, as it should have been done,........ referendums again are direct democracy, and the founders hated both of them.


a republican form, is mixed government [ federalist 40] meaning how government is structured, for our government officials to be elected.......this keeps direct power divided, and not concentrated only in 1 set of hands, which will lead to tyranny.

by the 17th, it changed our form of government to a more democratic form of government, which they founders did not want, and allowed government to expand and usurp state powers.


William Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States 295--304, 305--7 1829 (2d ed.)

The Union is an association of the people of republics; its preservation is calculated to depend on the preservation of those republics. The people of each pledge themselves to preserve that form of government in all. Thus each becomes responsible to the rest, that no other form of government shall prevail in it, and all are bound to preserve it in every one.

But the mere compact, without the power to enforce it, would be of little value. Now this power can be no where so properly lodged, as in the Union itself. Hence, the term guarantee, indicates that the United States are authorized to oppose, and if possible, prevent every state in the Union from relinquishing the republican form of government, and as auxiliary means, they are expressly authorized and required to employ their force on the application of the constituted authorities of each state, "to repress domestic violence." If a faction should attempt to subvert the government of a state for the purpose of destroying its republican form, the paternal power of the Union could thus be called forth to subdue it.

Yet it is not to be understood, that its interposition would be justifiable, if the people of a state should determine to retire from the Union, whether they adopted another or retained the same form of government, or if they should, with the express intention of seceding, expunge the representative system from their code, and thereby incapacitate themselves from concurring according to the mode now prescribed, in the choice of certain public officers of the United States.

The principle of representation, although certainly the wisest and best, is not essential to the being of a republic, but to continue a member of the Union, it must be preserved, and therefore the guarantee must be so construed. It depends on the state itself to retain or abolish the principle of representation, because it depends on itself whether it will continue a member of the Union. To deny this right would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed.
 
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it means clearly the u.s. was not created as a democracy!

It also was created without a women's right to vote and legal slavery. So what are you trying to prove? That we have learned something about freedom in these 238 years? The Constitution was a compromise that brilliantly allowed for advancements in human understanding so it could be kept current. Tell me what world govt. has kept the same exact laws for over 200 years?
 
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It also was created without a women's right to vote and legal slavery. So what are you trying to prove? That we have learned something about freedom in these 238 years?

voting was not a right to anyone .....whites, also had no privilege to vote, ...one finds this by reading early American court cases, of people challenging the power to vote.

it sought to end importation of slavery by 1808, the founders believed slavery would end after their deaths.

prove.....that the u.s. had a mixed government on purpose to prevent concentration of power, which is dangerous, so they divided power by having a republican form of government.

by the 17th, this moved the u.s. closer to democracy, which the founders hated, because it is a form of government which does not protect individual rights, but focuses on collective rights.

by the 17th.... it removed the states voice in our federal government, which was a check on federal power, and it made the federal government unbalanced.

since there is no longer a check and balance of the federal government, it has expanded, usurped powers, and violated rights of the people.
 
voting was not a right to anyone .....whites, also had no privilege to vote, ...one finds this by reading early American court cases, of people challenging the power to vote.

it sought to end importation of slavery by 1808, the founders believed slavery would end after their deaths.

prove.....that the u.s. had a mixed government on purpose to prevent concentration of power, which is dangerous, so they divided power by having a republican form of government.

by the 17th, this moved the u.s. closer to democracy, which the founders hated, because it is a form of government which does not protect individual rights, but focuses on collective rights.

by the 17th.... it removed the states voice in our federal government, which was a check on federal power, and it made the federal government unbalanced.

since there is no longer a check and balance of the federal government, it has expanded, usurped powers, and violated rights of the people.

All you are really saying is that some of the founders had some question about a populace's ability to choose representatives to govern because it had never been really attempted. Also because the States had been used to governing themselves independently, they were given more responsibility as a way to entice them to join the union.
These are the facts of the era, tell me what bearing do they now have our or situation now? You do realize that that is what matters, the founders are long dead and second guessing what they might have envisioned for the future is an exercise in futility.
What is certain is that we are closer to the universal freedoms enshrined in the Constitution than we ever were in the 18th century.
 
The problem with the XVII though is to remove the Senators from a connection with the state they're from. Its bad enough that issues of Federalism are decided by the Supreme Court. Paraphrasing Calhoun, how do you think the cases will go when the Federal government is the sole arbiter of its own powers. Of course, the check on this is the fact that the Senator, in the design supposed to be appointed in connection with the Senate, should at least have some interest in appointing Supreme Court justices that will zealously guard the powers vested in states.

Frankly, I see the XVII Amendment as being a small portion of a larger problem.
 
The problem with the XVII though is to remove the Senators from a connection with the state they're from. Its bad enough that issues of Federalism are decided by the Supreme Court. Paraphrasing Calhoun, how do you think the cases will go when the Federal government is the sole arbiter of its own powers. Of course, the check on this is the fact that the Senator, in the design supposed to be appointed in connection with the Senate, should at least have some interest in appointing Supreme Court justices that will zealously guard the powers vested in states.

Frankly, I see the XVII Amendment as being a small portion of a larger problem.

What is so inherently good about giving more power to the States?
 
All you are really saying is that some of the founders had some question about a populace's ability to choose representatives to govern because it had never been really attempted. Also because the States had been used to governing themselves independently, they were given more responsibility as a way to entice them to join the union.
These are the facts of the era, tell me what bearing do they now have our or situation now? You do realize that that is what matters, the founders are long dead and second guessing what they might have envisioned for the future is an exercise in futility.

because under mixed government, power is divided, this prevents a power concentration, when power is concentrated into 1 entity, ...that 1 entity will abuse the power it has.

1)a king becomes a dictator

2)a aristocracy/ oligarchy, becomes the feudal lords of olde, and the people are reduced to only serfs

3)democracy becomes mob rule

so the founders incorporated all 3 of these types of government into our federal constitution, so that there is no concentration of power of 1, and each type of government is pitted against the other[separation of powers], to prevent a power concentration and tyranny.

the house is the interest of the people, the senate the interest of the states, and the president represents the union as a whole, so each part of our nation gets equal representation.

for a legislative bill to pass congress and be signed by the president, all 3 must work together in the interest of each one.

the 17th has unbalanced the government and removed a check on federal power, and allowed the government to usurp state powers, and violate peoples rights.
 
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What is so inherently good about giving more power to the States?

"In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself." And the Federal government doesn't and I have 17+ trillion reasons why.
 
reality = not following the constitution.

The people who are entrusted with making sure government is following the Constitution disagree with your extremist interpretation.

Hamilton in his Report on Manufacturers also disagrees with your interpretation of general welfare:

Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures

5 Dec. 1791Papers 10:302--4
A Question has been made concerning the Constitutional right of the Government of the United States to apply this species of encouragement, but there is certainly no good foundation for such a question. The National Legislature has express authority "To lay and Collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the Common defence and general welfare" with no other qualifications than that "all duties, imposts and excises, shall be uniform throughout the United states, that no capitation or other direct tax shall be laid unless in proportion to numbers ascertained by a census or enumeration taken on the principles prescribed in the Constitution, and that "no tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state." These three qualifications excepted, the power to raise money is plenary, and indefinite; and the objects to which it may be appropriated are no less comprehensive, than the payment of the public debts and the providing for the common defence and "general Welfare." The terms "general Welfare" were doubtless intended to signify more than was expressed or imported in those which Preceded; otherwise numerous exigencies incident to the affairs of a Nation would have been left without a provision. The phrase is as comprehensive as any that could have been used; because it was not fit that the constitutional authority of the Union, to appropriate its revenues shou'd have been restricted within narrower limits than the "General Welfare" and because this necessarily embraces a vast variety of particulars, which are susceptible neither of specification nor of definition.

It is therefore of necessity left to the discretion of the National Legislature, to pronounce, upon the objects, which concern the general Welfare, and for which under that description, an appropriation of money is requisite and proper. And there seems to be no room for a doubt that whatever concerns the general Interests of learning of Agriculture of Manufactures and of Commerce are within the sphere of the national Councils as far as regards an application of Money.

The only qualification of the generallity of the Phrase in question, which seems to be admissible, is this--That the object to which an appropriation of money is to be made be General and not local; its operation extending in fact, or by possibility, throughout the Union, and not being confined to a particular spot.

No objection ought to arise to this construction from a supposition that it would imply a power to do whatever else should appear to Congress conducive to the General Welfare. A power to appropriate money with this latitude which is granted too in express terms would not carry a power to do any other thing, not authorised in the constitution, either expressly or by fair implication.

I believe he qualifies as a Founder.
 
since the senate is longer appointed by the state legislatures, then the goverment is not in the true form the founders stated in article 4 section 4

That section only specifies a republican form of government which is what we have today. There is no nonsense or BS in there about any "true form" or other crap that you made up.
 
The people who are entrusted with making sure government is following the Constitution disagree with your extremist interpretation.

Hamilton in his Report on Manufacturers also disagrees with your interpretation of general welfare:



I believe he qualifies as a Founder.

Hamilton states government is limited...
 
That section only specifies a republican form of government which is what we have today. There is no nonsense or BS in there about any "true form" or other crap that you made up.


is the senate appointed by state legislatures?...no, then government is not in the republican form of the founders.
 
"In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself." And the Federal government doesn't and I have 17+ trillion reasons why.

Your complaints about the Federal debt have nothing to do with why States need more power. It is inherently inefficient to legislate State by State. The States were only given all that power to get them to join the union anyway. Once they were in much of that power was superfluous or even destructive. The Civil War proved that.
 
is the senate appointed by state legislatures?...no, then government is not in the republican form of the founders.

It is a republican form of government and that is all the Constitution mandates. It does not matter if changes were made to the way things were done in the 1700's as those changes were authorized by the very mechanism (Article V) given to us by those same Founders in the Constitution. They never said we could not alter certain procedures or details - only that we had to have a republican form of government and that is what we have.

And therein lies your fundamental error Herr Barkmann. For some reason - and I suspect it is deeply steeped in far right ideology - you have taken into your head that there is only one strain of what is a republican form of government and if that is not exactly the same as what was exercised int he 1700's then it is a violation of the Constitution. Sadly for you, the Constitution does not mandate that. Sadly for you, the Constitution does not prevent changes in procedures and details.

Again - you lose.
 
Of course government is limited. Is this statement from you suppose to be some sort of huge revelation?

hay, i going to cut you some slack for your foolishness.

you went out and got the report on manufacturers from Hamilton, because you probability listen to someone tell you something stupid, however in submitting it to me, its very clear you never read it.

if you had...... you would not have produced it by what Hamilton says in it about the government not having authority to do whatever it wants, using the general welfare.

again, you should have read it.
 
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It is a republican form of government and that is all the Constitution mandates. It does not matter if changes were made to the way things were done in the 1700's as those changes were authorized by the very mechanism (Article V) given to us by those same Founders in the Constitution. They never said we could not alter certain procedures or details - only that we had to have a republican form of government and that is what we have.

And therein lies your fundamental error Herr Barkmann. For some reason - and I suspect it is deeply steeped in far right ideology - you have taken into your head that there is only one strain of what is a republican form of government and if that is not exactly the same as what was exercised int he 1700's then it is a violation of the Constitution. Sadly for you, the Constitution does not mandate that. Sadly for you, the Constitution does not prevent changes in procedures and details.

Again - you lose.

again you don't read..i stated to you clearly, is the government a republican form of government which the founders talked about in the constitution ...no.

because the structure of power is different then it was in their day, state legislatures, have no voice in the federal government anymore
 
hay, i going to cut you some slack for your foolishness.

you went out and got the report on manufacturers from Hamilton, because you probability listen to someone tell you something stupid, however in submitting it to me, its very clear you never read it.

if you had...... you would not have produced it by what Hamilton says in it about the government not having authority to do whatever it wants, using the general welfare.

again, you should have read it.

What a silly post and a really dumb thing to say.

Nobody ever said that Hamilton took the position that the general welfare power was unlimited. And that includes me.

Why do you say such silly nonsensical things and then attribute them to me? :doh:roll:
 
again you don't read..i stated to you clearly, is the government a republican form of government which the founders talked about in the constitution ...no.

because the structure of power is different then it was in their day, state legislatures, have no voice in the federal government anymore

Your view is irrelevant to the sole question before us: does the USA have a republican form of government? The answer is clearly YES. You have no argument and no case.
 
What a silly post and a really dumb thing to say.

Nobody ever said that Hamilton took the position that the general welfare power was unlimited. And that includes me.

Why do you say such silly nonsensical things and then attribute them to me? :doh:roll:

hay, as a libertarian and someone who believes in the constitution, do you not think i have been confronted with this report before?......of coarse i have!


"No objection ought to arise to this construction from a supposition that it would imply a power to do whatever else should appear to Congress conducive to the General Welfare. A power to appropriate money with this latitude which is granted too in express terms would not carry a power to do any other thing, not authorized in the constitution, either expressly or by fair implication?"


 
Your view is irrelevant to the sole question before us: does the USA have a republican form of government? The answer is clearly YES. You have no argument and no case.

wrong, that is not what i said..............again for you, "is the government a republican form of government which the founders talked about in the constitution ...no!

because the structure of power is different then it was in their day, state legislatures, have no voice in the federal government anymore.........and they don't........if they did.... they would not need to sue the government, they would have just stopped any bili in the senate they did not want passed.
 
hay, as a libertarian and someone who believes in the constitution, do you not think i have been confronted with this report before?......of coarse i have!


"No objection ought to arise to this construction from a supposition that it would imply a power to do whatever else should appear to Congress conducive to the General Welfare. A power to appropriate money with this latitude which is granted too in express terms would not carry a power to do any other thing, not authorized in the constitution, either expressly or by fair implication?"




Its too bad for you the US Supreme Court - the people entrusted and empowered to actually interpret the Constitution and the law disagree with you.
 
wrong, that is not what i said..............again for you, "is the government a republican form of government which the founders talked about in the constitution ...no!

because the structure of power is different then it was in their day, state legislatures, have no voice in the federal government anymore.........and they don't........if they did.... they would not need to sue the government, they would have just stopped any bili in the senate they did not want passed.

But that is the point Herr Barkmann: the Founders never specified any details of form for this republican government. All they mandated was a republican form and at the same time allowed an amendment process to change the mechanisms and details of government like the 17th did.

So again you have no case.
 
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