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'Corruption' of the earliest New Testament texts by the orthodox Church.

And others disagree...

The Jewish historian Josephus, in answering opponents in his work Against Apion (I, 38-40 [8]) around the year 100 C.E., confirms that by then the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures had been fixed for a long time. He wrote: “We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time. . . . "

Outside the Scriptures themselves there is evidence that, as early as 90-100 C.E., at least ten of Paul’s letters were collected together. It is certain that at an early date Christians were gathering together the inspired Christian writings.


Canon — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The big item here, Josephus does not provide the titles of the "twenty-two books" so that there are some scholars debating just which books other than the Pentateuch did Josephus believe were the correct ones.

The majority of scholars say that only 6 or 7 of the 13 epistles known as the Pauline Letters were written by the same person, definitely not 10. I know of no text dated to 100 CE that has gathered the Pauline Epistles. The earliest mention that we know of is found in the work of Marcion of Sinope, a 'heretic' who believed only the Gospel of Luke and the Pauline Epistles were to be seen as sacred. Marcion put together his version of the New Testament in the middle of the 2nd century.

The text quoted, The Ante-Nicene Fathers is a mid-19th century publication. There has been just a wee bit of learning on the subject since that time.
 
A slight error on my part, when I wrote there are more words than we can read in Matthew, I should have finished the sentence with 21:12-13 It looks like Justin combined other sayings from Matthew in his 'explanation'

Matthew 23:27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Other sections of Justin's 'teaching' are found in Matthew 23:13 and 23:23
 
Is Jesus a god from god, an angel or just a prophet spreading the teachings of god ?
 
I meant in religious belief ?


Was Jesus one man ?


Or a bit like Robin Hood where various stories are attributed to one figure.


What does "Jesus" actually mean ?

Jesus is the English translation of the Greek Iisoús, which was a translation of the Aramaic Yehoshu'a . .. which if you translate it to English directly is closest to Joshua. It literally means 'Yahweh is salvation'.
 
Jesus is the English translation of the Greek Iisoús, which was a translation of the Aramaic Yehoshu'a . .. which if you translate it to English directly is closest to Joshua. It literally means 'Yahweh is salvation'.

I read that it means "god loves" which is the same thing really

Do you think there were many people called Jesus in Roman ruled Palestine ?
 
I read that it means "god loves" which is the same thing really

Do you think there were many people called Jesus in Roman ruled Palestine ?

It was a very common name.
 
How do we know that ?

From the literature of the time for one. The Talmud talks about a number of people named Jesus. Josephus talked about a high priest name Jesus. Archaeologists have unearthed the tombs of 71 Yeshuas from the period of Jesus’ death. That indicts it was quite common.
 
From the literature of the time for one. The Talmud talks about a number of people named Jesus. Josephus talked about a high priest name Jesus. Archaeologists have unearthed the tombs of 71 Yeshuas from the period of Jesus’ death. That indicts it was quite common.

Do any of those figures predate the birth of the biblical Jesus ?
 
Do any of those figures predate the birth of the biblical Jesus ?

Yes, there is a book of Joshua in the Tankah. Joshua is the English for Yeshua, which is Jesus's name.
 
I meant in religious belief ?


Was Jesus one man ?


Or a bit like Robin Hood where various stories are attributed to one figure.


What does "Jesus" actually mean ?

There is no single , correct answer to that question.
 
There is no single , correct answer to that question.

Depending on how you approach that, the name 'יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yehoshu'a) does have a literal meaning in Hebrew. It means Yahweh is our salvation. If you go by the literal meaning of the name, then yes, there is a single correct answer.
 
Because the 'winners' get to write the story, we can only guess, well - guess about some stuff concerning the creation of the New Testament that we know today. There is evidence, often overlooked as in the quote I provided from Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho which would appear to show that Justin held some beliefs from the Marcionite faith, even though Justin's writings are often used to provide support for presently-accepted beliefs.

One recent commenter posted that the "canon was settled by the end of the 1st century", yet one of those websites I bother to read has the following about the canon.

History of the Bible

The assemblage of the New Testament is a very interesting process and a highly complex one. It can, however, by summarized relatively simply as follows.

Various Christians wrote books explaining the history of the Christian Church (including Gospels about the life of Christ and more general histories such as the Acts of the Apostles) and letters addressed to specific communities and persons (such as the letters of Saint Paul) and also what are best considered to be “open letters” (such as Hebrews). There were hundreds of different documents circulating around, all of them purporting to the authentic Christian teaching and accurate history and doctrine.

However, many of these documents were not what they claimed to be – they were forgeries not written by the people whose names they bore, or were heretical documents advancing novel notions about Christ. Some of these documents have survived today – examples are the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas. Neither of these documents were written by their alleged authors – they are late forgeries designed to cash in on the success and popularity of Christianity.

Out of all these hundreds of documents – many of them forgeries – the current 27 book New Testament appeared. This process took a long time – roughly 300 years went by from the writing of the last book of the New Testament (Revelation) until the list was finalized.

Examples from early leaders of the church:
Irenaeus (c.130-c.202) in Adversus Haereses chose only 20 books for his 'accepted' texts: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, First Corinthians, Second Corinthians, Galatians Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, First Thessalonians, Second Thessalonians, First Timothy, Second Timothy, Titus, Philemon, First John, and Revelation

Tertullian (155-220) didn't like Hebrews, First Peter, Second John, Jude, and the Shepherd of Hermas. The Shepherd is found in the Codex Sinaiticus which is dated to the mid 4th century. Obviously not every scribe listened to Tertullian.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215) saw the epistles to the Hebrews, Second John, Jude, First and Second Epistles of Clement (of Rome), Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, and Revelation of Peter, as holding matters of interest but he didn't view them as 'scriptural' or canonical.

As with all of the early writings, today we often only have quotes attributed to the early church fathers by those who were writing centuries later.

Ten fragmentary texts of New Testament books which are dated to the 2nd century are the oldest ones known of at this time. None of them have the title that we associate with the words that can be read. Some academic types speculate that the passages found in these fragments may be the source for the books we know but that they were actually pulled together by those scribes who wrote the full texts without attribution to the original author.
 
What is the name "Immanuel" ?


Matthew 1:23
“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” "

Immanuel is a name that means 'God is with us'. Also, Matthew 1:23 shows that the author of the Gospel of Matthew was using the Greek Septuagint, because the Hebrew uses 'almah' , which does not mean virgin, but the Greek used parthéno, which often meant virgin.

I would like to see , other than that line, where Jesus was called 'immanuel' in his own lifetime.
 
Immanuel is a name that means 'God is with us'. Also, Matthew 1:23 shows that the author of the Gospel of Matthew was using the Greek Septuagint, because the Hebrew uses 'almah' , which does not mean virgin, but the Greek used parthéno, which often meant virgin.

I would like to see , other than that line, where Jesus was called 'immanuel' in his own lifetime.

It's not in the scriptures elsewhere as far as I can tell.

So how many names do we have ?


"Christ" is often used in isolation as a name.

.
 
It's not in the scriptures elsewhere as far as I can tell.

So how many names do we have ?


"Christ" is often used in isolation as a name.

.

Of course, that is just modern usage. The original Hebrew that was later translated as 'Christ' (moishe) is a title, and it means 'anointed'. At the time the messianic expectations started happening as eschatology in the Jewish religion, there were two 'anointed' people in the culture. One was the King of Israel. The other was the High Priest in the temple. The 'term' of a High Priest was for 1 year, and then either he was renewed for the year, and was anointed by oil to be high priest for a year, or someone else was appointed. The King of Israel was anointed by the High Priest in the temple. The Jewish expectation is that the expected Messiah (moishe) would get a native Jewish king back to Israel, establish 1000 years of peace, and provide the Torah as a world wide center for religious focus. So, if you follow that tradition into Christianity, the term 'Christ' is a title, not a name.
 
Of course, that is just modern usage. The original Hebrew that was later translated as 'Christ' (moishe) is a title, and it means 'anointed'. At the time the messianic expectations started happening as eschatology in the Jewish religion, there were two 'anointed' people in the culture. One was the King of Israel. The other was the High Priest in the temple. The 'term' of a High Priest was for 1 year, and then either he was renewed for the year, and was anointed by oil to be high priest for a year, or someone else was appointed. The King of Israel was anointed by the High Priest in the temple. The Jewish expectation is that the expected Messiah (moishe) would get a native Jewish king back to Israel, establish 1000 years of peace, and provide the Torah as a world wide center for religious focus. So, if you follow that tradition into Christianity, the term 'Christ' is a title, not a name.

The gospels say Jesus was directly descended from King David and claim royal lineage.
 
The gospels say Jesus was directly descended from King David and claim royal lineage.

Yes.. yes, they do. However, there is a problem with that. According to the Gospels, Jesus doesn't have a human father, and it is not the biological son of Joseph.

The descent for being King goes through the unbroken male line. Therefore, by Jewish law, he is not from the male line of David.
 
Yes.. yes, they do. However, there is a problem with that. According to the Gospels, Jesus doesn't have a human father, and it is not the biological son of Joseph.

The descent for being King goes through the unbroken male line. Therefore, by Jewish law, he is not from the male line of David.

What does Jewish history say ?

Of course since the Jews didn't believe that God impregnated Mary, that would make him legitimate in their eyes.
 
Yes.. yes, they do. However, there is a problem with that. According to the Gospels, Jesus doesn't have a human father, and it is not the biological son of Joseph.

The descent for being King goes through the unbroken male line. Therefore, by Jewish law, he is not from the male line of David.

Why didn't the people who made up the story notice that?
 
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