California Wildfires- a climate bellwether?

[istodolez]

Decades of inadequate fuel removal.

-sigh- It would be nice if you would suddenly reveal an awareness of the history of science at some point.

The history of wildfire suppression goes back to the early part of the 20th century. From an early drive to put out ALL wildfires immediately upon discovery to a later appreciation that wildfires are essential to parts of the ecosystem. It's ALWAYS a balance. And it has gone back and forth over the decades.

U.S. Forest Service Fire Suppression - Forest History Society.

 

[Threegoofs]

Logging and controlled burns. You are parading your ignorance.

[h=3]They know how to prevent megafires[/h]Elizabeth Weil, ProRepublica
So what’s it like? “It’s just … well … it’s horrible. Horrible to see this happening when the science is so clear and has been clear for years. I suffer from Cassandra syndrome,” Ingalsbee said. “Every year I warn people: Disaster’s coming. We got to change. And no one listens. And then it happens.”
The pattern is a form of insanity: We keep doing overzealous fire suppression across California landscapes where the fire poses little risk to people and structures. As a result, wildland fuels keep building up.
This week we’ve seen both the second- and third-largest fires in California history. “The fire community, the progressives, are almost in a state of panic,” Ingalsbee said. There’s only one solution, the one we know yet still avoid. “We need to get good fire on the ground and whittle down some of that fuel load.”

Logging and controlled burns are done in California.

Also Oregon.

And Washington.

And Colorado.

And fires exist.

Weirdly enough though... you only blame the California state government.

 

[istodolez]

Logging and controlled burns are done in California.

Also Oregon.

And Washington.

And Colorado.

And fires exist.

Weirdly enough though... you only blame the California state government.

Those of us who actually are living within a couple miles of the fires here and have lived out west here for a while get really tired of hearing know-nothing out East talk about what is wrong out here. I live in a part of the country that probably has the highest per capita rate of forest management experts so I'm guessing we probably have a better understanding of what is going on out here than someone who only had a couple freshmen level intro science classes.

 

[Threegoofs]

Those of us who actually are living within a couple miles of the fires here and have lived out west here for a while get really tired of hearing know-nothing out East talk about what is wrong out here. I live in a part of the country that probably has the highest per capita rate of forest management experts so I'm guessing we probably have a better understanding of what is going on out here than someone who only had a couple freshmen level intro science classes.

But his nephew is a firefighter!

 

[istodolez]

But his nephew is a firefighter!

It's amazing how Jack "knows" things but only because he knows someone who knows something. It's like his understanding of geology!

 

[mike2810]

States have legal authority to manage federal lands within their borders to the extent Congress has given them such authority. As an example, Congress has to a large extent allowed states to exercise management authority over wildlife as a traditional area of state concern. Congress could give states authority to manage certain other activities, resources, or other aspects of federal lands. Congress also could give federal agencies authority to delegate or assign responsibility for aspects of federal land management to states or other partners

State Management of Federal Lands - Federation Of American ...

fas.org › sgp › crs › misc

PDF​

Dec 16, 2016 - overrides conflicting state laws under the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. ... What Is the Authority for the Federal Government to Manage Land, and What Are the ... National Forest System where, and establish periods when, ...

Did you read the article you linked?
Yes, it is true that the State can manage natural resources on public (Federal) lands. It is generally limited to wildlife management and water rights. In general the States do not manage forest health on federal lands. There are cooperative projects done between the feds and state on federal land.

The conditions of our forest can be blamed on Congress for lack of funding and passing more restrictive environmental laws. It can be blamed in part from lawsuits from various groups. In general our forests are overstocked. The lack of harvesting, grazing and the put all fires out have led to the conditions we are in. When we have lack of snowpack/rain, higher temperatures, lower relative humidity and high winds can lead to an explosive situation for fires.

On forums we are all unknowns and what people post about themselves is difficult to verify. Tell your smokejumper relative , thank you for his service. A bit about me. I retired from wildland fire management from a federal agency after 30 years of service. I have a degree in forestry and a ms in wildland fire.

 

[Jack Hays]

-sigh- It would be nice if you would suddenly reveal an awareness of the history of science at some point.

The history of wildfire suppression goes back to the early part of the 20th century. From an early drive to put out ALL wildfires immediately upon discovery to a later appreciation that wildfires are essential to parts of the ecosystem. It's ALWAYS a balance. And it has gone back and forth over the decades.

U.S. Forest Service Fire Suppression - Forest History Society.

Logging and controlled burns are done in California.

Also Oregon.

And Washington.

And Colorado.

And fires exist.

Weirdly enough though... you only blame the California state government.

Those of us who actually are living within a couple miles of the fires here and have lived out west here for a while get really tired of hearing know-nothing out East talk about what is wrong out here. I live in a part of the country that probably has the highest per capita rate of forest management experts so I'm guessing we probably have a better understanding of what is going on out here than someone who only had a couple freshmen level intro science classes.

It's amazing how Jack "knows" things but only because he knows someone who knows something. It's like his understanding of geology!

Your parade of ignorance grows redious.

". . . “What’s it like?” Tim Ingalsbee repeated back to me, wearily, when I asked him what it was like to watch California this past week. In 1980, Ingalsbee started working as a wildland firefighter. In 1995, he earned a doctorate in environmental sociology. And in 2005, frustrated by the huge gap between what he was learning about fire management and seeing on the fire line, he started Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology. Since then FUSEE has been lobbying Congress, and trying to educate anybody who will listen, about the misguided fire policy that is leading to the megafires we are seeing today.

So what’s it like? “It’s just … well … it’s horrible. Horrible to see this happening when the science is so clear and has been clear for years. I suffer from Cassandra syndrome,” Ingalsbee said. “Every year I warn people: Disaster’s coming. We got to change. And no one listens. And then it happens.”

The pattern is a form of insanity: We keep doing overzealous fire suppression across California landscapes where the fire poses little risk to people and structures. As a result, wildland fuels keep building up. At the same time, the climate grows hotter and drier. Then, boom: the inevitable. The wind blows down a power line, or lightning strikes dry grass, and an inferno ensues. This week we’ve seen both the second- and third-largest fires in California history. “The fire community, the progressives, are almost in a state of panic,” Ingalsbee said. There’s only one solution, the one we know yet still avoid. “We need to get good fire on the ground and whittle down some of that fuel load.”. . . "


They know how to prevent megafires

 

[Threegoofs]

Did you read the article you linked?
Yes, it is true that the State can manage natural resources on public (Federal) lands. It is generally limited to wildlife management and water rights. In general the States do not manage forest health on federal lands. There are cooperative projects done between the feds and state on federal land.

The conditions of our forest can be blamed on Congress for lack of funding and passing more restrictive environmental laws. It can be blamed in part from lawsuits from various groups. In general our forests are overstocked. The lack of harvesting, grazing and the put all fires out have led to the conditions we are in. When we have lack of snowpack/rain, higher temperatures, lower relative humidity and high winds can lead to an explosive situation for fires.

On forums we are all unknowns and what people post about themselves is difficult to verify. Tell your smokejumper relative , thank you for his service. A bit about me. I retired from wildland fire management from a federal agency after 30 years of service. I have a degree in forestry and a ms in wildland fire.

Yes, but Jack’s nephew is a firefighter.

Therefore, your prejudice is your prison.

 

[mike2810]

Yes, but Jack’s nephew is a firefighter.

Therefore, your prejudice is your prison.

How am I prejudice. I spent 30 years in wildland fire.

Bet you have not worked fires for a living.

 

[Threegoofs]

How am I prejudice. I spent 30 years in wildland fire.

Bet you have not worked fires for a living.

You don’t understand.

Jacks nephew is a firefighter!

On a top flight team!

Who would know more about public policy considerations for fire suppression on a nationwide scale than that!

Did you know it’s a hot shot team?

That’s very important.

 

[Jack Hays]

You don’t understand.

Jacks nephew is a firefighter!

On a top flight team!

Who would know more about public policy considerations for fire suppression on a nationwide scale than that!

Did you know it’s a hot shot team?

That’s very important.

FYI: "Hot shot team" is a firefighter term, not a compliment. A "hot shot team" goes into crisis points on the fire line or, in the case of smokejumpers, jumps onto newly erupted fire outbreaks. Learn before you post.

 

[mike2810]

You don’t understand.

Jacks nephew is a firefighter!

On a top flight team!

Who would know more about public policy considerations for fire suppression on a nationwide scale than that!

Did you know it’s a hot shot team?

That’s very important.

I understand what a smokejumper is. I also know Jack used some verbiage that was not correct in terms of wildland fire. The same goes for your posts.

I will ask again. What is your experience in wildland fire? i posted mine.

 

[Jack Hays]

Did you read the article you linked?
Yes, it is true that the State can manage natural resources on public (Federal) lands. It is generally limited to wildlife management and water rights. In general the States do not manage forest health on federal lands. There are cooperative projects done between the feds and state on federal land.

The conditions of our forest can be blamed on Congress for lack of funding and passing more restrictive environmental laws. It can be blamed in part from lawsuits from various groups. In general our forests are overstocked. The lack of harvesting, grazing and the put all fires out have led to the conditions we are in. When we have lack of snowpack/rain, higher temperatures, lower relative humidity and high winds can lead to an explosive situation for fires.

On forums we are all unknowns and what people post about themselves is difficult to verify. Tell your smokejumper relative , thank you for his service. A bit about me. I retired from wildland fire management from a federal agency after 30 years of service. I have a degree in forestry and a ms in wildland fire.

Please see the link in #82. You may know the individual being quoted.

 

[mike2810]

Please see the link in #82. You may know the individual being quoted.

Never met him. I know if his work (FUSEE).

 

[Threegoofs]

I understand what a smokejumper is. I also know Jack used some verbiage that was not correct in terms of wildland fire. The same goes for your posts.

I will ask again. What is your experience in wildland fire? i posted mine.

I saw one once.

But I know a guy who knew a guy who’s niece read a book that said the Fresno Fire Department is responsible for the fires on the West Coast.

 

[mike2810]

I saw one once.

But I know a guy who knew a guy who’s niece read a book that said the Fresno Fire Department is responsible for the fires on the West Coast.

Funny,
It is clear you have nothing of importance to add.

Be safe.

 

[Threegoofs]

Funny,
It is clear you have nothing of importance to add.

Be safe.

I do.

You’re just not catching on.

 

[Jack Hays]

Forecasting / Weather
Storm Forecast This Week Could End Some West Coast Wildfires

Last week, computer weather forecast models were hinting at the possibility of a weather system pattern change that could result in significant precipitation for California and the West Coast. While tenuous then, the predictions are firming up now, and it looks like there will be a significant shift in the jet stream, which will put…

 

[Jack Hays]

Gavin Newsom’s Exceedingly Ignorant Climate Claim

Guest post by Jim Steele Scientific evidence reveals there has been no climate effect regards California’s wildfires! None! The data below proves it beyond all doubt. There is no denying that warmer temperatures can cause drier fuels and promote larger fires. But that fact is being misapplied to all wildfires. About 70% of California’s 2020…
Continue reading →

[FONT=&quot]Scientific evidence reveals there has been no climate effect regards California’s wildfires! None! The data below proves it beyond all doubt. There is no denying that warmer temperatures can cause drier fuels and promote larger fires. But that fact is being misapplied to all wildfires. About 70% of California’s 2020 burnt areas have been in grasslands and dead grass is so dry by the end of California’s annual summer drought that dead grasses are totally insensitive to any added warmth from climate change. Dead grasses only require a few hours of warm dry conditions to become highly flammable. It’s fire weather not climate change that is critical. Furthermore, the century trends in local temperatures where California’s biggest fires have occurred reveal no connection to climate change. In most cases the local maximum temperatures have been [/FONT]cooler[FONT=&quot] now than during the 1930s. Those cooler temperatures should reduce the fire danger. Newsom is either ignoring or distorting the scientific evidence, is totally stupid, or is a dishonest demagogue. . . . [/FONT]

 

[Paradoxical]

The causes of the wildfires in California are very complex, and climate change probably plays a background role, although, much like other extreme weather events, one can’t say climate change directly caused a particular fire or even a particular bad or good year for fires.

It’s a long term issue, and one that deniers love to pretend doesn’t exist.

But here’s a nice signal of what is going to come in the US from climate change. Insurance companies are going to assess risks more carefully and just stop insuring properties.

Allstate is a company that has been pretty clear about the increased risks due to climate change.

Climate Change – Allstate

And now, it looks like they’re taking action- just simply not insuring people.

So here you go folks- the consequences of climate change on your pocketbook, which will soon be made much worse by climate denial.

Reality check below:

Allstate is making a business decision. You may not be aware but Allstate does not write any NEW homeowners policies in California anyway. they don't like the liberal business climate in California. I happen to live in a brush area on 5 acres and am happy that State Farm insures me. If not, you have to go to the Fair Plan, which costs more money. I know this. I took a risk. This is what is supposed to happen. If you live in a brush area, you take a risk. I also have earthquake insurance. this is what responsible people do. Government should not rebuild someones house if they build or own in these areas and are not insured. Nor should someone get Cadillac health insurance if they don't pay for it.

But, lets look at WHY there are more fires in California and more homes are burned. First off, people (like me) hate the cities and want to get away from the government caused crime and congestion. So, more homes are built in areas that are prone to fires.

Secondly, fires are usually put out now before they get too far. Centuries ago, they would burn tens of thousands of acres because we didn't have planes and helicopters and thousands of fire fighters putting them out. The result is that brush that isn't burned AS NATURE INTENDED grows to extreme heights and when I fire comes, it is like cans of gasoline sitting there waiting to be ignited.

Thirdly, because of environmentalists, we are not thinning out the forests and dead trees are allowed to stay because envirowhackos want nature to be left as is. The forest snow are a tinder box and humans feign surprise and upset and blame it who? You got it.......Humans and climate change.

We live in a world fraught with danger and if we don't allow nature to take its course, we pay the consequences. The same thing with COVID. We want to live like sardines in condos apartments and high rises and subways and then blame Trump when people die from the flu. People are ignorant and lazy and just believe what the Goebbels of the world feed them without doing a stick of research or thinking.

 

[Moderate Right]

The causes of the wildfires in California are very complex, and climate change probably plays a background role, although, much like other extreme weather events, one can’t say climate change directly caused a particular fire or even a particular bad or good year for fires.

It’s a long term issue, and one that deniers love to pretend doesn’t exist.

But here’s a nice signal of what is going to come in the US from climate change. Insurance companies are going to assess risks more carefully and just stop insuring properties.

Allstate is a company that has been pretty clear about the increased risks due to climate change.

Climate Change – Allstate

And now, it looks like they’re taking action- just simply not insuring people.

So here you go folks- the consequences of climate change on your pocketbook, which will soon be made much worse by climate denial.

Reality check below:

So? Insurers charge more in flood zones. Why shouldn't they charge more in fire prone areas?

 

[Threegoofs]

So? Insurers charge more in flood zones. Why shouldn't they charge more in fire prone areas?

I would hope that they do.

 

[Paradoxical]

So? Insurers charge more in flood zones. Why shouldn't they charge more in fire prone areas?

Those who do insure in high fire risk areas DO charge what is called a brush charge. There is a fire rating bureau that has each area rated using zones depending on brush density with one 10 being highest. A brush charge is the applied depending on what zone you are in. this is fair and reasonable.

Living is a risk and we MIST take risks to live the lives that we want to. This is what liberals fail to understand and why I find believe that many of them are unhappy and angry.

 

[Jack Hays]

Those who do insure in high fire risk areas DO charge what is called a brush charge. There is a fire rating bureau that has each area rated using zones depending on brush density with one 10 being highest. A brush charge is the applied depending on what zone you are in. this is fair and reasonable.

Living is a risk and we MIST take risks to live the lives that we want to. This is what liberals fail to understand and why I find believe that many of them are unhappy and angry.

My late mother lived in Prescott, AZ. Fire Dept. offered a free service every year to cut away brush within a certain distance of her house. Certification this had been done resulted in lower insurance rate.

 

[Paradoxical]

My late mother lived in Prescott, AZ. Fire Dept. offered a free service every year to cut away brush within a certain distance of her house. Certification this had been done resulted in lower insurance rate.

Here in California they can cite you for not clearing it. They are nice about it, though. The overall ratings are for a wider terrain, though. Even someone who clears brush away for 100 feet, a fire can still burn his house down because of high winds generated by the fire will blow embers through the attic vents.