Batteries

[LostInSeattle]

Well I think rail makes sense in urban areas or for freight, but if I'm driving say from Omaha Nebraska to Minnesota work Amarillo I could drive a car it would be faster it would cost less than if there was rail and I took that.

Totally agree.

I think one of the reasons why this is so much more common in Europe is because it was already there. This is something they started doing right around the Victorian era

 

[Lisa]

Yet there are people who think that batteries can solve the grid duty cycle problem with wind and solar, her point is that batteries cannot get us to where we need to be.
Home batteries can help the usage of a solar home, but even that may not have a cost justification.

Those grid scale batteries already exist in small form.

Energy storage - IEA

Technology costs for battery storage continue to drop quickly, largely owing to the rapid scale-up of battery manufacturing for electric vehicles, stimulating deployment in the power sector.

www.iea.org

 

[longview]

Those grid scale batteries already exist in small form.

Energy storage - IEA

Technology costs for battery storage continue to drop quickly, largely owing to the rapid scale-up of battery manufacturing for electric vehicles, stimulating deployment in the power sector.

www.iea.org

Sort of, but when you read up on the production reserves, they are more about taking profit than supplying the grid.
Hornsdale Power Reserve
The charge up when electricity is cheap, and supply electricity when it is at it's highest price.

1. 70 MW running for 10 minutes (11.7 MWh) is contracted to the government to provide stability to the grid (grid services)[29] and prevent load-shedding blackouts[15][30] while other generators are started in the event of sudden drops in wind or other network issues. This service reduced the cost of grid services to the Australian Energy Market Operator by 90% in its first 4 months.[31][32]
2. 30 MW for 3 hours (90 MWh) is used by Neoen for load management to store energy when prices are low and sell it when demand is high.[33]

Look at it this way, 90 MWh of it's capacity is for profit, while only 11.7 MWh is for grid stability.

Revenues from operation​

During two days in January 2018 when the wholesale spot price for electricity in South Australia rose due to hot weather, the battery made its owners an estimated A$1,000,000 (US$800,000) as they sold power from the battery to the grid for a price of around A$14,000/MWh.[36] Based on the first six months of operation, the reserve is estimated to earn about A$18 million per year.

 

[Lisa]

Sort of, but when you read up on the production reserves, they are more about taking profit than supplying the grid.

That is obviously capitalism.

Hornsdale Power Reserve
The charge up when electricity is cheap, and supply electricity when it is at it's highest price.

Look at it this way, 90 MWh of it's capacity is for profit, while only 11.7 MWh is for grid stability.

It bis still very much a growing area because there isn't enough storage to smooth out solar or wing generation vs 24 hour need.

 

[longview]

That is obviously capitalism.

It bis still very much a growing area because there isn't enough storage to smooth out solar or wing generation vs 24 hour need.

Again their leveling contract is for 10 minuets, the daily deficits for Wind and Solar are closer to 14 hours.
Where I think we need to go, store the surplus as hydrogen for use in fuel cells for the daily cycling,
and as hydrocarbon fuels for long term (seasonal) energy storage.
UN natural gas (Man Made) would be an excellent medium.
We also need gasoline, Diesel, and jet fuel, any of which can be made from, water and atmospheric CO2.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

In order for public transportation to work you need a minimum population density. Japan has a population density of 338/km² (876 people per square mile). The European Union has a population density of 112/km² (290 people per square mile).

You are only going to see that kind of population density on the eastern portion (east of the Mississippi River) of the US, like in New Jersey, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maryland, Delaware, New York, and Pennsylvania. California is the only State west of the Mississippi River that has a population density similar to that of Europe at 97/km² (250 people per square mile). Even Texas has less than half that population density at 45/km² (117 people per square mile).

Alaska has a population density of 0.43/km² (1.1 people per square mile) and every other State west of the Mississippi River (except for California) has a population density smaller than Texas. That is why public transportation, and high speed rail traffic in particular, will not work in the US west of the Mississippi River, except perhaps in California. We lack the necessary population density to make such a project viable.

A lot of Americans also live in urban areas. There are like a lot of traffic is between urban area fairly close to each other.

Also investments into public transport and cycling can have a lot benefits in urban areas.

The Negative Consequences of Car Dependency

Auto-oriented towns experience serious challenges that negatively impact small businesses, community health, and financial success for everyone.

www.strongtowns.org

https://www.dw.com/en/15-minute-cities-what-are-they-and-how-do-they-work/a-64907776

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Again their leveling contract is for 10 minuets, the daily deficits for Wind and Solar are closer to 14 hours.
Where I think we need to go, store the surplus as hydrogen for use in fuel cells for the daily cycling,
and as hydrocarbon fuels for long term (seasonal) energy storage.
UN natural gas (Man Made) would be an excellent medium.
We also need gasoline, Diesel, and jet fuel, any of which can be made from, water and atmospheric CO2.

The only example of using hydrocarbon fuels for long term storage what you provided is a small trial project from 2020. Without any updates on that project.

That there are many more efficient ways to balance the grid.

 

[longview]

A lot of Americans also live in urban areas. There are like a lot of traffic is between urban area fairly close to each other.

Also investments into public transport and cycling can have a lot benefits in urban areas.

The Negative Consequences of Car Dependency

Auto-oriented towns experience serious challenges that negatively impact small businesses, community health, and financial success for everyone.

www.strongtowns.org

https://www.dw.com/en/15-minute-cities-what-are-they-and-how-do-they-work/a-64907776

There you go again telling people how they should live!

 

[longview]

The only example of using hydrocarbon fuels for long term storage what you provided is a small trial project from 2020. Without any updates on that project.

That there are many more efficient ways to balance the grid.

Tell us about these more efficient ways to balance the grid, that are available to all the different topogies?
Pumped hydro would be great, if you have the land area, the topology, and the water supply, many places do not have all three.
Batteries cannot as of yet, correct the lack of duty cycle coverage from Wind and Solar.
The few energy storage technologies that can meet the demand are hydrocarbon energy storage and Ammonia energy storage,
of those two hydrocarbons offer the greatest leverage to existing demand and infrastructure.
Chevron Turns to the Sun to Cash In on This $1.4 Trillion Opportunity

Chevron expects the plant to produce about 2.2 tonnes of hydrogen per day starting next year. That's enough to power 54,000 homes or fuel a vehicle for 132,000 miles. The hydrogen Chevron produces at the facility will most likely be used as a transportation fuel.

Hydrogen is one aspect of Chevron's plan to invest $10 billion through 2028 in building several lower-carbon energy businesses. It's also investing to grow its renewable natural gas production, renewable fuel output, and carbon capture and storage capabilities.

 

[Glitch]

A lot of Americans also live in urban areas. There are like a lot of traffic is between urban area fairly close to each other.

Also investments into public transport and cycling can have a lot benefits in urban areas.

The Negative Consequences of Car Dependency

Auto-oriented towns experience serious challenges that negatively impact small businesses, community health, and financial success for everyone.

www.strongtowns.org

https://www.dw.com/en/15-minute-cities-what-are-they-and-how-do-they-work/a-64907776

When the population density is less than half of Europe, it should be obvious that not enough people live in those urban areas to make public transportation viable. Unlike in Europe urban areas are not close to each other in the US once you are west of the Mississippi River. You can go more than 161 km (100 miles) between towns in western US. The distance between Los Angeles and San Diego, California, is about the same as the distance Frankfurt am Main is from Munich Germany, and those two urban areas in the US are considered to be close.

Only about 10% of the US' entire population (or 33.5 million) live between the Cascade/Sierra Nevada mountains on the west, and 95°W longitude on the east. You are too use to living in high density Europe to be able to comprehend what it is like to live where the population density is under 100 people per square mile. There is no such thing as a "15 minute city" in the US because US citizens do not like living on top of each other like they do in Europe.

 

[longview]

When the population density is less than half of Europe, it should be obvious that not enough people live in those urban areas to make public transportation viable. Unlike in Europe urban areas are not close to each other in the US once you are west of the Mississippi River. You can go more than 161 km (100 miles) between towns in western US. The distance between Los Angeles and San Diego, California, is about the same as the distance Frankfurt am Main is from Munich Germany, and those two urban areas in the US are considered to be close.

Only about 10% of the US' entire population (or 33.5 million) live between the Cascade/Sierra Nevada mountains on the west, and 95°W longitude on the east. You are too use to living in high density Europe to be able to comprehend what it is like to live where the population density is under 100 people per square mile. There is no such thing as a "15 minute city" in the US because US citizens do not like living on top of each other like they do in Europe.

I think even the New York City metro is subsidized and the fairs do not cover the costs.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Tell us about these more efficient ways to balance the grid, that are available to all the different topogies?
Pumped hydro would be great, if you have the land area, the topology, and the water supply, many places do not have all three.
Batteries cannot as of yet, correct the lack of duty cycle coverage from Wind and Solar.
The few energy storage technologies that can meet the demand are hydrocarbon energy storage and Ammonia energy storage,
of those two hydrocarbons offer the greatest leverage to existing demand and infrastructure.
Chevron Turns to the Sun to Cash In on This $1.4 Trillion Opportunity

There are for example close loop pump storage. There you also can use closed down mines.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/12/pumped-hydro-accelerating-into-grid-storage-future/

While there also many other ways to balance the grid. There many technologies can also use cheap and easily available resources.

How iron-air batteries could fill gaps in renewable energy

Rust Belt cities could be the perfect place to develop this renewable energy solution.

www.pbs.org

How a sand battery could transform clean energy

A new way of storing renewable energy is providing clean heat through the long Nordic nights.

www.bbc.com

Next Big Thing In Long Duration Energy Storage: Hot Bricks

Hot bricks are calling, and investors are responding to the allure of low cost, long duration energy storage.

cleantechnica.com

 

[Bergslagstroll]

When the population density is less than half of Europe, it should be obvious that not enough people live in those urban areas to make public transportation viable. Unlike in Europe urban areas are not close to each other in the US once you are west of the Mississippi River. You can go more than 161 km (100 miles) between towns in western US. The distance between Los Angeles and San Diego, California, is about the same as the distance Frankfurt am Main is from Munich Germany, and those two urban areas in the US are considered to be close.

Only about 10% of the US' entire population (or 33.5 million) live between the Cascade/Sierra Nevada mountains on the west, and 95°W longitude on the east. You are too use to living in high density Europe to be able to comprehend what it is like to live where the population density is under 100 people per square mile. There is no such thing as a "15 minute city" in the US because US citizens do not like living on top of each other like they do in Europe.

In many European cities and towns you have a mix of single family homes, terrace houses / townhouses and different types of apartment buildings.While also local shops and restaurants. Instead of just suburban sprawls and high density areas with high rise apartments buildings.



There it also can be possible to improve American suburbs and create more convenience and choices.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

I think even the New York City metro is subsidized and the fairs do not cover the costs.

It was the displacement of over one million people and massive government investments that lead to today's car dependent American cities.
https://www.history.com/news/interstate-highway-system-infrastructure-construction-segregation

There you also today have the massive cost of infrastructure for cars including subsidized parking and parking mandates.



More car dependency also leads to high cost for families.

The High Cost of Transportation in the United States

What does the average American pay to get around every day in 2024? What portion of their income is devoted to transportation? Is that cost typical across developed countries? Unfortunately, the portion of household expenditure spent on transportation in the United States is often a larger...

www.itdp.org

 

[longview]

There are for example close loop pump storage. There you also can use closed down mines.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/12/pumped-hydro-accelerating-into-grid-storage-future/

While there also many other ways to balance the grid. There many technologies can also use cheap and easily available resources.

How iron-air batteries could fill gaps in renewable energy

Rust Belt cities could be the perfect place to develop this renewable energy solution.

www.pbs.org

How a sand battery could transform clean energy

A new way of storing renewable energy is providing clean heat through the long Nordic nights.

www.bbc.com

Next Big Thing In Long Duration Energy Storage: Hot Bricks

Hot bricks are calling, and investors are responding to the allure of low cost, long duration energy storage.

cleantechnica.com

No matter how big a mine it's water capacity is likely limited, in grid scale we are talking about a few minuets.
Storing heat is good for heating applications but for balancing the grid, would incur the same Carnot losses as any heat engine.
All existing batteries lack the energy density to support the grid for more than a few days, and we need months.

 

[longview]

It was the displacement of over one million people and massive government investments that lead to today's car dependent American cities.
https://www.history.com/news/interstate-highway-system-infrastructure-construction-segregation

There you also today have the massive cost of infrastructure for cars including subsidized parking and parking mandates.



More car dependency also leads to high cost for families.

The High Cost of Transportation in the United States

What does the average American pay to get around every day in 2024? What portion of their income is devoted to transportation? Is that cost typical across developed countries? Unfortunately, the portion of household expenditure spent on transportation in the United States is often a larger...

www.itdp.org

That still does not mean that the NYC metro can cover it's own costs with the ticket sales!

 

[Glitch]

In many European cities and towns you have a mix of single family homes, terrace houses / townhouses and different types of apartment buildings.While also local shops and restaurants. Instead of just suburban sprawls and high density areas with high rise apartments buildings.



There it also can be possible to improve American suburbs and create more convenience and choices.

I know. I lived in Germany for three years. Single-family homes were rare when I lived in Germany. Terrace homes or townhouses (what we call zero-lot line or duplexes in the US) were far more common. The closer you got toward city center, the more apartment complexes appeared.

Everyone of the properties in my sub-division in Alaska are a minimum of one acre in size. Most are larger. The property size of most homes in US cities are around a quarter acre in size. Most US cities also have distinct residential, commercial, and industrial areas that are kept completely separate. In Germany it was not uncommon to find a small restaurant or a small business (like their Imbiss), in residential areas. There is far less distinction between commercial and residential areas in Germany than there is in the US.

When I lived in Worms, for example, I lived only a few blocks from the cathedral, but also only a few blocks away was the farmer's market that showed up every weekend right across the street from the cathedral during the Summer months. There were also coffee shops, a butcher shop, a few bars, and a couple of restaurants within a three or four block radius from where I lived.

I never owned a vehicle when I lived in Germany, because I didn't need one. That is not how it works in the US, however. You will not find bars, restaurants, or commercial stores within cities where it is specifically designated a residential zone. Although, you can find large apartment complexes, or condominiums in cities where it has been designated commercial zones. If the apartment/condominium complex is big enough sometimes they will include commercial stores within the building.

US cities are also laid out differently from European cities. European cities have hundreds, even thousands of years of history. They evolved catering to foot, horse, and wagon traffic, not modern vehicles. Whereas many of the US cities only came into existence after the automobile was invented. The US did not have a history of invaders, and could therefore make their streets wider and lay everything out in a logical grid pattern. Instead of having narrow and convoluted roads in order to confuse an invading force. There are a whole host of reasons why US cities do not resemble European cities, history and culture are just two of those reasons.

FYI: I absolutely hate European round-abouts. They are an accident waiting to happen every Winter in Alaska.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

No matter how big a mine it's water capacity is likely limited, in grid scale we are talking about a few minuets.
Storing heat is good for heating applications but for balancing the grid, would incur the same Carnot losses as any heat engine.
All existing batteries lack the energy density to support the grid for more than a few days, and we need months.

That are great potential for close pump energy storage in mines. From my previous link.

"Even with those restrictions and lack of sufficient data on large portions of the world like most of Russia, they found that there was resource for 616,000 sites with sufficient energy and power capacity to be 100 times the requirements for all grid storage for the world, and 200 times in North America, blessed as it is with lots of steep land on both coasts.

This model means that pumped hydro reuses water over and over again with little loss, doesn’t impact existing rivers and the head height means that the reservoirs are small. Per Stocks, a gigaliter of water with 500 meter head height would provide a gigawatt hour of energy storage with two small reservoirs only a kilometer on a side if square, more ponds than new lakes."

There you also have the potential for open reservoir pump storage in many places around the world.

Swiss 'water battery' boosts Europe's energy storage plans – DW – 11/30/2022

A Swiss company has built what is being called a giant water battery deep under the Alps that provides an energy storage capacity equivalent to 400,000 electric car batteries. It could be a game changer.

www.dw.com

Also size and weight is not an limiting factors for batteries used for energy storage. So you can use bulkier but much cheaper types of batteries for storage.

Georgia Power, Form Energy to deploy 100-hour iron-air battery system

The multi-day battery system could come online in Georgia as early as 2026 and is subject to regulatory approvals.

www.power-eng.com

Industriell heat is a large share of energy consumption and CO2 emissions. So it can be great potential to use cheap renewable electricity to produce that heat. While combining it will simple forms of storage like bricks to release the heat then needed.

https://newatlas.com/energy/rondo-heat-battery-brick-toaster/

 

[longview]

That are great potential for close pump energy storage in mines. From my previous link.

"Even with those restrictions and lack of sufficient data on large portions of the world like most of Russia, they found that there was resource for 616,000 sites with sufficient energy and power capacity to be 100 times the requirements for all grid storage for the world, and 200 times in North America, blessed as it is with lots of steep land on both coasts.

This model means that pumped hydro reuses water over and over again with little loss, doesn’t impact existing rivers and the head height means that the reservoirs are small. Per Stocks, a gigaliter of water with 500 meter head height would provide a gigawatt hour of energy storage with two small reservoirs only a kilometer on a side if square, more ponds than new lakes."

There you also have the potential for open reservoir pump storage in many places around the world.

Swiss 'water battery' boosts Europe's energy storage plans – DW – 11/30/2022

A Swiss company has built what is being called a giant water battery deep under the Alps that provides an energy storage capacity equivalent to 400,000 electric car batteries. It could be a game changer.

www.dw.com

Also size and weight is not an limiting factors for batteries used for energy storage. So you can use bulkier but much cheaper types of batteries for storage.

Georgia Power, Form Energy to deploy 100-hour iron-air battery system

The multi-day battery system could come online in Georgia as early as 2026 and is subject to regulatory approvals.

www.power-eng.com

Industriell heat is a large share of energy consumption and CO2 emissions. So it can be great potential to use cheap renewable electricity to produce that heat. While combining it will simple forms of storage like bricks to release the heat then needed.

https://newatlas.com/energy/rondo-heat-battery-brick-toaster/

I understand that batteries can ease grid spikes, but you are not grasping the scale of the problem, and you are refusing to consider all the potential solutions including those that will leverage existing generation capacity!

 

[Volunteer]

Solar... Funny joke.

Solar is no joke. My electric bills are zero. The surplus my array sends to the grid is free electricity for the utility. Great deal for me, and the utility. What's so funny about that?

 

[CLAX1911]

Solar is no joke. My electric bills are zero. The surplus my array sends to the grid is free electricity for the utility. Great deal for me, and the utility. What's so funny about that?

How long have you had them?

 

[Bergslagstroll]

I understand that batteries can ease grid spikes, but you are not grasping the scale of the problem, and you are refusing to consider all the potential solutions including those that will leverage existing generation capacity!

The only examples you have provided of producing carbon neutral fuels, store it and produce electricity is a small trial that was planned for 2020.

While there are many advancements in other forms of energy storage. Like for example that "sand batteries" might be able to store heat at 500 Celsius. So they might become a option for long term storage of heat for industrial processes and not just district heating.

World’s largest sand battery set to slash emissions in Finnish town

The battery will be able to store a week’s heat demand in winter - how does it work?

www.euronews.com

While stationary electric batteries can become very cheap.

Form Energy's $20/kWh, 100-hour iron-air battery could be a 'substantial breakthrough'

Form unveiled a chemistry process for powering a battery the company claims can deliver electricity for 100 hours.

www.utilitydive.com

 

[longview]

The only examples you have provided of producing carbon neutral fuels, store it and produce electricity is a small trial that was planned for 2020.

While there are many advancements in other forms of energy storage. Like for example that "sand batteries" might be able to store heat at 500 Celsius. So they might become a option for long term storage of heat for industrial processes and not just district heating.

World’s largest sand battery set to slash emissions in Finnish town

The battery will be able to store a week’s heat demand in winter - how does it work?

www.euronews.com

While stationary electric batteries can become very cheap.

Form Energy's $20/kWh, 100-hour iron-air battery could be a 'substantial breakthrough'

Form unveiled a chemistry process for powering a battery the company claims can deliver electricity for 100 hours.

www.utilitydive.com

You bias is showing!
I am open to any form of energy storage that can prove itself viable.
It is you who are taking entire categories of energy storage out of contention!