Conversion Therapy Proponent Caught Trolling for Sex on a Gay "Hookup" Site

[OlNate]

When people seek to throw things away that have worked for hundreds of years, it's the height of arrogance. Society shouldn't be so quick that look down their nose at previous generations. Many things were done the way they were 50 or even 100 years ago for a reason.

I'm not sure I'm looking down my nose at people for being "of their time" by acknowledging the damage and hurt caused by what they did as a result.

On the other hand, I think you might be surprised that "how things have worked for hundred of years" - assuming you mean homophobia - is actually the outlier.

https://www.ranker.com/list/homosexuality-in-history/david-sharp

 

[CLAX1911]

Present one shred of physical evidence that can justify the removal. You cannot. Its all fake parameters with made up observations, all concocted out of the blue. Its crap.

Well considering the DSM III was the first Diagnostics statistical manual to use objective criteria as too how to define a mental illness and how they are considered to be mental illnesses I would say the lack of objective criteria to keep it in the DSM II (because in 1974 it was removed and the third Diagnostics and statistical manual did not appear until 1980) is evidence enough that it doesn't belong.

If you can do what the entirety of the behavioral sciences that opposed the removal of homosexuality couldn't do in 1974 despite having Decades of Education I'm willing to listen. But I don't have high hopes.

Dismissing the entirety of Behavioral Sciences and some sort of conspiracy seems to be what you're attempting to do here.

 

[OlNate]

Present one shred of physical evidence that can justify the removal. You cannot. Its all fake parameters with made up observations, all concocted out of the blue. Its crap.

Present one shred of physical evidence that justifies it being there in the first place. You cannot. Its all fake parameters with made up observations, all concocted out of the blue. Its crap.

 

[CLAX1911]

When people seek to throw things away that have worked for hundreds of years, it's the height of arrogance. Society shouldn't be so quick that look down their nose at previous generations. Many things were done the way they were 50 or even 100 years ago for a reason.

That's true to some degree, we shouldn't discard beliefs and axiom's just because they're old but just because they're old is no reason to maintain them.

Doing things a certain way because that's just the way they're done is illogical and intellectually lazy. If you can find better ways of doing things those ways should be implemented and the old ones discarded.

 

[Xelor]

Well, that's a start, but there is no mental disorder here, merely a difference of opinions. Sadly the repeated pronouncement that it is a mental disorder has justified those who feel rights should be taken away or withheld in the past, or at minimum delayed bringing gay folks up to par with hetero folks. Why is it so important to you to perpetuate this falsehood? Why not simply live and let live? Seems a strange hill to die on for someone with no axe to grind...

Red/Off-topic:
...that clause reminded me of a conversation I had some while back.

A friend of mine mentioned the rapidity with which gays, via the orchestrated gay rights movement, obtained social and legal parity and he contrasted it with how long it has taken racial minorities and women to do not quite as well in reaching their goals of a similar nature, all the while having correspondingly well organized movements. He posited that gays obtained parity so rapidly because of white gay men who, as he put it, were simply fed up with the loss of privilege they would otherwise have enjoyed as white males.

 

[SDET]

I'm not sure I'm looking down my nose at people for being "of their time" by acknowledging the damage and hurt caused by what they did as a result.

On the other hand, I think you might be surprised that "how things have worked for hundred of years" - assuming you mean homophobia - is actually the outlier.

https://www.ranker.com/list/homosexuality-in-history/david-sharp

One thing that is surprising is that Will Geer was a homosexual. As a connoisseur of 1950s cultural artifacts, I find it interesting that Communists and Homosexuals were lumped together.

 

[CLAX1911]

Present one shred of physical evidence that justifies it being there in the first place. You cannot. Its all fake parameters with made up observations, all concocted out of the blue. Its crap.

I love watching people talk about this like they know something that experts in the field of Behavioral Science don't.

The first Diagnostics and statistical manual was published in 1952. It contained approximately 60 different disorders that it didn't refer to as disorders but reactions. It was less than a hundred pages and it was more of a manual on how to treat people committed to sanitariums. It wasn't based on objective criteria because the field of psychology was in its relative infancy or early childhood at the time. It was actually the first standard that was produced in the field. Up until that point all they were working on where theories. And treatments for mentally ill people varied from one sanitarium to the next.

This isn't based on any knowledge I had to go to school for, it was based on a few Wikipedia articles. So this information is available to anybody who doesn't want to remain in an echo chamber.

The argument aside there's a few videos on YouTube if you're at all interested in this produced by professors that discuss this very subject and it is extremely fascinating the development and evolution of this field in just the past 40 years.

 

[OlNate]

Red/Off-topic:
...that clause reminded me of a conversation I had some while back.

A friend of mine mentioned the rapidity with which gays, via the orchestrated gay rights movement, obtained social and legal parity and he contrasted it with how long it has taken racial minorities and women to do not quite as well in reaching their goals of a similar nature, all the while having correspondingly well organized movements. He posited that gays obtained parity so rapidly because of white gay men who, as he put it, were simply fed up with the loss of privilege they would otherwise have enjoyed as white males.

I would argue that it was more than loss of privilege they were vexed about...but I wouldn't doubt that their whiteness helped things along. One clear sign of this for me is in talking to numerous people of color from the gay community, who say their "It's OK to be gay" day came much much later than their white counterparts.

 

[OlNate]

One thing that is surprising is that Will Geer was a homosexual. As a connoisseur of 1950s cultural artifacts, I find it interesting that Communists and Homosexuals were lumped together.

Why is that?

 

[SDET]

Why is that?

I wonder that myself. Could it be that the gay rights movement originated in the Communist Party?

 

[joko104]

Conversion Therapy Proponent Caught Trolling for Gay Men

Norman Goldwasser is a therapist who likens homosexuality to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and claims his so-called therapy, a regimen rejected by every respected medical and mental health association, can alter one's sexual orientation. That's his daytime schtick. At night the guy "cruises" for sex on a gay dating website.

While I think it ridiculous to attempt to alter people's sexual orientation -- it's not as though there's overt encouragement to be gay, so there's no reason why anyone who isn't gay would seek same-sex partners/romantic relationships and live as a gay person -- the country's laws allow individuals thus inclined to do so. What I have a a bigger problem with is folks singing one tune and dancing to a diametrically opposite one.

Goldwasser is yet another manifestation of the degradation in integrity and honesty we observe throughout our society. While I'm willing to tolerate the existence and expression of a host of ideas, attitudes and behaviors I oppose, I just have no forbearance for hypocrisy presented to abet one's own fortunes or that deliberately dehumanizes others and destroys them by declaring their very being dysfunctional. If one is going to undertake such tacks, one must do so with portfolio and integrity.

Not in advocacy of "fix the gay out" therapy, there are piles of possible sociological, personal life experiences, and interpersonal reasons why a person would enter into a same sex relationship, depending upon their own social circle.

 

[HumblePi]

It seems to be a psychosis with some of these folks. I think most people who are proponents of conversion therapy or even practitioners are at least to some degree homosexual themselves. The tend to adopt this sort of binge and Purge Behavior. They view it as sort of like an alcoholic slipping up and having another drink.

It's really myopic that they don't see their own psychosis for what it is. I have been there before I've never done conversion therapy but years ago I tried very hard to not be homosexual. And you can go along resisting things until you can resist no longer.

I find it sad more than anything. These people are so desperate to fit into some religion or social structure that they torture themselves. I did it for about 13 years and I have enough. But some of these people hey do it into their fifties and sixties I don't know how they do it.

I guess some people just never grow out of they're very limited religious views. I really do feel sorry for them.

I would love the opportunity to talk to an ex gay person I've never met one I've seen videos and crap on YouTube but I've never actually met a real person from that philosophy.

I really do wonder what makes them tick.

Here's one, if you can catch him you can discuss it with him. He can be found among the progressives that are planning to convert to conservatism.

 

[CLAX1911]

Red/Off-topic:
...that clause reminded me of a conversation I had some while back.

A friend of mine mentioned the rapidity with which gays, via the orchestrated gay rights movement, obtained social and legal parity and he contrasted it with how long it has taken racial minorities and women to do not quite as well in reaching their goals of a similar nature, all the while having correspondingly well organized movements. He posited that gays obtained parity so rapidly because of white gay men who, as he put it, were simply fed up with the loss of privilege they would otherwise have enjoyed as white males.

I disagree with this evaluation. I think it takes away from everybody who risked their lives coming out. The only real way you get social change is by changing hearts and Minds. When people you know that you've known for years come out as gay that tends to undermine the canards that were held that gay people are degenerates. It's one thing if some stranger you've never met or some acquaintance you run into from time to time is gay but it's very different when your brother or your daughter tells you they're homosexual or bisexual. What happens there is that it goes from this nebulous thing that you donate a little bit of time thinking about maybe once every 6 months to now this affect someone I love.

I witnessed it first-hand I was born in the 80s. I remember growing up in my Loosely religious family and being taught how wrong homosexuality was. I wouldn't have considered a large part of my family to be bigots but they had enough separation from this issue that they didn't have to reevaluate their views. I came out to my family at 27 expecting that I would never see some of them again. Yes there were some that were mad at me there is one or two distant cousins that disowned me if you can disown a cousin. But most of them because they knew me and then loved me started at that moment a process of reevaluating their views.

Also this idea that it's a white privilege inspired seems to make none white homosexuals bisexuals and transgender people invisible and they weren't they were very much part of it.

 

[OlNate]

I wonder that myself. Could it be that the gay rights movement originated in the Communist Party?

Occam's Razor would suggest that it was being treated like human garbage, not political views, inspired the Gay Rights movement. Not to mention that anything anyone didn't like got associated with Communism - I'm surprised the common cold wasn't declared Communist in the 50's...hehe...

 

[OlNate]

That's true to some degree, we shouldn't discard beliefs and axiom's just because they're old but just because they're old is no reason to maintain them.

Doing things a certain way because that's just the way they're done is illogical and intellectually lazy. If you can find better ways of doing things those ways should be implemented and the old ones discarded.

Careful, boi, you're starting to sound dictionary definition progressive over there...

 

[CLAX1911]

Here's one, if you can catch him you can discuss it with him. He can be found among the progressives that are planning to convert to conservatism.

First that's pretty funny.

Second shortly after I came out I started exploring different things and one thing I came across was gay Christians and within the gay Christian Community there is a nomenclature that took me awhile to understand. They referred to as side "A" and side to "B." And through discussing with these folks I learned that side a where homosexuals bisexuals and transgender people that didn't believe Christianity condemned romantic relationships between two people of the same sex. And side B what homosexual bisexual or transgender Cristians that believed that it did. And for the most part people on that side of the philosophy where or tried to be celibate.

I don't doubt they're out there because there are side B homosexual Cristians. I just don't think it's a very common.

 

[CLAX1911]

Careful, boi, you're starting to sound dictionary definition progressive over there...

Well certain things should progress. So in certain areas I am Progressive.

 

[OlNate]

Well certain things should progress. So in certain areas I am Progressive.

Refreshing to talk to someone who understands that Progressive need not be exclusively right or left.

 

[CLAX1911]

Refreshing to talk to someone who understands that Progressive need not be exclusively right or left.

Well I often tell people that I'm very liberal on a few things and I'm very conservative on a few things and no real political party matches up with both of those.

And yes certain things should progress and should get better I could make a list but it would be off-topic. I wouldn't call myself a progressive because progress for the sake of progress can be sometimes just as bad as stagnation or regression.

 

[OlNate]

Well I often tell people that I'm very liberal on a few things and I'm very conservative on a few things and no real political party matches up with both of those.

And yes certain things should progress and should get better I could make a list but it would be off-topic. I wouldn't call myself a progressive because progress for the sake of progress can be sometimes just as bad as stagnation or regression.

Progress for the sake of progress isn't progressive.

 

[HumblePi]

First that's pretty funny.

Second shortly after I came out I started exploring different things and one thing I came across was gay Christians and within the gay Christian Community there is a nomenclature that took me awhile to understand. They referred to as side "A" and side to "B." And through discussing with these folks I learned that side a where homosexuals bisexuals and transgender people that didn't believe Christianity condemned romantic relationships between two people of the same sex. And side B what homosexual bisexual or transgender Cristians that believed that it did. And for the most part people on that side of the philosophy where or tried to be celibate.

I don't doubt they're out there because there are side B homosexual Cristians. I just don't think it's a very common.

I don't feel it's necessary to get inside the head of my neighbor as to why she likes queso and paprika on her corn on the cob the way they like it in Mexico because to me that's just revolting. I don't think I should have to understand the workings of anyone's mind when it comes to how they view their own sexuality, that's their choice not anyone else's. I don't need to understand all that, I just need to accept all that.

 

[CLAX1911]

Occam's Razor would suggest that it was being treated like human garbage, not political views, inspired the Gay Rights movement. Not to mention that anything anyone didn't like got associated with Communism - I'm surprised the common cold wasn't declared Communist in the 50's...hehe...

Yes the Reds under the bed paranoia was quite bizarre. It seemed odd to be worried about such a thing.

I like to point to the Stonewall riots as the first real strong motion in the battle for equality. And that happened shortly after the Civil Rights Movement. One could even say they were connected and I think they were.

We as a culture were abandoning backward axiom's and canards. It was a difficult time culturally speaking because that was shortly after this summer of love and hippies and this sort of postmodern movement. If we look at things as as a whole we see a lot of civil movements at the time. There was the women's Liberation movement the Civil Rights Movement was winding down the homosexual rights were kicking up.

I think is a culture it was just time to challenge these beliefs and viewpoints.

 

[btthegreat]

Uhm how do I know they self loath, because I was one of them, and I meet them in support group's. Unless you are a gay man you really have no idea what I am talking about.

I am a 57 gay man who came out to his family in his early twenties . I have been in, then out , then back in,, then out again, at periods of my life, depending on the circumstance, the cultural setting etc. I pick when and to whom I come out. I can correct assumptions or leave them uncorrected. At one time I was insecure, scared, and mired in confusion and guilt, so I understand that form of closeted behavior. (I think 'self loathing may be a bit harsh to describe it). But I never pretended to be some straight guy, making or laughing at homo jokes. Too much class and decency for that crap.

I agree its hard for those who have never been out, to have a healthy frame of reference about the impact of the choice, because they have not lived on both sides of the closet door. They carry too much baggage they can't really unpack, but I won't impose a broad judgement on every other closeted individual because I don't know all the factors in their decision. IMHO Its okay to do with that closet door whatever you want. Those of us on the other side, have no business labeling them, or defining them by their decisions.

Your subset that includes you and the men in your support group, are self selected or they would not be searching for and involved in that support group. Any emotionally mature and content gays, secure with their decisions on either side, won't be found there.

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't feel it's necessary to get inside the head of my neighbor as to why she likes queso and paprika on her corn on the cob the way they like it in Mexico because to me that's just revolting.

well food preference is largely inspired by ethnic background and the culture you grew up in.

It's easy to understand why people who moved in three houses down from me don't like pork they immigrated from Iran in the 80s. It was simply part of the culture there. That is it hard to understand at all. As of yet we don't really understand why seemingly A random assortment of people are homosexual.

And something to keep in mind you may not need someone close to you to come out to accept it. That may have a lot to do with where you live how old you are and how you were raised.

People in their 20s early 30s don't seem to care. The Boomers and gen xers have a little harder time. And you have to understand it went from being something that was dirty or downright evil to just another thing in their lifetime.

I had to overcome some programming to accept myself s I'm kind of on that edge between Millennial and Gen X I grew up in the 80s and 90s.

I have no idea how old you are or where you live or how you grew up. And the idea that you don't need to know any of this crap is really kind of cool. But some people need some time. Not everyone had the benefit of being born 20, 25 years ago or living in a place where people were accepted regardless of sexual orientation or ethnic background or whatever or parents that didn't instill these old fashioned ideas in their children.

Don't get me wrong people are trying to catch up to you butyou may actually be the product of a different culture.

I don't think I should have to understand the workings of anyone's mind when it comes to how they view their own sexuality, that's their choice not anyone else's. I don't need to understand all that, I just need to accept all that.

No you don't and it's pretty inspiring that more and more people think this way. And my family members didn't need to understand the inner workings of my sexual orientation either.

It's more about an experience a personal experience. It's easy to say for instance that those Asian people there's strange because of the things they eat. But if your son or daughter marries one then do you want to be part of your son or daughter's life you have to accept things up until this point you didn't even have to think about. And you might find that they aren't that much different then you.

And that's what I'm describing. It may be a complete moot point for you. you may be scratching your head trying to figure out how anyone could be in this situation. But I was in it myself. I had to undo some of this cultural stigma that was placed on people with my sexual orientation. It still causes a few issues. My partner never says anything but other people we know that are homosexual particularly look younger people are perplexed by it.

I think that's kind of cool.

 

[CLAX1911]

Progress for the sake of progress isn't progressive.

Well in the strictest sense it is. But not all progressivism is logical. And that goes for any political philosophy.