Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

[Casca XV]

* Please note the quote feature did not properly work on my previous post so I tried repairing the quote.

The Americcan Medical Association does not agree a 20 week fetus feels pain and no c-sections cannot be preformed at 20 weeks because at 20 weeks a c-section is considered an abortion under a week bortion ban.

From the following article:


Minnie, Minnie, Minnie,,,,, We have been through this before and you lost. Posting fake sources doesn't help you propaganda. As sad as occasional stillborn are changes nothing concerning abortions. MY GOD HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

 

[minnie616]

Minnie, Minnie, Minnie,,,,, We have been through this before and you lost. Posting fake sources doesn't help you propaganda. As sad as occasional stillborn are changes nothing concerning abortions. MY GOD HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

I have posted from several sources that the American Medical Association says a 20 week old fetus does not feel pain.

From the following 2017 article:

The general consensus is that fetuses can start feeling pain during the third trimester, which starts between 27 and 28 weeks of gestation.

A 2005 synthesis of available evidence published in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded that “Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.”

The JAMA review found that pain perception is unlikely until the connections form between the brain’s thalamus and the cortex somewhere between 23 and 30 weeks. Other studies cited in the review
found that the capacity for “functional pain” in unborn fetuses “probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks.”

Other reports from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in the United Kingdom and American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists agree with the JAMA review.

https://www.metro.us/news/the-big-stories/abortion-ban-can-fetuses-feel-pain

 

[year2late]

What is ludicrous is that some penis ramming into my domain and spewing its **** as her orgasm deprives me of oxygen and then they think you enjoyed it is never even brought into question as a being "good" for the fetus and categorically posted as acceptable.

And what kind of pervert wants to have sex with a woman with a fetus in her.....

Exquisitor...you do realize that during sexual intercourse, the penis does not enter the uterus, right? The uterus would be the "domain" of fetus.

What pervert wants to have sex with a pregnant woman? A normal healthy one? What is perverted about sex with a pregnant woman?

 

[TheGoverness]

Exquisitor...you do realize that during sexual intercourse, the penis does not enter the uterus, right? The uterus would be the "domain" of fetus.

What pervert wants to have sex with a pregnant woman? A normal healthy one? What is perverted about sex with a pregnant woman?

It's perverted! How dare someone want to have sex with their significant other, and deprive the fetus of oxygen. It's disgusting!

 

[year2late]

It's perverted! How dare someone want to have sex with their significant other, and deprive the fetus of oxygen. It's disgusting!

Is autoerotic asphyxiation normal sex for this guy? How else do you cut off O2 to the fetus?:lamo

 

[Casca XV]

I have posted from several sources that the American Medical Association says a 20 week old fetus does not feel pain.

From the following 2017 article:


https://www.metro.us/news/the-big-stories/abortion-ban-can-fetuses-feel-pain

You are quoting "abortion at any time propagandists". I am quoting the "American Medical Association". I even found one of your own propaganda sources admitting that it is the position of the AMA that fetuses feel pain by 20 weeks. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ain-20-weeks&usg=AOvVaw1RIJQEsPxGIAhRvZ4rZYQd

I'm not even arguing against abortion, I'm just stating that with this and Preemies surviving at 21 and 1/2 weeks, 20 weeks or 5 months is a good safe time to stop abortions.

 

[Lursa]

You are quoting "abortion at any time propagandists". I am quoting the "American Medical Association". I even found one of your own propaganda sources admitting that it is the position of the AMA that fetuses feel pain by 20 weeks. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ain-20-weeks&usg=AOvVaw1RIJQEsPxGIAhRvZ4rZYQd

I'm not even arguing against abortion, I'm just stating that with this and Preemies surviving at 21 and 1/2 weeks, 20 weeks or 5 months is a good safe time to stop abortions.

I note that they dont link to the actual articles they are quoting. Hmmm.

And it's a moot point anyway, because as has been pointed out, there are methods available for pain remediation, just like for any other medical procedure. Such as anesthetic injection. Or even lethal injection. There's no need for any pain.

 

[choiceone]

Exquisitor...you do realize that during sexual intercourse, the penis does not enter the uterus, right? The uterus would be the "domain" of fetus.

What pervert wants to have sex with a pregnant woman? A normal healthy one? What is perverted about sex with a pregnant woman?

Pregnancy IS sex with a pregnant woman.

The penis couldn't go in far enough, so it ejected spermatic fluid.
The fluid couldn't go in far enough, so individual sperm swam in further, up where the ova were.
The whole sperm couldn't get into an ovum, but the head could, and it provided its chromosomes.

At first, the male's chromosomes could only get in the ovum and transform it, but as the ovum was transformed, the embryo it became eventually implanted into the endometrial wall and, after making a placenta - using some of the woman's tissue as well as its own - it leaked copies of its own cells and also loose chromosomes into the woman's bloodstream.

You apparently want to pretend that the woman and man are not still doing it merely because the man has removed the digits and other appendages of his organism, but parts of the guy are still inside her. If that woman gave birth to your kid, you are always having sex with her.

The guy can't give her pleasure that way, of course; instead, he can only give her morning sickness, etc. So if he cares about her, he might want to have more digity/appendagy/caressy forms of sex with her to make her feel better after giving her bad feelings, and if he doesn't care about her, he might not.

Who's perverted?

 

[minnie616]

You are quoting "abortion at any time propagandists". I am quoting the "American Medical Association". I even found one of your own propaganda sources admitting that it is the position of the AMA that fetuses feel pain by 20 weeks. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ain-20-weeks&usg=AOvVaw1RIJQEsPxGIAhRvZ4rZYQd

I'm not even arguing against abortion, I'm just stating that with this and Preemies surviving at 21 and 1/2 weeks, 20 weeks or 5 months is a good safe time to stop abortions.

That is just a letter/petition to the AMA saying a couple of Clincal studies in Belgium that appears an unborn may feel pain even though the cerebral cortex is not fully formed.

Look at the second column of the page for the quote I am posting ...the You at the beginning of sentence refers to the AMA.

You argue that until cerebral cortex is fully formed, babies cannot feel pain. However, at least two other medical studies argue the opposite. A study published in the journal Pain: Clinical Updates argues that unborn babies under 20 weeks do in fact appear to feel pain in the same way that a newborn baby does. Researchers at the department of anesthesiology at the University Hospitals in Gasthuisberg, Belgium, further confirmed this finding: that the cortex is not necessary for an unborn baby to experience pain.

American Medical Association, babies do feel pain before 20 weeks! | CitizenGO


And as has been mentioned many times there are medical methods to prevent a fetus from pain during an abortion.

It’s kinda strange that pro life people are not concerned about the pain the fetus feels during labor or childbirth ...that procedure often lasts many hours...
Go figure?

Talk about Dishonesty in a public forum.

In fact the Indiana Religious Coaliation of Reproductive Choice adresses that very dishonesty in its website:

DISHONESTY IN THE PUBLIC FORUM

the cruel fallacy that adoption is an easy solution to unwanted pregnancy – for any of the parties involved

minimization of maternal burden and risk in pregnancy – loss of wages, shortness of breath and endurance, pain, reduction of motility, vulnerability to humiliation, domestic violence and murder

overstating the maternal risk of abortion (childbirth carries 11 times the maternal mortality of abortion)

the incoherence of great concern for fetal pain at 20 weeks yet no concern for fetal pain in labor and childbirth

the Christian extremist terrorism of stalking, harassment, threats and murder of abortion providers

the corruption of democracy by legislators’ misuse of public health law and policy that worsens public health and wastes resources in order to pander to voters

HONESTY | IRCRC

 

[year2late]

Pregnancy IS sex with a pregnant woman.

The penis couldn't go in far enough, so it ejected spermatic fluid.
The fluid couldn't go in far enough, so individual sperm swam in further, up where the ova were.
The whole sperm couldn't get into an ovum, but the head could, and it provided its chromosomes.

At first, the male's chromosomes could only get in the ovum and transform it, but as the ovum was transformed, the embryo it became eventually implanted into the endometrial wall and, after making a placenta - using some of the woman's tissue as well as its own - it leaked copies of its own cells and also loose chromosomes into the woman's bloodstream.

You apparently want to pretend that the woman and man are not still doing it merely because the man has removed the digits and other appendages of his organism, but parts of the guy are still inside her. If that woman gave birth to your kid, you are always having sex with her.

The guy can't give her pleasure that way, of course; instead, he can only give her morning sickness, etc. So if he cares about her, he might want to have more digity/appendagy/caressy forms of sex with her to make her feel better after giving her bad feelings, and if he doesn't care about her, he might not.

Who's perverted?

:lamo

 

[Lord of Planar]

House passes 20-week abortion ban, with Trump White House support | Fox News

Let's bring up science and facts. The evidence is overwhelming that a fetus feels pain in the womb. If this legislation bans late-term abortion on that scientific fact, I support it.

I would like to see an earlier time frame, but this is a good start.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I think a 20 week ban is just fine although I would favor more a 12 week ban.

12 sounds good. I see no need for earlier than 10 weeks.

 

[Lord of Planar]

So it is indeed a subjective, ethical choice. IMO, I value a woman's rights over the unborn. Not that I dont value the unborn, but not equally. IMO they are not equal to women.

I, on the other hand, value innocent life over someones discomfort.

 

[minnie616]

...

I'm not even arguing against abortion, I'm just stating that with this and Preemies surviving at 21 and 1/2 weeks, 20 weeks or 5 months is a good safe time to stop abortions.

I am only aware of 2 preemies younger that 22 weeks who lived morethan a few minutes or hours.
They were 21 weeks and 5 days gestation and 21 weeks and 6 days gestation.

They were concidered medical miracles.
Gestation means doctors are counting from the first day of the LMP.

So the woman is said to be two weeks pregnant the day she conceives. :shock:

 

[Lord of Planar]

There is no such thing as a "soul" and if there was up to 80% of them are spontaneously aborted. Heaven must be full of souls that never were born. Why would God be so cruel?


https://valerietarico.com/2015/01/09/who-aborts-the-most-fertilized-eggs-families-like-the-duggars/

You can't make either of those claims with certainty, and shows a closed mind. Who knows. Maybe if there is a soul, it chooses not to be born to the mother carrying its vessel?

I know, its a silly though, but my point is that we don't really know.

 

[Lord of Planar]

What is ludicrous is that some penis ramming into my domain and spewing its **** as her orgasm deprives me of oxygen and then they think you enjoyed it is never even brought into question as a being "good" for the fetus and categorically posted as acceptable.

And what kind of pervert wants to have sex with a woman with a fetus in her.

Wow... What ignorance.

There is nothing wrong with having sex while pregnant. Those 30+ years back, my wife and I continued having sex for most of her pregnancies.

It's actually great sex!

In fact, you don't have to worry about knocking her up!

 

[Lursa]

I, on the other hand, value innocent life over someones discomfort.

What is the woman guilty of? She's also innocent.

What you 'value' in the unborn is an emptiness, a vacuum. There is no ability for the unborn to act, to even form intent. It is the 'innocence' of emptiness, it's innocent in the same way a flower or a crystal is. Why would you value that?

But the 86,700 women per yr in the US that die or suffer severe health consequences (stroke, kidney failure, aneurysm, diabetes, etc) appreciate that you feel their pain and suffering were insignificant. As do their families and friends.

 

[Lord of Planar]

What is the woman guilty of? She's also innocent.

What you 'value' in the unborn is an emptiness, a vacuum. There is no ability for the unborn to act, to even form intent. It is the 'innocence' of emptiness, it's innocent in the same way a flower or a crystal is. Why would you value that?

But the 86,700 women per yr in the US that die or suffer severe health consequences (stroke, kidney failure, aneurysm, diabetes, etc) appreciate that you feel their pain and suffering were insignificant. As do their families and friends.

There is little a quadriplegic mute can do. Do you advocate euthanizing them?

Unless she was raped, she is wholly responsible for the life she started. To say otherwise is to say irresponsibility is OK. Medical issues are another thing I'm sure is an exception in the bill, otherwise it would have never passed.

Using abortion as birth control is flat out evil!

 

[Lursa]

There is little a quadriplegic mute can do. Do you advocate euthanizing them?

Unless she was raped, she is wholly responsible for the life she started. To say otherwise is to say irresponsibility is OK.

Why would I recommend that? That person can think, communicate (of course they can), share, contribute, enjoy, etc etc etc. Why would you demean such a person?

And it's not a crime to get pregnant. Nothing wrong with it at all. Birth control failure isnt 'irresponsibilty.'

If you cant explain 'why' the unborn has more value than a woman without judgement and blame, it's obvious all you care about is punishing women you disapprove of, not the actual unborn.

 

[Lord of Planar]

And it's not a crime to get pregnant. Nothing wrong with it at all. Birth control failure isnt 'irresponsibilty.'

OMG, yes it is. You are outright irresponsible if you don't consider that birth control can fail. You should not be engaging in sex, unless you are prepared to raise a child should that occur.

Do you also advocate playing Russian Roulette?

If you cant explain 'why' the unborn has more value than a woman without judgement and blame, it's obvious all you care about is punishing women you disapprove of, not the actual unborn.

If you believe innocent unborn life has no right to live, but is at the mercy of the mother, what does that say of your morals?

 

[Scrabaholic]

You are quoting "abortion at any time propagandists". I am quoting the "American Medical Association". I even found one of your own propaganda sources admitting that it is the position of the AMA that fetuses feel pain by 20 weeks. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ain-20-weeks&usg=AOvVaw1RIJQEsPxGIAhRvZ4rZYQd

I'm not even arguing against abortion, I'm just stating that with this and Preemies surviving at 21 and 1/2 weeks, 20 weeks or 5 months is a good safe time to stop abortions.

While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/201429

 

[Lursa]

OMG, yes it is. You are outright irresponsible if you don't consider that birth control can fail. You should not be engaging in sex, unless you are prepared to raise a child should that occur.

So married couples that cant afford kids yet just shouldnt have sex?? Wow, the divorce rate would skyrocket.

What a stupid, unrealistic demand, not to have sex unless you are willing to have a kid. Sex is a wonderful gift that all should be able to enjoy. Yes of course they should do so responsibly but accidents happen.

Having sex is the strongest instinct on the planet...people arent going to stop having it, they never have, all thru history when it was much more dangerous and socially unacceptable. Why on earth should women stop now, when they have a safer, legal options like birth control, adoption, and abortion?

If you believe innocent unborn life has no right to live, but is at the mercy of the mother, what does that say of your morals?

If you think that women should have no say over their own risks for their lives and futures and value the unborn over women, what does that say about your morals? That is no moral High Ground.

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you really do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

 

[Scrabaholic]

I, on the other hand, value innocent life over someones discomfort.

Easy to say when your body will never go through that pain, isn't it?

 

[Scrabaholic]

I am only aware of 2 preemies younger that 22 weeks who lived morethan a few minutes or hours.
They were 21 weeks and 5 days gestation and 21 weeks and 6 days gestation.

They were concidered medical miracles.
Gestation means doctors are counting from the first day of the LMP.

So the woman is said to be two weeks pregnant the day she conceives. :shock:

Those two cases were known fertilization dates. I believe the one was a test tube baby, can't remember if the other one was or not. So, they were closer to 24 weeks LMP.

 

[Casca XV]

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/201429

Quoting "Pro Unlimited Abortions Anytime" propaganda is a waste of everyone's time.

I'm quoting an American Medical Association report that had nothing to do with the abortion debate.

It's not a regular internet article, so it's a little hard to find. But one of your own sources confirms that the AMA official stance is that by 20 weeks a fetus feels pain and has brain activity.

You need to face up to the fact that after a point Abortion is killing a baby.

Kermit Gosnell has been classified a Serial Killer by FBI investigators. People like you wanting all restrictions on abortion erased will release Monsters like that on to the world.