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Bitcoin

And there is the rub...
Yes, and apropos to this forum because this is where money ideas become political.

But there are many people on the Earth that believe the Austrian system is superior to the Keynesian system.

Obviously, this is a subtopic that's very fertile for discussion and debate.

But I would just say this, I don't think that we've ever had a good run at using an Austrian-based economic system. Of course, one of the great arguments is that people will hoard the hard money and never spend it and so on.

I believe this is not true. But I'm glad that Bitcoin is giving us our first shot at seeing how it might look.
 
As institutional investors use their collective power to manipulate BTC, small predictable moves in value can and will be used to extract value from those without similar power.
I agree with this and it is unfortunate, but I also think it can work itself out over time. We disagree on free (or lawless as you call them) markets evidently as well, but I do think a free market will solve these problems.

Currently, the ETFs are potentially attack vectors in exactly what you describe. Most Bitcoin being acquired by the ETFs are being acquired over the counter privately. This gives the big operators like BlackRock an incentive to manipulate the price oracles of the retail exchanges, which they can definitly do.

But there are laws and regulations around digital currencies and Bitcoin in particular. BlackRock, for example, must hold one for one Bitcoin in custody for every Bitcoin amount of Ibit shares they sell. So, these markets are not lawless, but I agree with you, they can have game theoretical exploits.
 
You could not be more wrong about this in my opinion.
😆

Bitcoin's generation mechanism and security mechanism is pure energy.
No, it isn't. It's a computer consuming huge amounts of electricity, in a horribly inefficient manner, to keep track of entries in a distributed database.

So, many would propose that Bitcoin derives its initial value from the input of energy.
Then those "many" are idiots who don't know what they are talking about.

There is no inherent value to any cryptocurrency because... there is no inherent value to ANY fiat currency. That's the definition of a fiat currency.

Since you missed it: The value of a newly minted BTC is based on the current market value of that BTC. Nothing in its algorithm adjusts for the cost of the electricity, or computer equipment, or any other inputs.

For example, it cost around $900 to mine 1 BTC in 2017; today, it costs $88,000. Does one BTC that was mined in 2017 have a lower value than one mined today, because it required less electricity? Nope.

Or: Let's say you spend $88,000 to mine 1 BTC last week, and today the price of BTC crashes to $10,000. What is the value of the BTC you mined last week? Is it $88,000? Nope. That BTC's value is based exclusively on the exchange rate, and it doesn't matter how much it cost someone to mine it.

I recommend you stop insisting that BTC is not what it is, kthx.
 
I do think a free market will solve these problems.
How? Give me a real world example where free market fixed something that a regulated market could not.

But there are many people on the Earth that believe the Austrian system is superior to the Keynesian system.
I know you're not claiming that belief has anything to do with the truth of something.

I've sat though hours and hours of lectures and debates on Austrian Econ. If I were to sum up it's biggest problem is its strong reliance on a priori reasoning (praxeology) and its skepticism towards empirical methods, mathematical modeling, and statistical analysis common in modern economics. This fact limits its ability to be rigorously tested or falsified, making its theories less adaptable to empirical evidence and difficult to integrate with policy frameworks that demand quantifiable predictions and empirical validation.

Don't get me wrong, apriori reasoning isn't always bad. I think there are some things we can assume, but I'd like to see a little more empirical data. The result in the real world in my experience is anything that doesn't work, isn't the result of Austrian practices. Sort of a No True Scotsman fallacy.


I believe this is not true. But I'm glad that Bitcoin is giving us our first shot at seeing how it might look.
What problem/s of the current system do you see as unresolvable, that only Austrian theories and BTC (or something similar) could solve?
 
there are many people on the Earth that believe the Austrian system is superior to the Keynesian system.
Yes, they are usually called "idiots."

But I would just say this, I don't think that we've ever had a good run at using an Austrian-based economic system.
😆 😆 😆

I believe this is not true. But I'm glad that Bitcoin is giving us our first shot at seeing how it might look.
Yeah? Funny, because it looks like a total disaster to me.

Crypto is useless as a currency.
The endless speculation on crypto guarantees that it's useless as a currency.
Crypto is only useful for illegal transactions and money laundering.
Crypto is a fever swamp of fraud.

If you don't understand the above, despite extensive discussions here (and I'm sure elsewhere), then you really don't have any idea what you're messing with.
 
😆


No, it isn't. It's a computer consuming huge amounts of electricity, in a horribly inefficient manner, to keep track of entries in a distributed database.
The energy use has nothing to do with, as you say, keeping track of entries in a distributed database. Ultimately, what it does is makes it too expensive for actors to collude and cheat.
Then those "many" are idiots who don't know what they are talking about.
Well, this list of idiots is growing very quickly and has some fairly smart people on it. Larry Fink for one, or Ricardo Salinas.

These men are not idiots, even if you disagree with them.
Since you missed it: The value of a newly minted BTC is based on the current market value of that BTC. Nothing in its algorithm adjusts for the cost of the electricity, or computer equipment, or any other inputs.
You may be forgetting about Bitcoin's difficulty adjustment algorithm.
For example, it cost around $900 to mine 1 BTC in 2017; today, it costs $88,000. Does one BTC that was mined in 2017 have a lower value than one mined today, because it required less electricity? Nope.

Or: Let's say you spend $88,000 to mine 1 BTC last week, and today the price of BTC crashes to $10,000. What is the value of the BTC you mined last week? Is it $88,000? Nope. That BTC's value is based exclusively on the exchange rate, and it doesn't matter how much it cost someone to mine it.
I don't think this is a black or white thing. I think the production cost of Bitcoin sets an initial floor for its value. The price and the cost to produce it are in a symbiotic relationship. If the price falls, then miners get turned off and the cost to mine Bitcoin becomes less. So these two things track together. People have been in disagreement for years, which one leads the other, but they are definitely connected.
I recommend you stop insisting that BTC is not what it is, kthx.
I recommend avoiding using snarky, trollish comments like that if you want to have a discussion with me.

And I don't mind if you don't want to.
 
Crypto is useless as a currency.
The endless speculation on crypto guarantees that it's useless as a currency.
Crypto is only useful for illegal transactions and money laundering.
Crypto is a fever swamp of fraud.
I'm sure I've said this before to you, but I do not consider crypto and Bitcoin to be the same thing.

I agree with you that crypto in general is garbage.

But you're above statements if applied to Bitcoin just are wrong.

BlackRock finds Bitcoin useful enough as a value store to offer an ETF for it. It has been their most successful and fastest growing ETF product ever. This is a legal use that has nothing to do with money laundering or crime. ( I am not really a fan of the ETFs personally.).

I believe the last I looked they owned somewhere around 700,000 Bitcoin now. That is 3% of the total.

And criminals who use Bitcoin are discovering over time that it just makes the job of law enforcement much easier because Bitcoin is fully open and every transaction is traceable.
 
Bitcoin's generation mechanism and security mechanism is pure energy. The name of the function it uses, designed by a cryptographer named Adam Back, is "proof of work". And this is a good name since energy is fundamentally what work is made of.
If BTC's value were extrinsically linked to the value of energy, you might have an argument, but Visbek did a pretty good job of dismantling your argument demonstrating how the amount of energy available to purchase with 1 BTC is in no way linked to the value of BTC. Therefore BTC is not energy any more than I am Diet Coke, despite my addiction.

If 1 BTC could always purchase a fixed amount of energy (or at least an amount in a very narrow range) then BTC would be extrinsically linked to something of intrinsic value providing a price anchor. There are significant problems with this idea, but I'd argue that it's better than what it is now.

The problem that most people utterly fail to comprehend is that in order to have a stable economy the demand for productivity needs to be in some relation to the availability of money that can be used to consume it.

The other problem of BTC and other fixed quantities of money like gold is that it cannot be created, it must be possessed in the real world before it can be spent. You likely think that's a feature, not a bug, but I doubt you realize the problem that it creates.

In the fiat economy productivity is the limitation of money creation (modified by inflation).

Quick sidebar.

When you or I spend on a credit card, we are creating money. When we take out a loan from a Fed member bank, we are creating money. Individuals are really selling a security to a bank to take a loan (the document you sign to take the loan). We can securitize our loans with our property or the promise of future payment represented by our capacity to make money. It's a whole interconnected system that makes our system highly efficient in ways that will only become obvious when it's gone.

Ok, this matters because it allows producers to make goods and services to sell for money that's not been created yet. A producer can take a loan (the same way an individual does) and use the loan to make, for example a car. The fact that I can create money though securitization assures the car company that wants to sell the car, that the sale is not limited to money in circulation.

Back to it.

Thus, most fiat money get's it's value from the productivity that justified it's creation as most loans are made to either make or purchase something of real value. The system of money creation between the government and bank money creation (which is really money created as credit) in turn creates webs of interdependency and shared risk and thus shared interest in maintaining and ensuring the stability and integrity of our system of money.

If the economy does poorly, fewer loans are created which will eventually result in a slowdown of real things being created. Despite most people's understanding, money is not thrown from helicopters, but is often created to facilitate the creation of real goods, which in turn requires real labor which pays salaries.

BTC does none of that. The amount of coins is entirely arbitrary. There is no system designed to maintain value and reduce fluctuations. The result in a BTC (or similar) economy would large price fluctuations (and labor is a price, salary) as the result of the business cycle. There would also be more creative destruction in a BTC economy.

With fiat, the stability of prices (and salaries) is what is emphasized and businesses cycles result in periods of higher or lower deficit or the expansion or contraction of the money supply.
 
The energy use has nothing to do with, as you say, keeping track of entries in a distributed database.
Uh, hello? Bitcoin operates on a blockchain, which is... a distributed database.

The "work" performed by Bitcoin miners is basically maintaining the blockchain, encrypting and tracking transactions, and so forth.

What, you think the work done by BTC miners is completely worthless...?


Ultimately, what it does is makes it too expensive for actors to collude and cheat.
Oh. So I guess you DO understand that the miners are... keeping track of entries in a distributed database. :D

In one sense, you are correct, in that miners are performing cryptographic hashes which keep the ledger secure.

In another sense, you're living in a fantasy world, because it's still very easy for "actors to collude and cheat." They just don't usually do it by hacking the encryption.

Well, this list of idiots is growing very quickly and has some fairly smart people on it.
"Holding Bitcoin" does not mean they believe that Bitcoin has an "initial value." If anything, it almost certainly means they believe they can make someone else the Greater Fool.

These men are not idiots, even if you disagree with them.
Sir Isaac Netwon was, obviously, far more intelligent than I am.

He still thought he could find a stone that would turn lead into gold.

You may be forgetting about Bitcoin's difficulty adjustment algorithm.
I'm not. The difficulty adjustment algorithm is not based on the cost of electricity. It's based on the total amount of computing resources dedicated to mining.

I think the production cost of Bitcoin sets an initial floor for its value. The price and the cost to produce it are in a symbiotic relationship. If the price falls, then miners get turned off and the cost to mine Bitcoin becomes less. So these two things track together.
Or....

Since you missed it, the price of electricity can vary significantly from one location to the next. E.g. the average price of electricity right now in the US is $0.13/kWh, and in Mexico it's $0.10/kWh. But the price of a BTC mined today in Arizona is the same price as one mined in Nogales.

Hilariously, your scenario gets it backwards. You didn't posit a situation where a change in the cost of energy discouraged miners, and thus reduced the price of BTC. You cited an example where the price of the BTC falls. The production cost didn't change. Right...?

And again. There is no floor to the price of any crypto, therefore there is no "initial floor" to its value. Yes?
 
Uh, hello? Bitcoin operates on a blockchain, which is... a distributed database.
Yes, probably one of the worst databases ever invented except for this exact purpose. I wasn't making that argument.
The "work" performed by Bitcoin miners is basically maintaining the blockchain, encrypting and tracking transactions, and so forth.
Just about every detail in that statement is incorrect. You are getting miners and nodes confused. Miners run nodes, but nodes are the one that do the works that you're listing up there. And the blockchain is not encrypted. .
What, you think the work done by BTC miners is completely worthless...?
No, I think it's worth quite a bit.
Oh. So I guess you DO understand that the miners are... keeping track of entries in a distributed database. :D
Again, not really. Nodes are doing this. And again, miners run nodes, but every node is doing this, mining or not.
In one sense, you are correct, in that miners are performing cryptographic hashes which keep the ledger secure.
Yes, that is correct.
In another sense, you're living in a fantasy world, because it's still very easy for "actors to collude and cheat." They just don't usually do it by hacking the encryption.
When it comes to the protocol itself and the consensus mechanism, you just can't cheat it. Well, no one has been able to figure out how in 15 years at least. That's what I'm talking about. Of course, you can do things to manipulate the price of Bitcoin or other things. That happens in every market. For example, BlackRock and part of the government could be colluding where BlackRock isn't actually storing any Bitcoin or is just pretending to, and thus they're making paper Bitcoin with their ETFs, which will suppress the price. That could be happening, that's cheating, and it is possible. But it doesn't have anything to do with the network or the protocol and it's consensus.
"Holding Bitcoin" does not mean they believe that Bitcoin has an "initial value." If anything, it almost certainly means they believe they can make someone else the Greater Fool.
Well, this is at the crux of our argument, because I am either correct, or I am the greatest fool, because I'm not holding Bitcoin as an investment. I'm storing my life savings in it.
I'm not. The difficulty adjustment algorithm is not based on the cost of electricity. It's based on the total amount of computing resources dedicated to mining.
I agree on the basic statement technically, but when the price to mine Bitcoin becomes unprofitable for the miner, then they turn off their machines, which makes the amount of energy that has to be spent to mine a block less for the entire network.
Or....

Since you missed it, the price of electricity can vary significantly from one location to the next. E.g. the average price of electricity right now in the US is $0.13/kWh, and in Mexico it's $0.10/kWh. But the price of a BTC mined today in Arizona is the same price as one mined in Nogales.
This is why Bitcoin mining incentivizes the development of renewable energy, helps balance power grids, uses stranded energy, and so on, because miners are going to want to get the least expensive energy they can. And in Texas, this is a resulted in new solar and wind farms, which can have a base buyer of first resort, so to speak.
Hilariously, your scenario gets it backwards. You didn't posit a situation where a change in the cost of energy discouraged miners, and thus reduced the price of BTC. You cited an example where the price of the BTC falls. The production cost didn't change. Right...?
Well, it's really more complicated than that, because it's a relationship between the price of the energy, the price of Bitcoin, and the miners' business tolerance for being able to work at a loss.

So it is not right to say that the production cost didn't change. It does change because when it becomes too expensive for miners, they turn off their machines and the production cost drops.

And again. There is no floor to the price of any crypto, therefore there is no "initial floor" to its value. Yes?
This concept is almost philosophical in nature, and I will cede that I don't really have a strong opinion on it.

But this is true for the monetary premium of any asset. Bitcoin just happens to be purely monetary premium.
 
Well, this is at the crux of our argument, because I am either correct, or I am the greatest fool, because I'm not holding Bitcoin as an investment. I'm storing my life savings in it.
OMG!

I'm speechless.

Hope you dont really have much in life savings.
 
[hyperinflation images]
This is the problem crypto solves:
Yeah, but first it has to create the problem, by giving the rich someplace to park their funds while Trump blasts U.S. currency into oblivion. And the big joke is that it's a ransom currency - all those rich folks will be getting interrogated at gunpoint or by watching loved ones die until they have to hand over their codes, by every crook who knows how to crook, and the ordinary people will look up from their cardboard-box homes and Alligator Alcatraz cells and LAUGH AND LAUGH AND LAUGH...
 
Yeah, but first it has to create the problem, by giving the rich someplace to park their funds while Trump blasts U.S. currency into oblivion.

Not just Trump. Biden spent like a sailor too, and so will whoever comes after Trump.

What's wrong with protecting your wealth from being destroyed by inflation?
 
What's wrong with protecting your wealth from being destroyed by inflation?
Bitcoins aren't going to do that. Yes, there's a limit to the number that can be mined. But there's no limit to the number of new alternatives like "Dogecoins" and "Trumpcoins" and so on that can be made, each attracting some of the crypto-capital, until the value of Bitcoin decreases due to, well, inflation.
 
Yes, probably one of the worst databases ever invented except for this exact purpose. I wasn't making that argument.
What the...? I never said the blockchain was bad. I'm only reminding you that it's a distributed database.

Just about every detail in that statement is incorrect.
😆

And the blockchain is not encrypted.
😆

No, I think it's worth quite a bit.
So what do you think they're doing? Do miners secure the network and validate transactions, or nah?

When it comes to the protocol itself and the consensus mechanism, you just can't cheat it. Well, no one has been able to figure out how in 15 years at least.
lol... Try again. People have known about the 51% attack for at least a decade, if not longer.

And again, I agreed that the blockchain is pretty secure, and would be hard to attack directly. I was pointing out that there are plenty of other ways to cheat crypto holders.

Well, this is at the crux of our argument, because I am either correct, or I am the greatest fool, because I'm not holding Bitcoin as an investment. I'm storing my life savings in it.
Dude.

Maybe you're not expressing your real situation here, but: Diversification of assets is critical. I'd say that anyone who puts their life savings into ANY single asset -- one stock, or one ETF, or one bond fund, or one commodity, whatever -- is a fool, no matter how well it's performed in the past. Putting all your capital into a speculative asset as volatile as BTC would be insane. Please note that this is not financial advice. :D

That said... At this point, if you really do have merely a significant portion of your "life savings" in BTC, how can we see you as anything other than utterly compromised by a conflict of interest? 🤨

I agree on the basic statement technically, but when the price to mine Bitcoin becomes unprofitable for the miner, then they turn off their machines, which makes the amount of energy that has to be spent to mine a block less for the entire network.
Yes... But again, that doesn't happen often because of changes in the price of electricity. It's almost always because BTC's price falls so low that mining at current levels becomes unprofitable.

And again, whatever meaning you think "initial value" has? It has none, because again... the price of a newly mined BTC isn't based on the production cost. It's based on the market price -- and there is no floor, and beyond zero, no level to which a cryptocurrency cannot fall. You DO understand that, right...?

Hey, wanna guess what actually does correlate to the price of BTC? Guess! OK, I'll tell you. It's the stock market. Maybe, just maybe, people are willing to speculate on crypto when they're feeling flush... what a concept.

fredgraph.png


This is why Bitcoin mining incentivizes the development of renewable energy
Or.... It incentivizes enormous wastes of electricity on an object of speculation that provides no real benefit to anyone, except whales, criminals, fraudsters, and a handful of lucky gamblers.

It's not like you can use that electricity for two purposes at once. Either it's powering homes and legitimate businesses, or it's powering digital gambling. Right? Right...?
 
What the...? I never said the blockchain was bad. I'm only reminding you that it's a distributed database.
I know you didn't. I did. And you don't have to remind me that it is a distributed database, I know what it is.
This laugh emoji was in response to my statement that the tlbtc blockchain is not encrypted. Want to show me how it is?
So what do you think they're doing? Do miners secure the network and validate transactions, or nah?
Transactions are picked up by minors and they attempt to write them into blocks. Nodes validate the blocks. And nodes make sure the transactions fit consensus rules. But yes, miners do secure the network.
lol... Try again. People have known about the 51% attack for at least a decade, if not longer.
Yes, a 51% attack has been a attack vector since the very first day Bitcoin launched.

But if you are capable of doing that to Bitcoin, it will cost so much money to just rewrite one single block that it is not really worth doing.
And again, I agreed that the blockchain is pretty secure, and would be hard to attack directly. I was pointing out that there are plenty of other ways to cheat crypto holders.
Yeah, there's plenty of ways to cheat everybody. Stockholders. Just all kinds of ways. The ability for people to cheat does not Invalidate Bitcoin as a pristine store of value.
Dude.

Maybe you're not expressing your real situation here, but: Diversification of assets is critical. I'd say that anyone who puts their life savings into ANY single asset -- one stock, or one ETF, or one bond fund, or one commodity, whatever -- is a fool, no matter how well it's performed in the past. Putting all your capital into a speculative asset as volatile as BTC would be insane. Please note that this is not financial advice. :D
Call me a fool. It's not the only thing I own. I own a house. I own other assets. I have some savings in a 401k. But the vast majority of my assets are Bitcoin.

Have you ever stopped to think why just holding money isnt good enough that you have to speculate in the stock market that you have to buy indexes or pay people to manage your portfolio or invest in real estate or art or collectibles? Have you ever wondered why that is that you can't just hold dollars in the bank?


That said... At this point, if you really do have merely a significant portion of your "life savings" in BTC, how can we see you as anything other than utterly compromised by a conflict of interest? 🤨
Well then, so are you by thinking that it's trash. What's the difference? Just that you think you're right, and I'm wrong. And exactly how does that conflict of interests play out? Do you think I would be able to convince anybody on this thread that isn't already convinced? That almost never happens on this entire form. But I'm definitely putting my money where my mouth is.
Hey, wanna guess what actually does correlate to the price of BTC? Guess! OK, I'll tell you. It's the stock market. Maybe, just maybe, people are willing to speculate on crypto when they're feeling flush...
Actually, Bitcoin and the stock market also correlate to the M2 supply. But it is true Bitcoin has been seen as a tech stock almost for much of its existence, although that correlation is starting to weaken.
Or.... It incentivizes enormous wastes of electricity on an object of speculation that provides no real benefit to anyone, except whales, criminals, fraudsters, and a handful of lucky gamblers.
So you say... I will not be able to convince you otherwise we've gone around this so good a lot of times.
It's not like you can use that electricity for two purposes at once. Either it's powering homes and legitimate businesses, or it's powering digital gambling. Right? Right...?
No, that's wrong, because Bitcoin is not digital gambling. But to respond to the point you're trying to make...

Yes, you can't burn electricity for two different uses at the same time. But Bitcoin enables all kinds of energy-positive scenarios. As I have mentioned, Texas has built wind and solar farms that Bitcoin mners are the first customer of. When the grid is stressed by high temperatures or some other energy need, then the miners can be switched off and all of this renewable energy can flow straight into the grid. This has done great things to solve some of the issues that Texas saw a few years ago.
 
Well, this is at the crux of our argument, because I am either correct, or I am the greatest fool, because I'm not holding Bitcoin as an investment. I'm storing my life savings in it.

You mean a portion of your life savings, right?
 
Oh. So I guess you DO understand that the miners are... keeping track of entries in a distributed database. :D

I've known about what I'm about to say for a while, but it's just not occurred to me that it could be applied in this application....

I'm not in cyber-security, but my position, both in the technologies I work with and the organization I work for, require me to take and pass cyber training. That and I'm a nerd about this stuff anyway....But, I just never thought about the potential of, and the incentive to create quantum computers and use them to break private-public keys in order to steal crypto wallets.

As I understand it the blockchain itself is secured by SHA-256bit encryption, which in itself is vulnerable to quantum computers, but it's not the instant hack that we read about in sci-fi or on You-Tube or TV. However, digital signatures, is the primarily where the vulnerability of current blockchains lies when talking about quantum computing. Most blockchains use elliptic curve cryptography (ECDSA for Bitcoin, EdDSA for others) for digital signatures, which are used to authorize transactions. If your private key can be deduced from your public key, then anyone could forge your signature and spend your funds. This is a much more direct and significant threat than breaking reasonably secure hash functions. Of course, that depends on the power of the first truly viable quantum computer , or conversely, if quantum resistant algorithms can be deployed far and wide before a bad actor can use one to steal peoples money and crash the market.

That means there are potentially billions of dollars that could be vulnerable to theft. If the word ever got out that was happening, all crypto, not just BTC would collapse overnight. Suddenly crypto's biggest selling point becomes it's biggest problem, the decentralized nature of the system.

And let's be honest, the collapse of BTC and crypto doesn't need actual quantum computing to pose a threat, you just need enough people to believe it's happening for the crypto market to crash. Planned by bad-faith actors looking to crash crypto only to swoop in and buy up before the word got out that it's a false alarm...No FDIC in ctypto...lol
 
I've known about what I'm about to say for a while, but it's just not occurred to me that it could be applied in this application....

I'm not in cyber-security, but my position, both in the technologies I work with and the organization I work for, require me to take and pass cyber training. That and I'm a nerd about this stuff anyway....But, I just never thought about the potential of, and the incentive to create quantum computers and use them to break private-public keys in order to steal crypto wallets.

As I understand it the blockchain itself is secured by SHA-256bit encryption, which in itself is vulnerable to quantum computers, but it's not the instant hack that we read about in sci-fi or on You-Tube or TV. However, digital signatures, is the primarily where the vulnerability of current blockchains lies when talking about quantum computing. Most blockchains use elliptic curve cryptography (ECDSA for Bitcoin, EdDSA for others) for digital signatures, which are used to authorize transactions. If your private key can be deduced from your public key, then anyone could forge your signature and spend your funds. This is a much more direct and significant threat than breaking reasonably secure hash functions. Of course, that depends on the power of the first truly viable quantum computer , or conversely, if quantum resistant algorithms can be deployed far and wide before a bad actor can use one to steal peoples money and crash the market.

That means there are potentially billions of dollars that could be vulnerable to theft. If the word ever got out that was happening, all crypto, not just BTC would collapse overnight. Suddenly crypto's biggest selling point becomes it's biggest problem, the decentralized nature of the system.

And let's be honest, the collapse of BTC and crypto doesn't need actual quantum computing to pose a threat, you just need enough people to believe it's happening for the crypto market to crash. Planned by bad-faith actors looking to crash crypto only to swoop in and buy up before the word got out that it's a false alarm...No FDIC in ctypto...lol
You have unusually strong knowledge of one of Bitcoin's most difficult, upcoming dramas. 😁

And yes, it is the ECC, ECDSA/Schnorr signatures that are vulnerable.

And to take it one step further, the early "Pay to public key" (P2PK) addresses are really the low hanging fruit for an attacker. The later address formats which were hashed public keys were hardened and will be more difficult to crack. And there's a new key format with a quantum-resistant signature system called pay to quantum-resistant hash. (P2QRH) proposed.

The wizards in the Bitcoin technical community have been talking about this for many many years and there are multiple proposals. One just came out within the last few days I think.


As to SHA-256, it is certainly also something we should be concerned about, but Bitcoin and will be the least of the world's worries at this point. If any quantum machines can break that, then everything secure falls.

But that's not the big worry for Bitcoin. It is the elliptic curve stuff.

And you are right to touch on the fact that the decentralized nature of the network makes changing things at this level very, very difficult if possible at all.

So far, all the proposed solutions that I've seen are going to be contentious on multiple levels in my opinion.
 
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The FDIC only protects you if your bank fails
[Emphasis mine]


Only?....LOL

I guess people just got tired of regular banking system failures when the government was less involved in bank stability. If we look at the period 1836 to 1913, the so called "Free Banking Era" (right up your ally) when there was no central bank. During that period we had significant economic crisis in 1836, 1873, 1884, 1893, 1907. People forget and we go back to systems that didn't work because we've forgotten the lessons of history.

it doesn’t protect you from the inflation tax
Nor should it, you can do that yourself.

or from the government freezing your account.
Because when criminals are caught stealing other people's money, they should have time to hide their ill gotten gains while their trails are adjudicated.
 
[Emphasis mine]


Only?....LOL

I guess people just got tired of regular banking system failures when the government was less involved in bank stability. If we look at the period 1836 to 1913, the so called "Free Banking Era" (right up your ally) when there was no central bank.

Gobs of government regulation characterized the "free banking era".

During that period we had significant economic crisis in 1836, 1873, 1884, 1893, 1907. People forget and we go back to systems that didn't work because we've forgotten the lessons of history.

And then the "solution" to the problems caused by government regulation was a central bank - which gave us the great depression, stagflation, the 08 crisis, and a dollar that's now worth about one-thirtieth of what it was in 1913.

That follows the typical pattern of government intervention.

Nor should it, you can do that yourself.

99% of the population doesn't understand how inflation works, and it harms people on fixed incomes and savers the most. It's the worst kind of tax - hidden, with no particular politician to blame, which is why leftists like you luv it so much.

Because when criminals are caught stealing other people's money, they should have time to hide their ill gotten gains while their trails are adjudicated.

Like when Trudeau froze bank accounts during the trucker protest?

And let me thank you for strengthening the case for cryptocurrency with every post you make.
 
And then the "solution" to the problems caused by government regulation was a central bank - which gave us the great depression, stagflation, the 08 crisis, and a dollar that's now worth about one-thirtieth of what it was in 1913.
Again, the USD has historically lost 2-3% of its value per year. Bitcoin has lost or gained 50% or more of its value in the span of just a few weeks. It is a far less stable source of value than the USD.
 
Again, the USD has historically lost 2-3% of its value per year. Bitcoin has lost or gained 50% or more of its value in the span of just a few weeks. It is a far less stable source of value than the USD.

Volatility isn’t the same as debasement. Bitcoin swings because it’s still young and supply is fixed. The dollar loses value guaranteed every year because they print more of it, and with a 37 trillion dollar national debt and trillion dollar deficits for the foreseeable future, inflation will be back with a vengeance.

Furthermore, bitcoin isn’t the only game in town. The crypto space is evolving fast, with defi, smart contracts, privacy coins like monero, make the dollar look like a financial fossil.
 
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