DEMOCRACY and REPUBLIC[W:172]

[Master PO]

why is that? I have repeatedly told you that the opinion of one person does not change the document given to the nation. That is a hard cold fact of history.

Where are your definitions of democracy and republic?

oh, again you state wikipedia was your veritable source..........and when i use it, you say screw mixed government, from Wikipedia.

 

[haymarket]

[POWER IS DIVIDED BETWEEN THE PEOPLE AND THEIR REPRESENTATIVES, MEANING THE LEGISLATURE OF STATES............THIS MAKES IT REPUBLICAN.

UNDER DEMOCRACY THE POWER IS HELD BY ONLY BY THE PEOPLE, THRU THEIR REPRESENTATIVES]






federalist 62 and 63 as stated to you before!



An ELECTIVE DESPOTISM was not the government we fought for; but one which should not only be founded on free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among several bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits, without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.

Are you alleging that your synopisis of a personal statement of Madison is a definition of DEMOCRACY and REPUBLIC?

again power is divided between the people and the representatives they elect..........this makes it republican.................2 entities hold power

democracy..power is held directly by the people, thru their representatives they elect...............this make it democratic..............................1 entity holds power

 

[haymarket]

oh, again you state wikipedia was your veritable source..........and when i use it, you say screw mixed government, from Wikipedia.

The issue is DEMOCRACY and REPUBLIC.

 

[Master PO]

The issue is DEMOCRACY and REPUBLIC.

A Classical Republic, (Greek: πολιτεια; Latin: respublica) is a "mixed constitutional government". This definition of the form of a republic existed from Classical Antiquity to the French Revolutionary period. Since that time, the term republic has been confused with the term democracy.

A republic, in the classical form, is a type of government that is made up of a mixture of elements from three other types of government: monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy. There is the Spartan model, which is a tripartite form of government which is a combination of kings, gerousia (aristocracy) and the assembly of all the males (democratic body). There is the Roman model that has a civilian head, and an aristocratic body which is the Senate and smaller assemblies representing the citizens. A republic is marked by a bicameral legislative body (the upper house being aristocratic) and by a written constitution that marks out the duties and responsibilities of the different bodies.

The classical republic or 'mixed government' is a product of the cultural mindset of the Indo-European races of trifunctionality1 and by and large, generated by citizen/soldier/farmer societies. It was first developed by the Doric Greeks on the island of Crete. 11 It is a by-product of the special Doric Cretan mentality of syncretism (which "Crete" forms the central portion of the word).62 "What the Dorians endeavoured to obtain in a state was good order, or cosmos, the regular combination of different elements." 58

 

[haymarket]

A Classical Republic, (Greek: πολιτεια; Latin: respublica) is a "mixed constitutional government". This definition of the form of a republic existed from Classical Antiquity to the French Revolutionary period. Since that time, the term republic has been confused with the term democracy.

A republic, in the classical form, is a type of government that is made up of a mixture of elements from three other types of government: monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy. There is the Spartan model, which is a tripartite form of government which is a combination of kings, gerousia (aristocracy) and the assembly of all the males (democratic body). There is the Roman model that has a civilian head, and an aristocratic body which is the Senate and smaller assemblies representing the citizens. A republic is marked by a bicameral legislative body (the upper house being aristocratic) and by a written constitution that marks out the duties and responsibilities of the different bodies.

The classical republic or 'mixed government' is a product of the cultural mindset of the Indo-European races of trifunctionality1 and by and large, generated by citizen/soldier/farmer societies. It was first developed by the Doric Greeks on the island of Crete. 11 It is a by-product of the special Doric Cretan mentality of syncretism (which "Crete" forms the central portion of the word).62 "What the Dorians endeavoured to obtain in a state was good order, or cosmos, the regular combination of different elements." 58

where are you getting this from?

 

[Master PO]

where are you getting this from?

the same place i gave a link for already!

 

[haymarket]

Here is your problem Barkmann...

from your OP

then it has been verified, according to haymarkket ,that Wikipedia is correct on mixed constitution, and the constitution itself says our government is republican, then a republican form of government is then a mixed government..........as confirmed by haymarket, , because of this support for Wikipedia.

Haymarket did not say a damn word about MIXED GOVERNMENT, let alone verify it.
Haymarket provided a definition of the word REPUBLIC and showed how it fit the USA to a tee.

to repeat again, if our government is republican by Madison's own words, and according to haymarket verification, a mixed government by Wikipedia of must be correct, and federalist 40 by Madison states our Constitution is a mixed constitution, ....then it is impossible the government of the founders to be a democracy, of democratic government.

Haymarket never verified the crap you just said.

Its easy to see how you find yourself digging a new basement underneath the bottom of the barrel with these absurd "if this is this then this must be this" gobbledygook nonsense.

This is part of your Mad Hatter in Wonderland excuse for logic. You figure that you will NOT provide a clear cut definition for Republic because it defeats your purpose so you attempt to sidetrack the discussion by making it about MIXED GOVERNMENT and since that includes elements of a republic, you then use that as your standard. Then you compound it with statements from an individual writing a personal essay about his opinions about government and act as if they are some defining authoritative source which determines what our government is. Which it is not.

And you end up in this crazy convoluted upside down mess.

Just provide a standard definition for REPUBLIC and anyone can see the USA fits that.

Case closed.

 

[Master PO]

What is a state

The Greeks defined differing governments by their dominant factor. Aristotle writes: "Now a constitution (Politeia) is the ordering of a state (Poleos) in respect of its various magistracies, and especially the magistracy that is supreme over all matters. For the government is everywhere supreme over the state and the constitution is the government. 3 Our customary designation for a monarchy that aims at the common advantage is 'kingship'; for a government of more than one yet only a few 'aristocracy', ...while when the multitude govern the state with a view to the common advantage, it is called by the name common to all the forms of constitution, 'constitutional government'. 4 Where a government has only a king, the dominant factor, it is called a monarchy. Where a government has only a few nobles ruling, the dominant factor, it is called an aristocracy." Where the people are the dominant factor it is called a democracy.

The Greek word for State is "Poleos". It denotes "society" in general. Aristotle writes "A collection of persons all alike does not constitute a state". 5 This Greek word, "Politeia" is then named for every government that includes numerous classes of people as citizens and a written law, a constitution, that defines and delegates rights and responsibilities of those classes. A republic is one that does not have a dominant factor".

Hence, the phrase "democratic republic" is an oxymoron. A democracy is when the people are dominant and a republic is mixed government wherein there is no dominant element. Therefore to say a "democratic republic" is an oxymoron. The confusion lies in that the word "republic" is synonymous with "constitution". For that reason, it is better to say "constitutional democracy" other than "democratic republic".

 

[Master PO]

Here is your problem Barkmann...

from your OP




Haymarket did not say a damn word about MIXED GOVERNMENT, let alone verify it.
Haymarket provided a definition of the word REPUBLIC and showed how it fit the USA to a tee.





Haymarket never verified the crap you just said.

Its easy to see how you find yourself digging a new basement underneath the bottom of the barrel with these absurd "if this is this then this must be this" gobbledygook nonsense.

wrong...you stated Wikipedia was a verifiable source...........since you make that claim.

then if i use Wikipedia..........then it has to be verifiable source .........to you also.

and it states a mixed government in a government of 3 elements....

stop looking for cover!

 

[haymarket]

wrong...you stated Wikipedia was a verifiable source...........since you make that claim.

then if i use Wikipedia..........then it has to be verifiable source .........to you also.

and it states a mixed government in a government of 3 elements....

stop looking for cover!

We were talking about if the USA was a REPUBLIC. I provided the Wikipedia definition and it was a verifiable source.

You used Wikipedia for a DIFFERENT FREAKIN TERM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What about that do you not understand?????????????? We were not discussing anything but what a REPUBLIC is and if the USA is one.

What about that seems to elude you?

You did not just attempt to change the goal posts - you attempted to change the sport in a new arena in a new city.

 

[Master PO]

We were talking about if the USA was a REPUBLIC. I provided the Wikipedia definition and it was a verifiable source.

You used Wikipedia for a DIFFERENT FREAKIN TERM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What about that do you not understand??????????????

You did not just attempt to change the goal posts - you attempted to change the sport in a new arena in a new city.

wrong........you use Wikipedia to state what a republic is..........and you say it verifiable.

i used Wikipedia to state what a mixed government is..........and you deny it..........why??????......it from the same source you used.....!

 

[haymarket]

What is a state.

I really don't give a crap since its NOT what we were talking about in the first place.

But your attempt to yet again move the goal posts to a new arena is clearly noted.

 

[haymarket]

wrong........you use Wikipedia to state what a republic is..........and you say it verifiable.

i used Wikipedia to state what a mixed government is..........and you deny it..........why??????......it from the same source you used.....!

Except that was not the issue.

The issue was since the Constitution mandates a republican form of governement, is the USA a republic.

The Constitution does NOT use the words MIXED GOVERNMENT nor does it promise it to the nation. You are attempting to fool people with a dishonest game of intellectual three card montie and that is fraud.

 

[Master PO]

federalist 48--An ELECTIVE DESPOTISM was not the government we fought for; but one which should not only be founded on free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among several bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits, without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.


Definition of ELECTIVE
1a : chosen or filled by popular election <an elective official>
b : of or relating to election
c : based on the right or principle of election


Despotism is a form of government in which a single entity rules with absolute power.


the founders state they did not fight a war, to create a government,of an elective despotism......................................a government of the people holding ALL absolute power

 

[Master PO]

except that was not the issue.

The issue was since the constitution mandates a republican form of governement, is the usa a republic.

The constitution does not use the words mixed government nor does it promise it to the nation. You are attempting to fool people with a dishonest game of intellectual three card montie and that is fraud.

oh!...........when why have you denied me the same source you used then.........?why?

 

[haymarket]

federalist 48--An ELECTIVE DESPOTISM was not the government we fought for; but one which should not only be founded on free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among several bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits, without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.


Definition of ELECTIVE
1a : chosen or filled by popular election <an elective official>
b : of or relating to election
c : based on the right or principle of election


Despotism is a form of government in which a single entity rules with absolute power.


the founders state they did not fight a war, to create a government,of an elective despotism......................................a government of the people holding ALL absolute power

Yet another attempt to move the goal posts to a different arena.

 

[haymarket]

oh!...........when why have you denied me the same source you used then.........?why?

MIXED GOVERNMENT was not the issue. That is why. Can you comprehend that?

The issue was since the constitution mandates a republican form of governement, is the usa a republic.

The constitution does not use the words mixed government nor does it promise it to the nation. You are attempting to fool people with a dishonest game of intellectual three card montie and that is fraud.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

What are your definitions of a REPUBLIC and of a DEMOCRACY?

In the former, the leaders must govern based on the constitution. In the latter, mob rule.

 

[Master PO]

THE U.S. OF THE FOUNDERS IS A REPUBLIC, WITH A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT, ARTICLE 4 SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION.

IT IS A MIXED GOVERNMENT, COMPOSED OF A MONARCHY, ARISTOCRACY AND A DEMOCRACY , WITH EACH BALANCED AGAINST THE OTHER.

POWER IS DIVIDED, BETWEEN THE STATES AND THE PEOPLE....TO PREVENT ALL POWER CONCENTRATED INTO ONE ENTITY WHICH WOULD CAUSE TYRANNY.


DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT LIKE THOSE USING DEMOCRACY IS WERE POWER IS CONCENTRATED ONLY INTO THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE, AND THEY RULE WITH ABSOLUTE POWER.


A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]

 

[haymarket]

In the former, the leaders must govern based on the constitution. In the latter, mob rule.

And you get these "definitions" ( and that is being charitable in the extreme to call those statements definitions) from where?

 

[haymarket]

THE U.S. OF THE FOUNDERS IS A REPUBLIC, WITH A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT, ARTICLE 4 SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION.

IT IS A MIXED GOVERNMENT, COMPOSED OF A MONARCHY, ARISTOCRACY AND A DEMOCRACY , WITH EACH BALANCED AGAINST THE OTHER.

POWER IS DIVIDED, BETWEEN THE STATES AND THE PEOPLE....TO PREVENT ALL POWER CONCENTRATED INTO ONE ENTITY WHICH WOULD CAUSE TYRANNY.


DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT LIKE THOSE USING DEMOCRACY IS WERE POWER IS CONCENTRATED ONLY INTO THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE, AND THEY RULE WITH ABSOLUTE POWER.


A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]

Sorry Herr Barkmann. But after your first sentence, the Constitution says none of the crap you just posted.

 

[Master PO]

mixed government was not the issue. That is why. Can you comprehend that?

The issue was since the constitution mandates a republican form of governement, is the usa a republic.

The constitution does not use the words mixed government nor does it promise it to the nation. You are attempting to fool people with a dishonest game of intellectual three card montie and that is fraud.

i stated.. You spit on wikipedia, when i used it.....however when you use it ..its a verifiable source.

 

[Master PO]

sorry herr barkmann. But after your first sentence, the constitution says none of the crap you just posted.

does not need too!

 

[haymarket]

does not need too!

Which is why it is irrelevant gibberish which has nothing to do with the issue here.

This entire call out thread is based on one huge error by Herr Barkmann that is either simply stupidity or blatant intellectual fraud: if Haymarket can use wikipedia to define what a REPUBLIC is, then I can use Wikipedia to define what a REPUBLIC is even if I am actually using Wikipedia to define what Mixed Government is and then pretending that nobody notices the switch.

So which is it Herr Barkmann?

 

[Master PO]

which is why it is irrelevant gibberish which has nothing to do with the issue here.

federalist 40 ...states the founders created mixed government

the constitution states, we have republican form of government.



MIXED GOVERNMENT BELOW:

The constitution states the house will be elected by the people.

The constitution states the senate will be appointed by the state legislatures.

The constitution states the president will be elected by the electoral college......or electors of the states