Brain-dead woman must carry fetus to birth because of abortion ban, family says

[hecatmoggie]

Your point is irrelevant as the law determines the unborn are not legal persons with rights regardless if gestational age or stage.
What is the value then? Why won't you answer that simple question?

so if the laws change your opinions/views will change too ? no ?

yeah, I didn't think so ... laws/rules are not what drives your moral compass/rights and wrongs

the value is the same for the living human life before birth as after birth

 

[hecatmoggie]

Where do the laws say "value" or no "value"?
Why can't you explain what you mean by "value"? Continuing the human race or what? Cogs in the machine to keep society running? Mineral content? What is the value you're referring to?
No, because they don't say "value." If they did I'm sure they'd have to explain what they mean, right? Value for the minerals the human body contains? The value of being another human body to round out our military eventually? What value? Why can't you just answer that, so that I can answer you?

why else would the law be in place in one state to protect the unborn and in another state to not? we have laws to protect you and I from others murdering us ... why ? why do you think that it is ? its because human life is valuable.

No, because you straight-up refuse to define what you mean by "valuable." Value to whom and for what? I can't answer you until you tell me what you're talking about.

I'm trying to figure out why you think we have all the laws we do protecting human life .... if its not because its valuable why do you think we have them all ?

 

[hecatmoggie]

Their value to us is what they can do for us. Saving an endangered tiger makes us feel good. Saving a coral reef better ensures our future as a species which relies on a specific ecosystem. You notice we're not rushing to save the e. coli. Right? We assign "value" to what something can do for us, or something or someone we, personally, love. That isn't inherent value. What "value" are any of these things to insects, for example?

lets take serial killers for example - they don't believe the people they kill have any value, right? Those people wasn't doing anything for the serial killers, wasn't making them feel good ... they assigned no value to those lives

are they correct in believing like that?

Again: we feel good if we can keep bald eagles alive because we think "eagle are pretty and magestic, we CAN'T let them die out, especially since we feel guilty for edging them out/changing their required environment." It's not because eagles are somehow inherently valuable, or even directly valuable to us except for how looking at one makes us feel. I mean eagles aren't curing cancer, right?

You notice, as I said, that we're not rushing to save viruses or certain bacteria. Why? Don't you think their biology dictates that they are very, very "valuable" indeed, at least as far as continuing their species?

Keeping the coral reefs alive is critical to oceans remaining the ecosystem that serves us as a species.

None of this is "inherent" value of some kind. It is...what serves us. What makes us feel good. What we believe will keep us safe. What we personally like or love.

I want to thank you for the responses. Unlike others, you're really giving me a lot to think about here and angles on pro-abortion views that's new and different. This is a good discussion
I see your points but coral reefs, bacteria, insects ... they're not humans.

 

[hecatmoggie]

If human beings are inherently valuable, then why can a husband think his wife is absolutely amazing on their wedding day, but five years later he complains that "You just sit around all day while I work, you're useless!"
Did her "inherent value" change? How? Why?

now that hits close to home. I was married for 23 years and my wife did things that I could write a movie about and blow people's minds. Literally a Jekyll and Hyde. I spend a long time trying to figure it out. I hadn't changed, our kids hadn't, our lives really hadn't .... what changed? Were we once valuable to her and later not? How can that happen?

she changed. I didn't. You're very right in that for years, my "value" to her was how she could use me, manipulate me, take advantage of me .... but did MY value change? Who I am a person, my soul, my life value, etc? no, it never did. Every friend we had, every one of my in-laws, every single of my family members. ... every one of them was on my side. Took me a long time to understand SHE changed.

what we're discussion now though is people's actions and how they can make you love them less/value them less or love them more/value them more, right ? You've likely had someone in your life that there was a "falling out" ??? ok .......... are they worth as much dead as they are alive? I mean seriously no ... that's a horrible thing to think isn't it? As horrible as my ex was? her soul, her life, its still of value and I hope she can one day be a good person again. But I'd never say her life isn't valuable, no ...... and again, the way I view her is from her actions/choices

an unborn baby is innocent, has never done anything to anybody with malicious intent ..... just like a newborn

How about a man and his child...on the day the child is born the father is 100% certain that not only is that child valuable, but they are everything. Just everything. 19 years later, that child is stealing from the home and doing drugs and hit his mother for refusing him the car keys. All of a sudden the father decides his child is useless, a waste of space, and harmful. His value in the father's eyes has changed. So how was that value "inherent"? It can change.

see above - that's the results of actions/choices/decisions and you are right, they DO factor in. An unborn baby has done none of those things

Correct. IF you want something.
And if you don't?

I saw this shirt the other day and laughed

View attachment 67577345

Seems like it. That's why "value" is so subjective and personal, and individual.
But if, once again, you could explain what "value" you're talking about, then I could answer your question about fetuses and abortion. I mean I "value" my amazing computer but it's not because my computer is inherently valuable in some indefinable way. It just serves my needs the best.
Neither you nor I, if we're talking about some other woman out there. She (should) get to have her way. In many states, she does.

what if a man 100% sees the value in the unborn and 100% wants that baby for his life ... why doesn't his choice matter ?

 

[Risky Thicket]

The truly brain dead are the religionists who insist that the poor lady carry the baby. All about control the entire antiabortion movement has lost it’s goddamn mind.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Oh I didn’t say that. Certain human lives have value to me. My friends family etc. but I don’t ascribe a value to them and say “ um Sarah , you are pregnant and I value the fertilized egg in you more than your life so I demand you risk your life and health for that fertilized egg no matter what risks your doctor tells you”.
You do. That’s the problem with your concept of “ value” you can’t quantify it, can’t explain it , but certainly in your eyes the unborn have more value than the woman who carries it .
Yet you can’t explain why.

so the most valuable person in your life could have no value to me - and both could be true?

Not allowing abortion does exactly that. And you’ve said your position against abortion is because you value the life of the unborn but yet you ignore the life and health of the mother. Why do you value her less?
Yet by not allowing abortion you value the unborn more than the life and health of the mother.( according to your concept of value such that it is)

apology accepted - I never said your accusation

and no, you're wrong, both can be valuable at the same time

Yes. How can a pregnancy end if she wasn’t pregnant? Duh.

then she killed the unborn with what she did, yes

Not as much as when it’s INSIDE the woman’s body.

but still affected - you were wrong

sure. But they also didn’t believe in the right of self determination as I do.
Tell me. Do you believe if my elderly father is on life support with no chance of recovery. Should the state demand everything be done to keep him alive ?
If not why not if it’s about protecting the right to life.?

the better question is ... does what I think about your father change what his value in life it ?

( my Dad was terminal brain cancer a little over 2 years ago, the second man I watched wither away and die from cancer. I know what you describe, I've lived it)

Exactly. The decision is left to those who can know what’s in the best interest of the person. Just like a woman is in the best position to know what’s best for her and her fertilized egg, embryo or fetus inside her .
Nope. But you know that. You are violating his right to self determination.
see above.

what is this "self determination" ? AI says "Self-determination refers to the ability of individuals or groups to make their own choices and control their own lives. It encompasses the idea of autonomy, where individuals feel in control of their behaviors and goals, and the capacity to act in ways that lead to meaningful change. In the context of international law, self-determination often refers to the right of a people to freely determine their political status and pursue their own economic, social, and cultural development. "

you think a 1 day old baby has that ?

 

[hecatmoggie]

How can there be agreement when you cannot even explaine or define this value? Provide the value first, then we can see if there is agreement or not.

you don't believe human life has value - its not my burden to teach it to you

I can show all the examples where human life is protected in our society and tie it right back to an unborn baby being the same though. You can't argue around that one

 

[The Brad Dad]

lets take serial killers for example - they don't believe the people they kill have any value, right? Those people wasn't doing anything for the serial killers, wasn't making them feel good ... they assigned no value to those lives

That's not why serial killers kill. What you're descring is closer to why folks are fine with the death penalty,, they don't see humanity any longer.

 

[Gordy327]

you don't believe human life has value - its not my burden to teach it to you

I can show all the examples where human life is protected in our society and tie it right back to an unborn baby being the same though. You can't argue around that one

I never said anything about my beliefs or value. You're the one who keeps bringing up value, but you have yet to explain or define it! How can any discussion or agreement regarding value be reached if you can't even explain what this value is? Your "protection" arguments do not explain or establish value. Try again!

so the most valuable person in your life could have no value to me - and both could be true?

That would mean anything determination of "value" is entirely subjective.

and no, you're wrong, both can be valuable at the same time

So what is the value?

 

[Gordy327]

so if the laws change your opinions/views will change too ? no ?

What is the change and rational & legal basis for said change? Unlike some, I examine more than just the surface.

yeah, I didn't think so ... laws/rules are not what drives your moral compass/rights and wrongs

I never said they did.

the value is the same for the living human life before birth as after birth

Thats nice. Prove it! What is the value?

 

[hecatmoggie]

That's not why serial killers kill. What you're descring is closer to why folks are fine with the death penalty,, they don't see humanity any longer.

its a core of why they have no problems killing yes

a serial killer can kill a young 18 years old woman because her life has no value to him

same 18 year old woman is highly valuable to the parents though


which one of them is right in determining the young woman's value?

 

[Gordy327]

its a core of why they have no problems killing yes

a serial killer can kill a young 18 years old woman because her life has no value to him

same 18 year old woman is highly valuable to the parents though


which one of them is right in determining the young woman's value?

That only proves any determination of value is entirely subjective. Just like yours.

 

[hecatmoggie]

I never said anything about my beliefs or value. You're the one who keeps bringing up value, but you have yet to explain or define it! How can any discussion or agreement regarding value be reached if you can't even explain what this value is? Your "protection" arguments do not explain or establish value. Try again!
That would mean anything determination of "value" is entirely subjective.

So what is the value?

their lives are valuable

I know you don't think human life is valuable - you're very clear on that. Most people do though

 

[The Brad Dad]

its a core of why they have no problems killing yes

a serial killer can kill a young 18 years old woman because her life has no value to him

same 18 year old woman is highly valuable to the parents though


which one of them is right in determining the young woman's value?

Why are you asking me if a parents love is better than a serial killer's desire to murder? LOLOL Sir, do you like ice cream or kicks to the face?

 

[The Brad Dad]

their lives are valuable

I know you don't think human life is valuable - you're very clear on that. Most people do though

But as a society we make those value propositions with human lives constantly. Its why young people get to go to war and die vs middle aged working productive people.

 

[Gordy327]

their lives are valuable

I know you don't think human life is valuable - you're very clear on that. Most people do though

What's the value then? Its not about what I think. Im not the one assigning or mentioning value. So your assertion is a lie. Clearly you either cannot or refuse to assign a value. So ypur claims of value are nothing more than empty rhetoric.

 

[hecatmoggie]

What is the change and rational & legal basis for said change? Unlike some, I examine more than just the surface.

I never said they did.

Thats nice. Prove it! What is the value?

all the laws that says we can't allow people to be murdered, we as a society protect human life with social programs, social security, hospitals providing health care, all the churches that have outreach programs/aid, all the cities that have programs to help the needy and hungry and poor people ... gawd we have examples EVERYWHERE on how people are valuable and deserving of life

do you not see any of that ??? seriously ?


WHY do you think all that exists if not because human life is valuable ?

I'd actually think you need to prove human life has no value at all to support your belief to be honest.

 

[Gordy327]

all the laws that says we can't allow people to be murdered, we as a society protect human life with social programs, social security, hospitals providing health care, all the churches that have outreach programs/aid, all the cities that have programs to help the needy and hungry and poor people ... gawd we have examples EVERYWHERE on how people are valuable and deserving of life

do you not see any of that ??? seriously ?


WHY do you think all that exists if not because human life is valuable ?

I'd actually think you need to prove human life has no value at all to support your belief to be honest.

You're the one making affirmative claims of value. So the burden of proof is on you, not me. Your attempt to turn the burden of proof around and making disingenuous remarks are nothing more than cowardly deflections to avoid the fact you cannot back up your claims and are just talking BS! I see it and everyone else here sees it too!

 

[hecatmoggie]

Why are you asking me if a parents love is better than a serial killer's desire to murder? LOLOL Sir, do you like ice cream or kicks to the face?

who gets to determine someone's value of life ? pro-abortion says the woman can have a baby killed ... the Dad can't, but he will have to be forced against his will to financially provide. Also, when the baby is born the woman can no longer determine the baby's life, society/Govt protects it. Oh and also, pro-abortion wants hospitals and medical providers to recognize the baby's value and provide, some have said the Fed Govt needs to provide $$$ and support as well. Why can't they decide?

and then of course a few posters indicate human life has no value except the value we each place on it - meaning you can value someone and I might find zero value in the same person. Who's right?

 

[hecatmoggie]

But as a society we make those value propositions with human lives constantly. Its why young people get to go to war and die vs middle aged working productive people.

a young soldier's life isn't less valuable than a middle aged steel worker or at home mom - do you agree ?

 

[hecatmoggie]

What's the value then? Its not about what I think. Im not the one assigning or mentioning value. So your assertion is a lie. Clearly you either cannot or refuse to assign a value. So ypur claims of value are nothing more than empty rhetoric.

you need to figure all that out on your own Gordy, its no my responsibility to teach you right/wrong, moral/immoral, value of human life/not value of human life

 

[The Brad Dad]

a young soldier's life isn't less valuable than a middle aged steel worker or at home mom - do you agree ?

Sure, but we send them to war to die so clearly we think that life is a little less valuable. Look at our death penalty states. You can argue those folks committed crimes but there is nothing that says they must be killed in order to satisfy anything. Due to feelings some of us insist they must die, and states codify that murder into law so it's legal but still murder, still taking a human life.

 

[hecatmoggie]

You're the one making affirmative claims of value. So the burden of proof is on you, not me. Your attempt to turn the burden of proof around and making disingenuous remarks are nothing more than cowardly deflections to avoid the fact you cannot back up your claims and are just talking BS! I see it and everyone else here sees it too!

I have proved it by showing all the ways in our society human life is valued

you have not shown a single instance of where we don't except for allowing unborn life to be killed in some places and not others

 

[j brown's body]

who gets to determine someone's value of life ? pro-abortion says the woman can have a baby killed ... the Dad can't, but he will have to be forced against his will to financially provide. Also, when the baby is born the woman can no longer determine the baby's life, society/Govt protects it. Oh and also, pro-abortion wants hospitals and medical providers to recognize the baby's value and provide, some have said the Fed Govt needs to provide $$$ and support as well. Why can't they decide?

and then of course a few posters indicate human life has no value except the value we each place on it - meaning you can value someone and I might find zero value in the same person. Who's right?

Fetuses aren't babies.

 

[Gordy327]

who gets to determine someone's value of life ?

Whats the value of life? Who says ypu get to make that determination for anyone else?

pro-abortion says the woman can have a baby killed ... the Dad can't, but he will have to be forced against his will to financially provide.

When dad gets pregnant, he can do the same. But its not his body being used and health or life being affected or risked.

Also, when the baby is born the woman can no longer determine the baby's life, society/Govt protects it. Oh and also, pro-abortion wants hospitals and medical providers to recognize the baby's value and provide, some have said the Fed Govt needs to provide $$$ and support as well. Why can't they decide?

All the more reason to have an abortion sooner.

and then of course a few posters indicate human life has no value except the value we each place on it - meaning you can value someone and I might find zero value in the same person.

You have neither provided any value or any metric of value.