Dear Bernie, Meet the "Big Mac ATM" That Will Replace...$15/hr. Fast Food Workers

[chromium]

But this is already moving into all kinds of service positions. We went to Red Robin a couple of days ago and every table has a tablet where you can place orders and pay your bill without the need of a server. The only thing the server does is bring you your food and come when they're called for refills and the like. It won't be too long before they are no longer necessary at all.

There'll still be waitresses at high end restaurants i bet. They're part of the "ambience"/scenery. Well, at least the workers at Hooters are safe

 

[Lord of Planar]

This is a baseless claim. Mcdonalds has been paying its workers in Norway a minimum $16/hr and surviving just fine. Technology comes along when it does. It wouldn't matter if they were making $2/hr or $100, unless they lost customers because of these machines...which is also baseless

But oh yes, according to you they're much better off having a job but making poverty wages. There's a reason the turnover rate is so high

The idea behind living wages is that automation is inevitable and has been going on a long time, so ensuring those who do maintain employment can survive off it is only fair. If they weren't needed, they would be replaced by machines too

LOL...

Norway is different for so many reasons.

Does that apple taste like an orange to you?

How about explaining to us "why" Norway can do that!!!

 

[Lord of Planar]

There'll still be waitresses at high end restaurants i bet. They're part of the "ambience"/scenery. Well, at least the workers at Hooters are safe

Not really.

 

[JasperL]

'Dear Bernie, as you continue in your never-ending "Fight for $15", we thought you might benefit from a simple example of how economics work in a real life, functioning, capitalistic society. You see, Bernie, labor, much like your daily serving of crunchy granola, is just another "good" that businesses can choose to consume more or less of, depending on price. And, just to be crystal clear, when the price of labor (i.e. wages) increases, businesses tend to consume less of it. Finally, our dearest Bernie, when misinformed politicians radically disrupt labor markets by setting artificially high base prices, like your proposed $15 federal minimum wage, then businesses simply stop consuming labor completely and instead replace that labor with this "Big Mac ATM Machine."'

Dear Bernie, Meet the "Big Mac ATM" That Will Replace All Of Your $15 Per Hour Fast Food Workers | Zero Hedge

Thoughts?

1) Zero Hedge :roll:

2) I'm not at all convinced that fear of technology taking our jobs is a reason to oppose (or favor...) efforts to raise minimum wages, or other efforts to raise wages at places like McD or Walmart. We could have run a similar story every year for pretty much the entire 20th and 21st centuries - technology will take your job if you don't quit pushing for higher wages!! But I think the likely actual answer is when the technology is ready to replace, in this case, cooks at McD, wages will have very little to nearly nothing to do with the decision to roll it out. At best/worst, it moves the timeline up a bit, but so what? If the idea is workers/voters should quit pushing for higher wages because if they do the machines to replace them might come out a year or two earlier, that's stupid as hell.

 

[JasperL]

Are you saying that automation will not accelerate if wages go up too high, too fast? CEO after CEO has stated - even in private emails - that mass automation will result if $15/hour goes national.
It is simply more cost effective to automate than pay their workers $15/hr.. If it wasn't, these machines would never exist in America en masse.
And the technology to do the above has been around for decades. Look at Japan, they have vending machines for almost EVERYTHING...have for decades. This is not new technology.
WHy only now are they starting to pop up in America? Because only now are they becoming financially viable to American corporations do to high worker earnings.

Who's making high earnings in fast food? Someone working there will almost surely be poor, if they're an adult with kids, on food stamps, Medicaid.

Nothing...but the job is degrading. I have never done it, but I know many who have and they all HATED IT. Boring, degrading, dehumanizing, regimented, often hot (if you are in the kitchen), repetitive...they are LOUSY jobs.
The faster automation can replace them, the better for humanity.

Only if there are other jobs for those replaced. I wouldn't want to work in a manufacturing plant, but when they open up around here, they plants are FLOODED with applications because they pay decent wages with benefits. Doesn't matter what the job is - people like making a living.

 

[ludin]

That's absurd. You could pay workers three bucks an hour and automation would still become a thing. And NOBODY can live on three bucks an hour.

Automation is coming. Whether it will take over during the reign of President Trump or a future president (assuming we have one, but that's a discussion for another time) is a question that remains to be seen. And I'll tell you this much, if it happens under Trump, get ready for a backlash from the very workers who voted for him like we have not seen in decades.

You are ignoring laws of supply and demand again. Automation is in the works now because of places like seattle, LA and other cities and some states that think they can just raise the floor and businesses will not respond to the
increased cost. People pushing 15 an hour don't stop and think of overhead that is associated with that. they just assume 15 an hour and that is what is paid and it isn't.

To employ a person at 10 dollars and hour (depending on state) it cost a business ~13 an hour. to employee someone at 15 would cost about 18-19 an hour to the company.

those costs then make that position depending on what it is unaffordable. that is when automation comes into play. until that time there is no need to make the capital investment.

I go to fast food restaurants with regularity, and you know what? I treat them with respect. And you know what else? Shockingly, amazingly, they seem to return the favor!

yep.

 

[Zyphlin]

Moderator's Warning:

Moved to more appropriate location

 

[JasperL]

The basis for your second links claims are special seasonal adjustment software from the census bureau...LOL!!!

Software adjustments based on seasonal adjustments? From the Census bureau - who last time I looked, their mandate was not unemployment tracking. Give me a break.

It's pretty ridiculous to dismiss seasonal adjustments, and the gearheads at Census are completely capable of it, but OK, here's the data NSA. What it shows is employment is up for Seattle since the minimum wage hikes.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Only if there are other jobs for those replaced. I wouldn't want to work in a manufacturing plant, but when they open up around here, they plants are FLOODED with applications because they pay decent wages with benefits. Doesn't matter what the job is - people like making a living.

Do you think we could open more factories in the US if we started charging high tariffs on imports from China, Mexico, etc?

Wouldn't all those family wage jobs be nice!

 

[JasperL]

Mister BS either knew this was part of the economic adaptation process or should have given he was popularising it as a Senator and candidate. So he was either negligent or deceiving the people intentionally for votes.

But what's the alternative? Workers demanding LOWER wages to put off the day when a machine kills their job? Accepting decades of stagnant wages?

Besides, rising labor productivity means that if not machines to take over ordering or cooking, improved technology or processes in other economic sectors produce more goods with less labor. That's a good thing and is essential for sustainable increases in overall living standards. So what you're saying is Bernie should favor policies to keep wages low and to therefore delay/avoid investments that increase productivity. It's doomed to fail, first of all - the robots are coming - and in a healthy labor market/economy we'd want the effort to fail.

The problem for the past few decades is we've had tremendous productivity increases but little to none of it is going to workers. I'm not sure if Bernie had a workable plan to change that, but I don't think he was negligent for pushing for higher wages. Not to do it, or pursue some alternative to improve living standards at the bottom, is just accepting defeat in the hopeless belief that accepting the status quo MIGHT put off the robot day of reckoning by a year or two.

 

[JasperL]

Do you think we could open more factories in the US if we started charging high tariffs on imports from China, Mexico, etc?

Wouldn't all those family wage jobs be nice!

I'm not sure how a trade war will work out. Not being sarcastic - we'll just have to see. For example, we export about $220 billion to Mexico per year. Lots of it is raw materials and food, but if trade gets disrupted, it will have a big effect on lots of domestic firms. It might or might not be offset by new plants opening in the U.S. Same thing with China. If we start a trade war with them, it might preclude domestic firms from exporting to China AND elsewhere in the region, which again means job losses in the U.S. But with our trade deficits, again, maybe over time those jobs come home. If it happens it will be a pretty dramatic/disruptive experiment, that's for sure. LOTS of winners AND losers...

 

[Lord of Planar]

I'm not sure how a trade war will work out. Not being sarcastic - we'll just have to see. For example, we export about $220 billion to Mexico per year. Lots of it is raw materials and food, but if trade gets disrupted, it will have a big effect on lots of domestic firms. It might or might not be offset by new plants opening in the U.S. Same thing with China. If we start a trade war with them, it might preclude domestic firms from exporting to China AND elsewhere in the region, which again means job losses in the U.S. But with our trade deficits, again, maybe over time those jobs come home. If it happens it will be a pretty dramatic/disruptive experiment, that's for sure. LOTS of winners AND losers...

Hey.

If we are exporting $1 billion worth of goods to a country and importing $20 billion...

If we change that to $0/$0... aren't we now keeping that $19 billion in our own economy?

I say let the trade wars begin!

 

[JasperL]

Hey.

If we are exporting $1 billion worth of goods to a country and importing $20 billion...

If we change that to $0/$0... aren't we now keeping that $19 billion in our own economy?

I say let the trade wars begin!

It depends, obviously, and the analysis isn't that simple, that's for sure. I have a decent grasp of economics, but no real background in trade, so I just can't intelligently debate what the result will be. I've never been convinced what we call 'free trade' (which isn't) works out like the textbooks predict, and welcome a revisiting of our long term industrial and trade strategies.

 

[GhostlyJoe]

Where EXACTLY did I say fast food workers do not keep the place clean, serve (relatively) fresh food or work damn hard?



Where did I show disrespect? I said I don't blame them if they sometimes don't give a ****. It's generally a ****ty job. You said yourself they work 'damn hard'. And we all know it is for lousy money? You call that anything but a lousy job? I sure as **** don't.

- I said that sometimes they have fair-at-best or (rarely) lousy attitudes...they do sometimes. Are you saying they never do? Yes or no?

- I said that sometimes they 'mistreat' the food out of frustration or boredom? They do...that is direct from people I know who worked there and saw it happen. Not often - very rarely. But it DID happen. Are you saying that it NEVER happens? Yes or no?

- I said that EVERY, single person that I knew who did that job hated it...and they did. Are you saying lots of people (not all - but lots) do not hate working fast food jobs? Yes or No?


If you answered 'no' to all those questions (and if you didn't - I say you are either stupid or were lying)...than stow your attitude as I did not knock the workers...I knocked the job they are forced to do if they want to get paid a lousy amount of money...big FRIGGIN' difference. DUH!!! You owe me an apology pal (though I realize that getting people around this place to admit they were wrong is next to impossible).

I feel bad for them...I am not looking down on them

I look down on NO ONE...EVER.

And brainiac...I used to deliver pizza for years...so I was a fast food worker.

I think I explained myself sufficiently in my first reply. Your post struck a nerve with me. It came off as condescending, especially juxtaposed with the snarky headline in the OP. But I'm over it. So, I apologize if I read more into your post than you intended. I haven't worked fast food in 20 years, but I still can identify with the kids deck-mopping the back line at McDonald's.

 

[Phys251]

If you require doubling the money employees are paid, then automation becomes more affordable.

Fast food is not a living wage job. People need to aspire for more.

More money or more dignity? If you mean more money, I agree. If you mean more dignity, well, that's a larger social problem. When did we as a society start making the mistake that low-skill work was not a "real job"? Is it some sort of a "fake job" or something?

 

[Phys251]

You are ignoring laws of supply and demand again. Automation is in the works now because of places like seattle, LA and other cities and some states that think they can just raise the floor and businesses will not respond to the
increased cost. People pushing 15 an hour don't stop and think of overhead that is associated with that. they just assume 15 an hour and that is what is paid and it isn't.

To employ a person at 10 dollars and hour (depending on state) it cost a business ~13 an hour. to employee someone at 15 would cost about 18-19 an hour to the company.

those costs then make that position depending on what it is unaffordable. that is when automation comes into play. until that time there is no need to make the capital investment.

yep.

All hail our Lord and Saviours, the greater god Demand, and the lesser god Supply! /snark

 

[Lord of Planar]

More money or more dignity? If you mean more money, I agree. If you mean more dignity, well, that's a larger social problem. When did we as a society start making the mistake that low-skill work was not a "real job"? Is it some sort of a "fake job" or something?

Dignity?

How is forcing such a dramatic increase going to increase a person's dignity? It's still a minimum wage job. The dignity comes from within, and it doesn't change a persons worth. If anything, it reduces it.

 

[Phys251]

Dignity?

How is forcing such a dramatic increase going to increase a person's dignity? It's still a minimum wage job. The dignity comes from within, and it doesn't change a persons worth. If anything, it reduces it.

See, that right there is what I'm talking about. Who gave you or anyone else to determine another person's dignity? That should be an internal issue for that person alone. You don't get to define my dignity any more than I get to define yours.

 

[ludin]

All hail our Lord and Saviours, the greater god Demand, and the lesser god Supply! /snark

as usual you have no argument. concession noted.

 

[code1211]

What exactly does this have to do with Bernie Sanders or the minimum wage? Automation has been in the works for years now, and no political party is going to be able to stop it.

And furthermore, what's your deal with fast food workers? They're just human beings trying to make a living, typically off a wage that may not even be enough to pay the bills.

Sadly, the issue has nothing at all to do with people.

It has to do with profitability.

The wage rate is just the metric that justifies the up front expense of the purchase of a robot vs the ongoing expense employing a person.

If the robot costs a one time outlay of $25,000 and has a usable life of 5 years, that's a fixed expense.

If the position replaced costs $25,000 per year with a turn-over rate of 300% requiring benefits, back ups and re-training, the equation get pretty easy pretty fast.

After that, it's only PR.

Checking myself out at the grocery store is preferred to me.

That scanner kiosk ain't cheap. Neither is the entry level cashier who knows less about the scanner than I do.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Sadly, the issue has nothing at all to do with people.

It has to do with profitability.

The wage rate is just the metric that justifies the up front expense of the purchase of a robot vs the ongoing expense employing a person.

If the robot costs a one time outlay of $25,000 and has a usable life of 5 years, that's a fixed expense.

If the position replaced costs $25,000 per year with a turn-over rate of 300% requiring benefits, back ups and re-training, the equation get pretty easy pretty fast.

After that, it's only PR.

Checking myself out at the grocery store is preferred to me.

That scanner kiosk ain't cheap. Neither is the entry level cashier who knows less about the scanner than I do.

An automation system would cost well over $25k...

A system for just making hamburgers, where employees only input the materials and collect the residue would likely be a minimum of five times that amount, or more. You would still need daily cleaning and sanitation. You would also need at least two for when one breaks down, and a maintenance contract or skilled labor at $30/hr or more to maintain it.

Such equipment would probably have a service life of more than 20 years also. With current law, tax write-offs can be taken over multiple years, and this is what makes it cost effective. The largest savings upfront are the reduction of tax liabilities, possible to zero.

I avoid the scanners in stores, except a few occasions I am buying lunch goodies on my way to work. I then load up all my pennies to dimes, and feed them first, pay the balance with my debit card.

I normally boycott them as not to take a living wage away from a cashier.

 

[code1211]

An automation system would cost well over $25k...

A system for just making hamburgers, where employees only input the materials and collect the residue would likely be a minimum of five times that amount, or more. You would still need daily cleaning and sanitation. You would also need at least two for when one breaks down, and a maintenance contract or skilled labor at $30/hr or more to maintain it.

Such equipment would probably have a service life of more than 20 years also. With current law, tax write-offs can be taken over multiple years, and this is what makes it cost effective. The largest savings upfront are the reduction of tax liabilities, possible to zero.

I avoid the scanners in stores, except a few occasions I am buying lunch goodies on my way to work. I then load up all my pennies to dimes, and feed them first, pay the balance with my debit card.

I normally boycott them as not to take a living wage away from a cashier.

I don't know about the "back of house" support costs for the hamburger machine or the pizza machine or the french fry machine, but i've seen advertisements or news stories on all.

Regarding the check-out scanner at the retail outlets, they are the front of house manifestations of the inventory control systems that all product distribution centers use today. If you've ever visited a Distribution Center, you know it's an amazing and fast moving box mover.

After 5 years or so the big ones are celebrating their billionth box. Astonishing!

Even if you use the living person cashier, there are many, many people whose job you can't save. The products that have bar codes are tracked through all of the systems that handle them. Those products that arrive at the back door of the local grocery can't even be accepted without a bar code to be entered into inventory and that bar code is accepted by use of a scanner.

This is true of everything. Shoes to hats to fruit to nuts. All of the parts in your car and the car itself has a bar code. Each bar in the code has a number and people can't read them.

We are become cogs in the machine. Can a robot duplicate the "Hooters" experience? Might be the last bastion of humanity.

WONDERPIZZAUSA - The Company

French Fry Machine

Burger Robots And Burrito Vending Machines Shake Up Fast Food | Neon Tommy

 

[Lord of Planar]

Keep in mind, it is worthless without providing a full selection of burgers. This means added complexity.

 

[austrianecon]

A machine that has to be manually loaded by workers,maintained by workers and burgers that have to be made by workers will somehow replace workers?

Ah yes, but you forget about the worker that takes your order. Those are the ones that are replaced.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Interesting.

That burger making Momentum Machine is apparently only $35k. I wonder what limitations it might have?