Blunt blades, GPS trackers and longer school hours: The hunt for an answer to Britain's knife-crime

[Simon W. Moon]

So ineffectively targeting guns is more important than stopping killings?

No. But my question was: if guns are being used in killings...is there some other problem with them?

If you don't know the answer to that, how can you know if the pursuit of a homicide free Utopia is more important than the pursuit of a reduction of homicides?

 

[Lursa]

If you don't know the answer to that, how can you know if the pursuit of a homicide free Utopia is more important than the pursuit of a reduction of homicides?

Oh, I have an answer to the question...I was asking you.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Oh, I have an answer to the question...I was asking you.

Why are you expecting an answer to a rhetorical question?

Is you argument like a knock-knock joke?
Does your argument depend on me saying, "Who's there?"

Get the eff on w/ w/e the hell it is you have to say.

 

[Lursa]

Why are you expecting an answer to a rhetorical question?

Is you argument like a knock-knock joke?
Does your argument depend on me saying, "Who's there?"

Get the eff on w/ w/e the hell it is you have to say.

There are concrete answers to the question, "if guns are not being used in killings...is there some other problem with them?"

My answer being, "no, I dont see any other problems with gun ownership, as people use them for:
--hunting
--competition/recreation
--protection
--putting down livestock"

Now...do you have an answer?

 

[Roadvirus]

So, as you admit, they solved any gun violence problem. Thanks for saying that again.

All gun grabbing did was take away a tool. The lunatics just shrugged and found a different one.
The end result is the same (dead people). All that changed was the weapon used to achieve it.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

There are concrete answers to the question, "if guns are not being used in killings...is there some other problem with them?"
My answer being, "no, I dont see any other problems with gun ownership, as people use them for:
--hunting
--competition/recreation
--protection
--putting down livestock"
Now...do you have an answer?

Who's there?


I don't have a problem with private firearm ownership. Full stop.

Sheesh! This sort of **** is ****ing tedious.

 

[Roadvirus]

Not at all. Can you say with a straight face that you wouldn't call the cops if you saw a guy walking around a mall with a big ass sword?

Depends.

Maybe the guy's immortal. Or maybe a time traveler from Medieval times. Gotta keep an open mind.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Not at all. Can you say with a straight face that you wouldn't call the cops if you saw a guy walking around a mall with a big ass sword?

We can do that in my state.

 

[Lursa]

Who's there?


I don't have a problem with private firearm ownership. Full stop.

Sheesh! This sort of **** is ****ing tedious.

Why are you acting like I took this conversation off-topic?

I guess you are one of those people that, when they have no argument, just start diversions.

Nevermind.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

All gun grabbing did was take away a tool. The lunatics just shrugged and found a different one.
The end result is the same (dead people). All that changed was the weapon used to achieve it.

Indeed! It took away the gun 'tool'. Glad we agree that they solved any gun violence problem.

 

[OldFatGuy]

We live in a culture in the US where many believe or accept the myth that the best resolution to problems caused by a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. The Brits have a culture based on an Arthurian myth whereby a good guy with a magical sword will vanquish the bad guy with a sword. The essential problem, along the way to dominance, in both fairytales and myths, people die. Both good people and bad people. Rarely are there grey lines between the two.

Adult American westerns introduced the bar girl (prostitute) with a heart of gold to the equation, best represented in the movie Stagecoach. Instantly popular here and in Europe. Bad guys all over the place, including the good guy, the antihero, who goes off with the blessing of the sheriff to live happily ever after in Mexico with the bar girl.

Life should only be that simplistic.

Arguing over statistics, weapons choices, good vs evil, with no grey ones between the two resolves nothing. One of the reasons for the decline of violent crimes is the arrival of the cell phone. No fighting between rival dealers over turf because cell phones created a home delivery market that bypassed gang controlled turf and competition for that turf. Add in a lost generation from crack and heroin addiction, along with HIV transmission via shared needles and drug induced unsafe sex practices. Drug use is more prevalent than ever before, but heroin is cheap and plentiful today, as is cocaine and crack (a billion dollar street value cocaine seizure in Philadelphia just this past week), and both are competing with prescriptive opioids, even less expensive, and bathtub meth which keeps the price of BJ's down. Gun crimes don't fit these images at all. Instead, emotional reactions to mass killings, still a minor event tho more common than during previous decades, accidental gun deaths for children caused by careless adults, are driving the gun control dialog, as if further gun controls than already exist will make a difference. In the absence of available guns, the mass killers will move on to an alternative, perhaps IEDs from domestic products like detergents, gasoline, mom's garden fertilizer, whatever. Kids will still find ways to kill each other. "Mommy, George push Jamie off the top of the water slide, now he's lying in the pool face down and not moving."

Our kids watch endless shows on TV depicting violence, but they are prohibited from watching Debbie Does Dallas. Of course they will become active shooters or bombers even tho sex is more fun than killing. The Avengers and AOC will fix everything.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Why are you acting like I took this conversation off-topic?
I guess you are one of those people that, when they have no argument, just start diversions.
Nevermind.

Oh. Is that what you're doing?

You know that anyone who cares to can read back through the thread and see for themselves what happened.
fwiw, You making statements about what happened doesn't make any changes to the actual exchange.

 

[jimbo]

Personally, if I had to choose between being attacked with a knife or a gun, I'd choose the knife. I imagine the Brits think likewise.

OTH, if I were going to defend myself against a knife attack, I'd choose the gun.

 

[Lursa]

Oh. Is that what you're doing?

You know that anyone who cares to can read back through the thread and see for themselves what happened.
fwiw, You making statements about what happened doesn't make any changes to the actual exchange.

Exactly, they can.

I dont know why you engaged me if it was only to repeatedly bob and weave around the discussion. Perhaps you bit off more than you could chew and then didnt have the self-esteem to just admit it. But it really seemed more like you couldnt even make the connection between my question and the topic :roll:

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Exactly, they can.
I dont know why you engaged me if it was only to repeatedly bob and weave around the discussion. Perhaps you bit off more than you could chew and then didnt have the self-esteem to just admit it. But it really seemed more like you couldnt even make the connection between my question and the topic :roll:

rest easy.
you have it all figured out.
you got me.

now you can have the last word.

 

[rickc]

I can accomplish more devastating damage to a human being with my Irish blackthorn walking stick than I can with a blade. I normally carry three throwing knives sheathed on my left arm, a kabar folding knife in my right back pocket, and a stiletto strapped in a sheath on my left leg, the right leg reserved for my holstered Beretta. I used to carry a .44 in a shoulder holster, but I prefer to do without the weight as I've aged. Lifetime habits.

Just curious.

Have you ever had to use any of these weapons to defend yourself?

Not being critical. I have had a pistol toters license since i was 18 years old. I am now 64. Always have a gun close at hand. That said never in all those years have i ever felt the need to pull it.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Just curious.

Have you ever had to use any of these weapons to defend yourself?

Not being critical. I have had a pistol toters license since i was 18 years old. I am now 64. Always have a gun close at hand. That said never in all those years have i ever felt the need to pull it.

I prefer not to speak about time in SE Asia, other than as an MP, with the job mostly being protecting our guys when drunk, letting off steam, the goal was to get them back to base, not the brig. A sap came in handy occasionally. Better a mild headache and back on the job than 30 in the brig.

Working NYPD, the shock value of a blade in motion helped even if it did no damage, tho I sliced the tendons in perp's wrist with my Kabar, disarming him. Sounds more dramatic that it was, I was two or 3 inches away from him in a crowded elevator. He never saw it coming, and I preferred to not risk bystanders with my own firearm. I did use batons at times with individuals out of control, breaking up fights. Until my last day on the job I did not have cause to use a firearm. Display was often enough, besides, most police work is cleaning up after the fact. Gun battles are relatively rare, for tv and movies, and when we see coverage today on TV it is the rarity which helps created shock. Most fellow police I encountered never drew their firearms off the range during their careers. Partly because they are out of practice to an extent, rarely battle tested, when in a confrontation requiring use of a firearm and the state of modern weaponry, they over react and pump off rounds. Usually the perp justified the reaction.

My last day on the job, my partner and I were picking up a fellow turning himself in for failure to pay back alimony and child support pursuant to a bench warrant. Not expecting trouble, as my partner and I exited our vehicle, lookouts for a large drug deal going down across the street made us, panicked, open fire with tech 9's. My partner was dead, I was severely wounded in my left leg, on the ground. I couldn't reach my service weapon, somehow pulled my backup from the ankle holster on my right leg, my .44, aimed at a shooter's torso and took his head off before I passed out. I woke on a gurney with EMT staff working on my leg, and giving me morphine as soon as they saw I was awake. Later I learned the details, the shootings lasting only seconds, a passing patrol car responded to the gunfire, called for backup and within minutes, 8 cars from a precinct two blocks away, and during a shift change responded. They sealed the perimeter, more officers arrived and all the perps were arrested. EMT had arrived on site in 3-4 minutes of the back up call, saving my life as I was bleeding out. I spent a month hospitalized, 2 months recovering at home and reporting for physical therapy. I received an honor citation and medical discharge with a partial pension. I never did find out what happened with the guy we were supposed to pick up.

At that time, the NYPD was just moving to 9mm semi auto pistols, to counter the heavier arms used by the drug gangs and other assorted criminals. Most detectives carried their old .38's as back up weapons. My father had gifted me that .44 when I earned my gold shield.

Since then, I've used by Blackthorn to beat young boys, small dogs, and have refrained from doing so with little girls who scare the crap out of me. Once using to smack a mugger who thought I was an easy target while out for an early morning walk. My dog was off the leash and he hadn't noticed Dog. Had he done so, he never would have pulled that stunt. 120 lb dog is usually enough of a deterrent, even if he is a coward and stupid. He would have thought, "someone new to play with." The jerk pulled a small pocket knife, demanded my watch and wallet, I hit him in the throat with the skull crusher handle, left him choking on the ground, took his knife and his wallet. Tossed the wallet in a mail box, dropped the piece of junk knife down a sewer grate, and continued my walk with Dog. Dog had licked his face a few times.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Knife-crime crisis -- Britain scrambles for solutions - CNN



So much for the British way of solving problems by banning things. They ban guns, so people turn to knives to kill each other now.

There's clearly an issue with people killing each other, so do you think things would improve if they had access to firearms as well? A stabbing can turn into a shooting where unintended targets are killed. Controlling violence is a much tougher proposition than just banning weapons; all you achieve with the latter is reducing access to the tools people use to carry out acts of violence.

 

[HonestJoe]

So much for the British way of solving problems by banning things. They ban guns, so people turn to knives to kill each other now.

That is an ignorant misrepresentation of the facts. There has never been any extensive gun culture in the UK and the series of gun control laws, which have been spread over several decades (arguably through the last century), didn’t make a significant impact on the vast majority of citizens day-to-day. There is no rational reason to link the recent increase in knife crime with any kind of gun control measures. There isn’t even a correlation, let alone a connection.

Once you get beyond the trashy headline, the article you linked (but presumably didn’t read) actually does a decent job working though all of the actual likely factors in knife crime (and violent crime in general) and, significantly, some of the systems and policies which are demonstrated to have positive impacts on them. None of them have a thing to do with any blinkered obsessions with gun control though.

 

[JustHanging]

Knife-crime crisis -- Britain scrambles for solutions - CNN



So much for the British way of solving problems by banning things. They ban guns, so people turn to knives to kill each other now.

Hmmmm, from Wikipedia, Mass Shootings in America, in June, 2019:

June 23, 2019 San Jose, California 5[n 1] 0 5 A four-hour standoff ends after a man kills four people then himself.[11]
June 23, 2019 Abbeville, South Carolina 3 1 4 Two people were killed and two were wounded in a shooting at an apartment complex. One of the victims later died at the hospital from their injuries.[12]
June 23, 2019 Columbus, Ohio 0 5 5 Five people were wounded in a drive-by shooting outside of a local motorcycle club.[13]
June 23, 2019 La Jolla, California 1 3 4 One person was killed and three others were injured after a drive-by shooting at a party.[14]
June 23, 2019 South Bend, Indiana 1 10 11 One person was killed and ten were injured after the perpetrator opened fire on a patrons at a local bar.[15]
June 22, 2019 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 0 4 4 Four men were wounded by gunfire in an overnight shooting.[16]
June 22, 2019 Hampton, Virginia 0 4 4 Two adults and two children were injured in a shooting at Buckroe Beach.[17]
June 22, 2019 Baltimore, Maryland 1 4 5 A gunman opened fire on a crowd, killing a 19-year-old man and wounding four others.[18]
June 21, 2019 Saginaw, Michigan 1 3 4 Four people were shot, one fatally, at a house on the city's west side.[19]
June 21, 2019 Richmond, California 0 5 5 Five people were wounded in a drive-by shooting.[20]
June 21, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 0 4[n 2] 4 Four people, including a pregnant woman, were wounded in a shooting outside of the Parkway Garden Homes apartment complex.[21]
June 20, 2019 Allentown, Pennsylvania 0 10 10 Ten people were injured from gunfire outside of a nightclub.[22]
June 18, 2019 Newark, New Jersey 1 6 7 One man was killed and six others were injured after gunfire broke out in two separate locations in the downtown area.[23]
June 17, 2019 San Antonio, Texas 0 4 4 Four people were injured from gunfire, after getting into an altercation with another motorist.[24]
June 17, 2019 Memphis, Tennessee 0 5 5 Five people were wounded in the parking lot of an apartment complex.[25]
June 16, 2019 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 1 7 8 One person was killed and seven were injured at a graduation party. All of the victims are between 15 and 17 years of age.[26]
June 16, 2019 Louisville, Kentucky 1 6 7 Five men and two women were discovered shot near a liquor store by police. One of the men later died at the hospital.[27]
June 16, 2019 Des Moines, Iowa 0 6 6 Six people were shot in a drive-by shooting while standing in the street after a party.[28]
June 15, 2019 Shreveport, Louisiana 0 4 4 Four people were wounded in a drive-by shooting outside of a nightclub.[29]
June 15, 2019 West Des Moines, Iowa 4 0 4 Four relatives, two children and two adults, were found dead from gunshot wounds in a house.[30]
June 12, 2019 Charlotte, North Carolina 1 3 4 An adult male was killed at a party in a rented Airbnb; a teenager and two other adults were injured.[31]
June 11, 2019 Savannah, Georgia 2 2 4 Police responded to a scene and discovered two men deceased and two others injured.[32]
June 11, 2019 Aurora, Colorado 0 4 4 Four people were wounded in an overnight shooting; the victims were self-transported to the hospital for treatment.[33]
June 9, 2019 Henning, Tennessee 1 3 4 One was killed and three others were injured in a shooting at a nightclub.[34]
June 9, 2019 Buffalo, New York 0 4 4 Four people were injured in a shooting after a dispute.[35]
June 9, 2019 Cleveland, Ohio 1 3 4 One person was killed and three wounded, after the perpetrator opened fire on a crowd gathered in Kerruish Park.[36]
June 8, 2019 White Swan, Washington 5 0 5 Five people were killed after the perpetrator opened fire on the Yakama Indian Reservation. The suspect remains at large.[37]
June 8, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 0 4 4 Four people were wounded in the Humbdolt neighborhood after an altercation with the suspect.[38]

=============================================

One month's mass shootings in the USA overflow's DP's character limit....continued in next post.

 

[JustHanging]

Mass Shooting in America, June 2019...continued.

June 7, 2019 Austin, Texas 0 5 5 Five people were taken to the hospital after the suspect fired shots at the ground, indirectly wounding them.[39]
June 6, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 1 3 4 One man was killed and three others wounded when a secondary vehicle pulled up next to vehicle and opened fire on Lake Shore Drive.[40]
June 5, 2019 Santa Rosa, California 0 4 4 A teenager opened fire at a soccer park, wounding an 11-year-old boy and three others.[41]
June 1, 2019 Portsmouth, Virginia 1 3 4 One person was killed and three were critically injured in an overnight shooting.[42]
June 1, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 0 4 4 An adult male and three teenagers were wounded in a shooting in the Austin community of Chicago.[43]
June 1, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 0 4 4 Four men were wounded in two separate locations near Northwestern University's Gold Coast campus.[44]
June 1, 2019 Atlanta, Georgia 0 5 5 Police discovered three individuals wounded after responding to a shooting; an additional two were transported via personal vehicles to the hospital.[45]
June 1, 2019 Macon, Georgia 0 4 4 Three men and a woman were injured after a suspect opened fire at a block party.[46]
June 1, 2019 Allendale, South Carolina 0 5 5 Five men were wounded in a shooting at a car wash.[47]



Hmmmm, from Wikipedia, Mass Knifings in Britain, in June, 2019:

....crickets....



Yep, so much for that. Who doesn't like mass shootings on a daily basis?

Should we compare school shootings next? Americans are awfully good at killing at innocent children, do you think the Brits are up to the challenge?

 

[Phys251]

Your silly little deflection fails, because the OP is about the UK's rising violent crime stats, which means banning stuff like guns isnt really an answer.

You can spam all the charts you want to fabricate your personal narrative, but you really fail by implying that we believe that gun restrictions are the only answer. Reduction in poverty and "petty" domestic violence can go a long way as well, and it's worth noting that Republicans and the NRA oppose such measures.

And I stand by my comment that given no other choice, I'd rather take my chances against a knife than a gun. Melee weapons are easier to escape!

 

[Phys251]

One month's mass shootings in the USA overflow's DP's character limit....continued in next post.

Mass Shooting in America, June 2019...continued.

June 7, 2019 Austin, Texas 0 5 5 Five people were taken to the hospital after the suspect fired shots at the ground, indirectly wounding them.[39]
June 6, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 1 3 4 One man was killed and three others wounded when a secondary vehicle pulled up next to vehicle and opened fire on Lake Shore Drive.[40]
June 5, 2019 Santa Rosa, California 0 4 4 A teenager opened fire at a soccer park, wounding an 11-year-old boy and three others.[41]
June 1, 2019 Portsmouth, Virginia 1 3 4 One person was killed and three were critically injured in an overnight shooting.[42]
June 1, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 0 4 4 An adult male and three teenagers were wounded in a shooting in the Austin community of Chicago.[43]
June 1, 2019 Chicago, Illinois 0 4 4 Four men were wounded in two separate locations near Northwestern University's Gold Coast campus.[44]
June 1, 2019 Atlanta, Georgia 0 5 5 Police discovered three individuals wounded after responding to a shooting; an additional two were transported via personal vehicles to the hospital.[45]
June 1, 2019 Macon, Georgia 0 4 4 Three men and a woman were injured after a suspect opened fire at a block party.[46]
June 1, 2019 Allendale, South Carolina 0 5 5 Five men were wounded in a shooting at a car wash.[47]



Hmmmm, from Wikipedia, Mass Knifings in Britain, in June, 2019:

Zero.



Yep, so much for that. Who doesn't like mass shootings on a daily basis?

Should we compare school shootings next? American's are awfully good at killing at innocent children, do you think the Brits are up to the challenge?

Makes one wonder how "pro-life" the Republicans really are. :?

 

[AlbqOwl]

I asked you a question. What is London's murder rate?

May I answer with this?

LONDON -- A surge of stabbings in London was blamed Monday for the city overtaking New York's monthly murder tally for the first time in modern history. Fifteen people were murdered in London during February, compared to 14 in New York, according to police figures.

The British capital also suffered 22 fatal stabbings and shootings in March, higher than the 21 in New York. There have been 10 fatal stabbings in London in the last 19 days, following on from the 80 fatal stabbings recorded in the city last year. . .​

London murder rate higher than New York City for first time ever in March amid surging knife and gun crime - CBS News

However that is just two months and generally London does not equal New York City in violent crime and New York City is rarely listed among the USA's most violent and/or deadly cities. And crime across most of America and the UK have been dropping over the years with or without gun control.

And none of that changes the fact that those intent on committing murder and mayhem will find a way to do that with or without guns.

 

[PoS]

That is an ignorant misrepresentation of the facts. There has never been any extensive gun culture in the UK and the series of gun control laws, which have been spread over several decades (arguably through the last century), didn’t make a significant impact on the vast majority of citizens day-to-day. There is no rational reason to link the recent increase in knife crime with any kind of gun control measures. There isn’t even a correlation, let alone a connection.

Once you get beyond the trashy headline, the article you linked (but presumably didn’t read) actually does a decent job working though all of the actual likely factors in knife crime (and violent crime in general) and, significantly, some of the systems and policies which are demonstrated to have positive impacts on them. None of them have a thing to do with any blinkered obsessions with gun control though.

Tell that to the countless Brits in this forum who regularly claim that the UK is a peaceful utopia because of its stringent gun control laws.

You can spam all the charts you want to fabricate your personal narrative, but you really fail by implying that we believe that gun restrictions are the only answer. Reduction in poverty and "petty" domestic violence can go a long way as well, and it's worth noting that Republicans and the NRA oppose such measures.

Those charts are based on facts since I got them directly from CNN and Pew Research, so its too bad if reality proves you wrong. The US is getting safer while the UK is getting more violent.