Blunt blades, GPS trackers and longer school hours: The hunt for an answer to Britain's knife-crime

[SLC]

I'd rather not die at all. A knife is far easier to outrun than a bullet.

And easier to conceal and quiter to use.

 

[OldFatGuy]

I asked you a question. What is London's murder rate?

London shows 123 murders for 2018, 471 homicides, none listed not resolved in the courts. It's all in the accounting. Under British law, murder is defined as premeditated homicide. Domestic violence calls for police have risen exponentially during the past decade, and violent deaths, crimes of passion, rising from domestic violence incidents are classified as homicides, not murder. If such homicides are not adjudicated, pursuant to decisions by prosecutors, they are not included in the statistics.

 

[Phys251]

London shows 123 murders for 2018, 471 homicides, none listed not resolved in the courts. It's all in the accounting. Under British law, murder is defined as premeditated homicide. Domestic violence calls for police have risen exponentially during the past decade, and violent deaths, crimes of passion, rising from domestic violence incidents are classified as homicides, not murder. If such homicides are not adjudicated, pursuant to decisions by prosecutors, they are not included in the statistics.

Thank you. PoS, see how hard that was?

Indeed, part of the problem comparing UK murder rates or homicide rates to ours is the apples-and-oranges comparison. But for the sake of argument let's take the higher, 471 number. With nearly 8.9 million residents, that comes to a homicide rate of 5.3/100k. Not great, but nowhere near the high-crime cities in America such as Gary, Indiana, and St. Louis, Missouri. We also don't yet know if this is the new normal for London or just part of a crime wave. Again this is with the higher number; the lower comes to just 1.4/100k.

 

[OldFatGuy]

I can accomplish more devastating damage to a human being with my Irish blackthorn walking stick than I can with a blade. I normally carry three throwing knives sheathed on my left arm, a kabar folding knife in my right back pocket, and a stiletto strapped in a sheath on my left leg, the right leg reserved for my holstered Beretta. I used to carry a .44 in a shoulder holster, but I prefer to do without the weight as I've aged. Lifetime habits.

 

[Mr Person]

Knife-crime crisis -- Britain scrambles for solutions - CNN



So much for the British way of solving problems by banning things. They ban guns, so people turn to knives to kill each other now.

I'd much rather go up against a knife than a gun.

:shrug:

At any rate, arguments that if thing A does not resolve something 100%, nothing should be done, are incredibly foolish. No law is perfect. That no law completely prevents what it's aimed at is no reason to not have the law. Reality isn't all or nothing, black or white.

 

[HenryChinaski]

you are joking correct?

About society setting rules about what you can personally carry in public? No. I can't carry a 10 inch Rambo knife in public or a ninja sword. Those are reasonable rules set by society.

 

[Trump]

About society setting rules about what you can personally carry in public? No. I can't carry a 10 inch Rambo knife in public or a ninja sword. Those are reasonable rules set by society.

OK how bout a 20 oz framing hammer?

 

[OldFatGuy]

Thank you. PoS, see how hard that was?

Indeed, part of the problem comparing UK murder rates or homicide rates to ours is the apples-and-oranges comparison. But for the sake of argument let's take the higher, 471 number. With nearly 8.9 million residents, that comes to a homicide rate of 5.3/100k. Not great, but nowhere near the high-crime cities in America such as Gary, Indiana, and St. Louis, Missouri. We also don't yet know if this is the new normal for London or just part of a crime wave. Again this is with the higher number; the lower comes to just 1.4/100k.

I happen to have those numbers handy for other reasons. Comparatively, NYC, with a similar population size to London, experienced 273 murders during 2018, no delineation for murder as opposed to homicide, and entered into the statistical databases upon discovery.

A decade of exponential expansion is certainly a long enough time period to assess new standards.

Ultimately all your posturing must face the reality that people who kill enjoy killing other people. And no juggling of numbers means anything in the face of that reality.

 

[trixare4kids]

Thank you. PoS, see how hard that was?

Indeed, part of the problem comparing UK murder rates or homicide rates to ours is the apples-and-oranges comparison. But for the sake of argument let's take the higher, 471 number. With nearly 8.9 million residents, that comes to a homicide rate of 5.3/100k. Not great, but nowhere near the high-crime cities in America such as Gary, Indiana, and St. Louis, Missouri. We also don't yet know if this is the new normal for London or just part of a crime wave. Again this is with the higher number; the lower comes to just 1.4/100k.

The real point you are missing: Britain's murder rate at highest level in a decade, official figures reveal
whereas the murder rate in The U.S. continues to decline. U.S. Murder Rate for 2018 Is on Track for a Big Drop - The New York Times

Glad I could help.

 

[apdst]

Well, OK. So you're saying they're actually aren't killing each other w/guns?

Sorta sounds like they solved a gun issue.

They didn't solve anything. They just replaced it with a new problem.

 

[PoS]

Thank you. PoS, see how hard that was?

Indeed, part of the problem comparing UK murder rates or homicide rates to ours is the apples-and-oranges comparison. But for the sake of argument let's take the higher, 471 number. With nearly 8.9 million residents, that comes to a homicide rate of 5.3/100k. Not great, but nowhere near the high-crime cities in America such as Gary, Indiana, and St. Louis, Missouri. We also don't yet know if this is the new normal for London or just part of a crime wave. Again this is with the higher number; the lower comes to just 1.4/100k.

Your silly little deflection fails, because the OP is about the UK's rising violent crime stats, which means banning stuff like guns isnt really an answer.

As opposed to decreasing crime in the US, despite not having a ban on guns:

So your narrative fails. Again.

I'd much rather go up against a knife than a gun.

:shrug:

Thats up to you...

At any rate, arguments that if thing A does not resolve something 100%, nothing should be done, are incredibly foolish.

Um, what? Who is saying that? All Im saying is that bans dont work.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Britain's crime rate will probably become exponentially greater if a no deal Brexit ensues in October.

Crime rates usually increase in relation to a jarring economic downturn which is what a crash-out Brexit will generate.

An economic/social disaster just waiting to happen.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

They didn't solve anything. They just replaced it with a new problem.

So, as you admit, they solved any gun violence problem. Thanks for saying that.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

London Municipal Police now has a gun squad. Slightly more than 3k deployments during 2018, in response to gun crimes. The trend of gun crime averaging a 12% increase each year over the prior decade. Approximately half of the LMP is now trained for deploying guns.

These trends are consistent with the entire nation with the exception of Northern Ireland where all police carry guns.

Close behind the use of blades for violent crimes is the use of the traditional truncheon, a small piece of wood with a leather wrapped lead or iron ball mounted on the end. Here in the states we call such tools of the trade, saps. And ours usually have ball bearings encased in leather. In my dad's day, every member of the NYPD carried one, and was schooled in the use of a rolled up NYT which left no marks. The LMP fellows still use the London Times.

Violence and murder are part of the human condition. It is a problem which cannot be solved, perhaps minimized, but not solved.

In Singapore, one of the world's largest cities with the lowest amount of violent crimes per capita, Police carry a revolver, and a automatic pistol, and are authorized to beat violent suspects to death with batons upon apprehension. They have a reputation for doing so, methodically and slowly, inflicting as much pain as possible.

Throughout the world, accounting methods for violent crimes vary, often not cited for statistical purposes until a crime has been resolved in the courts.

So, IOW, they don't really have a gun violence problem. They addressed it.

These four countries have nearly eliminated gun deaths - here's what the US can learn | The Independent

 

[Tanngrisnir]

But not the murder issue.

Never claimed that they did. No nation has ever solved that issue.

 

[Lursa]

Well, OK. So you're saying they're actually aren't killing each other w/guns?

Sorta sounds like they solved a gun issue.

So ineffectively targeting guns is more important than stopping killings?

IMO it's ridiculous to ignore a failure because then you never get to the root of a problem.

We should observe and learn. It's obvious other factors cause killing...societal ones, personal ones...not implements.

 

[mrdeltoid]

OK how bout a 20 oz framing hammer?

Some carry balpeen hammers as they are not considered a deadly weapon. For the record, I don’t carry one.

 

[mrdeltoid]

OK how bout a 20 oz framing hammer?

How bout a 28 oz. Estwing waffle head!! It sure made a mess of my thumb!

 

[HenryChinaski]

OK how bout a 20 oz framing hammer?

What's the intended purpose of a sword? What's the intended use of a hammer? If this needs to be explained to you, then there's no point.

 

[Waddy]

London Municipal Police now has a gun squad. Slightly more than 3k deployments during 2018, in response to gun crimes. The trend of gun crime averaging a 12% increase each year over the prior decade. Approximately half of the LMP is now trained for deploying guns.

These trends are consistent with the entire nation with the exception of Northern Ireland where all police carry guns.

Close behind the use of blades for violent crimes is the use of the traditional truncheon, a small piece of wood with a leather wrapped lead or iron ball mounted on the end. Here in the states we call such tools of the trade, saps. And ours usually have ball bearings encased in leather. In my dad's day, every member of the NYPD carried one, and was schooled in the use of a rolled up NYT which left no marks. The LMP fellows still use the London Times.

Violence and murder are part of the human condition. It is a problem which cannot be solved, perhaps minimized, but not solved.

In Singapore, one of the world's largest cities with the lowest amount of violent crimes per capita, Police carry a revolver, and a automatic pistol, and are authorized to beat violent suspects to death with batons upon apprehension. They have a reputation for doing so, methodically and slowly, inflicting as much pain as possible.

Throughout the world, accounting methods for violent crimes vary, often not cited for statistical purposes until a crime has been resolved in the courts.

Around here we call them "slappers". I carry one at times. Got it from a retired uncle who was a cop. BTW; you're right about the statistics; some countries don't include suicide in their murder rates. The US does. Makes it very difficult to get a true picture across countries.

 

[Lursa]

What's the intended purpose of a sword? What's the intended use of a hammer? If this needs to be explained to you, then there's no point.

Is there something wrong with an intended purpose of protection?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

So ineffectively targeting guns is more important than stopping killings?

Idk if that in particular is "more important".

But it seems a reduction in homicides is generally a worthwhile achievement even if the goal were to be the prevention all homicides.
Not sure if the prevention of all homicides was the stated goal of w/e Britain has got going on in re guns.
Did Britain say that they expected w/e gun system they have going on to eliminate all homicides?
If not, their goal may have been something else like merely a reduction of homicides
[ imho preventing 100% of homicides may not be an achievable goal ever. ymmv ]

If fewer people are victims of homicide because homicide is more difficult, that benefit is not lost nor canceled out because *all* homicides were not prevented.

IMO, it's ridiculous to ignore success on your way to the root of the problem.

IMO it's ridiculous to ignore a failure because then you never get to the root of a problem.
We should observe and learn. It's obvious other factors cause killing...societal ones, personal ones...not implements.

This is an important area of concern.
Ideally, people would never be sufficiently motivated to commit homicide.

This would be a nice situation.
I am unsure of how realistic of a goal that is though.
Ostensibly, homicide appeared rather early in our history and has never left the human race since.

[ The questions surrounding how much violence and homicide is tolerable given the various multi-dimensional costs of preventing it is a different discussion. ]

 

[OldFatGuy]

So, IOW, they don't really have a gun violence problem. They addressed it.

These four countries have nearly eliminated gun deaths - here's what the US can learn | The Independent

Obviously, it hasn't sunk in for you, statistics can lie. Whether or not violent death comes from a bullet, a bomb, a blade, hands, a paperclip, the numbers bring no one back to life. Japan is experiencing an enormous increase of murder suicides among post age 50 couples. The weapons of choice, drain cleaner laced with arsenic or cyanide, warfarin (the heart medication used as rat poison), kitchen knives. Please pass the kimchi.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Obviously, it hasn't sunk in for you, statistics can lie. Whether or not violent death comes from a bullet, a bomb, a blade, hands, a paperclip, the numbers bring no one back to life. Japan is experiencing an enormous increase of murder suicides among post age 50 couples. The weapons of choice, drain cleaner laced with arsenic or cyanide, warfarin (the heart medication used as rat poison), kitchen knives. Please pass the kimchi.

What's not sunk in here is that you cannot demonstrate that any statistics are 'lying' here, but it's fun to watch you try and make that somehow, magically, relevant.

Japanese suicide rates?

What about Volvo transmissions?

Mustard, perhaps?

 

[Trump]

What's the intended purpose of a sword? What's the intended use of a hammer? If this needs to be explained to you, then there's no point.

slippery slope that is