Atheism is a religion [W:1586,2242]

[KokomoJojo]

reality, facts definitions of words all prove your opinion false in most cases and at best just an opinion in one

1.) actually beliefs done have to do that thats your subjective opinion
2.) correct atheists do not believe in god(s)
3.) meanignless to the term atheism
4.) the definition of the word religion disagrees, at best this would be an opinion of yours

you dont seem equipped to take this to a level necessary to wrap your mind around it.

You failed to understand that what you said about the court ruling was backwards, and you fail to understand how to apply common words.

be·lief

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.



"something one accepts as true" <-- that applies to atheists

there is simply no place to duck out, unless you want to claim atheists dont believe themselves

 

[AGENT J]

Words only mean what we let them mean.

so when we let the definition of atheism change let me know

 

[The Mark]

so when we let the definition of atheism change let me know

Ah, but I have my own personal world over here, and thus I can always be right even if I'm wrong in that OTHER world *peers suspiciously at the rest of humanity*.

 

[Paschendale]

What is the point of this thread? The church and state forum is supposed to be about interaction between religion and government. Legally, atheism is treated the same as a religion. Not having religion is protected by the first amendment just like any organized religious belief, despite issues like the seven state constitutions that bar atheists from holding political office. Those provisions would never stand up to a constitutional challenge. Sadly, many smaller religions aren't well protected. I have a feeling that a closely-held corporation owned by Wiccans or Vodun wouldn't be able to exercise the benefits conferred onto Hobby Lobby, nor would the case have gone the same way if the company had been trying to enforce a Muslim belief.

On that note, though, the are no such demands that a company whose owners were atheist could make on their employees. There are no doctrines to follow.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Words only mean what we let them mean.

Thats partly true, most actually have an origin and are built up from there like piling bricks to build a house. German comes to mind. The language is grossly abused today however and many people live their whole lives never getting above grade school level undestanding.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)you dont seem equipped to take this to a level necessary to wrap your mind around it.
2.)You failed to understand that what you said about the court ruling was backwards, and you fail to understand how to apply common words.

be·lief

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.



"something one accepts as true" <-- that applies to atheists

3.)there is simply no place to duck out, unless you want to claim atheists dont believe themselves

1.) lol oh look a failed insult, this is a common tactic when a post is factually proven wrong, no shock here lol
2.) nope its EXACTLY why they did and it has ZERO impact to the word athism, this fact isnt going to change no matter how desperately you want it too

here you like to BOLD stuff so lets bold somethign you conveniently choose to ignore

your OWN definition proves you wrong LMAO

here ill qoute it
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

oh look it says it can be a firmly held opinion so therefore a person would know and understand thats all it is, just an opinion not necessarily true

thank you for owning your own post and proving it wrong you dont get to pick and choose to suit your failed and proven wrong statement you have to accept ALL of reality facts and definitions

3.) i agree you cant duck out unless you want to ignore the very own definition you posted thanks again for proving facts right

Atheism is not a religion

let me know when you have ONE fact that makes it otherwise . . . one

 

[AGENT J]

Ah, but I have my own personal world over here, and thus I can always be right even if I'm wrong in that OTHER world *peers suspiciously at the rest of humanity*.

SWEET!!!!

is your world an entirely different world where you are watching the rest of us on a screen
or just your subconscious
or like an island and sometimes you have in the other "wrong world"

that actually sounds awesome, can i visit, ill bring drinks!!!!! (if thats what you like)

 

[AGENT J]

see the words BELIEF(S)

BOOM! that post fails

unless of course you can tell me the BELIEFS of atheism

the court ruled that a non practicing of religion was also protected NOT that atheism is a religion this was to achieve equal rights on this issuLMAO
please try to understand this fact and the definition of words and how they work

theres the facts, your mistake, im glad i could help.

if you disagree all you have to do is FACTUALLY Prove atheism is a religion

What is FACTUALLY thier belief system?
What is factually thier FAITH
what FACTUALLY do they worship

once you can answer these questions using facts you will have a case until then you got nothing

let me know

I wonder why this was so conveniently dodged lol

 

[vash1012]

I'd like some facts, please. First, why do atheists disbelieve in gods when there is no burden of proof/scientific evidence that precluded gods from creating the universe?

I'm pointing out another mindset of atheists with, for example, 5. I'm not saying all atheists believe every secular authority, I'm saying no atheist believes a religious authority.

Everything is evidence that God doesn't exist. Life goes on as a series of random interaction with no obvious mysterious force that is affecting these random interactions from the outside. There is a direct cause and effect relationship to every thing that happens in the universe and not one bit of it depends on the existence of a god. All our knowledge of divine beings comes from apocryphal stories and belief systems passed down through the generations. Most of the world today follows religions that are <6000 years old and show in their creation myths the fact that they were created fantastically in a time of human civilization before anything was known about the age and origins of life and the universe. Not one major religion can account for the 200,000+ years of human history before written language and writing technology were invented (by humans). Not one accounts for the 4.5 billion years the earth existed with no human life on it. Not one accounts for the 10 billion years before the earth was formed that that the universe existed. Not one accounts for how or why life has and continues to progress and evolve with no obvious influence from a creator (evolution). Not one explains why an intelligent designer would create viruses, bacteria, cancer, spleens, the need for life to breath oxygen, eat food, or drink water, why there are 3 e^33 star systems in the universe with no obvious reason for existing, why theres a moon, why the earth is round, why we have to revolve around the sun, why there are meteors, why the earth has a crust and a magnetic core, why stars die and create black holes 800000 light years away, why the universe is expanding, why our skin wrinkles as we age, or any of the TRILLIONS of other examples of a how fantastically random, incoherent, and disconnected our universe and life is.

I look out at the world and life every day and see absolutely no rhyme or reason to anything that goes on outside of the anthropomorphic social constructs of humans. There is no reason at all to need God to explain anything that happens here, even in the absence of an explanation of how life initially started or the universe came to be. Everything operates just fine without the influence of a creator and I never have seen a real world need to invent one.

So in the absence of any evidence that a god is needed for this world to exist, why, my religious friend, should an atheist be placed with a burden to prove the NONEXISTENCE (even as we've already said it is logically impossible to prove nonexistence) of a being that supposedly willfully chooses to hide himself from being known?

 

[KokomoJojo]

1.) lol oh look a failed insult, this is a common tactic when a post is factually proven wrong, no shock here lol
2.) nope its EXACTLY why they did and it has ZERO impact to the word athism, this fact isnt going to change no matter how desperately you want it too

here you like to BOLD stuff so lets bold somethign you conveniently choose to ignore

your OWN definition proves you wrong LMAO

here ill qoute it
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

oh look it says it can be a firmly held opinion so therefore a person would know and understand thats all it is, just an opinion not necessarily true

thank you for owning your own post and proving it wrong you dont get to pick and choose to suit your failed and proven wrong statement you have to accept ALL of reality facts and definitions

3.) i agree you cant duck out unless you want to ignore the very own definition you posted thanks again for proving facts right

Atheism is not a religion

let me know when you have ONE fact that makes it otherwise . . . one

When people resort to continual improper application to declare a win they are not equipped to wrap their minds around the subject. I would guess you are an atheist who is emotional attached to the idea and have a great need to keep your world view from crashing down.

I will show you something. We can play a little game;

Give us a "personal" reason why you would or would not shoot a totally innocent person in cold blood.

assume you could get away with it, no possible way to get caught

yes, no, reason format

 

[KokomoJojo]

I wonder why this was so conveniently dodged lol

because you ran off on a tangent, answer the question and you will see.

 

[AGENT J]

because you ran off on a tangent, answer the question and you will see.

no its because you cant do it LMAO

 

[AGENT J]

When people resort to continual improper application to declare a win they are not equipped to wrap their minds around the subject. I would guess you are an atheist who is emotional attached to the idea and have a great need to keep your world view from crashing down.

I will show you something. We can play a little game;

Give us a "personal" reason why you would or would not shoot a totally innocent person in cold blood.

assume you could get away with it, no possible way to get caught

yes, no, reason format

translation: you still cant factually support your claim and are still resorting to failed attack further destroying your own posts. Nobody honest and educated falls for it lol
also FYI im a christian and have much history on this board supporting that, another failed assumption lol

your question is meaningless to atheism, please stay on topic and try again LMAO
your post fails and facts win again

 

[KokomoJojo]

no its because you cant do it LMAO

So you really know the premise is correct, hence the dodged question.

Not if you cheat as you just did

what a waste, this isnt about winners or losers its about understanding.

go to the conspiracy threads you would fit right in with the debunkers.

 

[vash1012]

you dont seem equipped to take this to a level necessary to wrap your mind around it.

You failed to understand that what you said about the court ruling was backwards, and you fail to understand how to apply common words.

be·lief

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.



"something one accepts as true" <-- that applies to atheists

there is simply no place to duck out, unless you want to claim atheists dont believe themselves

You at some point went from trying to argue that atheism is a religion to that it is a belief. I suppose because you want to backend the idea that atheism is a belief into it being a religion since you think the word religion and belief mean the exact same thing which they don't. The only reason anyone is arguing with you regarding this point is because we know you are going to use our statements to say with your circular logic and redefinition of basic words of the human language that atheism is a religion. I am an atheist. The word atheist means I do not have a belief in a god. By the definition you listed, (something I accept to be true) atheism would not be a belief because your definition does not leave room for a negation of belief in something. What IS a belief is the following statement: I believe that there is no God. This is actually NOT the same thing and is NOT the definition of atheism, which literally means the negation of a belief in a god and not the belief in there being no god.

All of this is an silly exercise in using words to make whatever you want sound true. Of course, atheism is basically a belief. Atheism is still not a religion or an ideology by the standard definitions.

 

[vash1012]

So you really know the premise is correct, hence the dodged question.

Not if you cheat as you just did

what a waste, this isnt about winners or losers its about understanding.

go to the conspiracy threads you would fit right in with the debunkers.

Use the standard definition of religion from the dictionary and prove somehow that atheism is a religion by that definition and not the definition of religion you made up, found in an obscure book, or misinterpreted from a supreme court case.

 

[KokomoJojo]

You at some point went from trying to argue that atheism is a religion to that it is a belief. I suppose because you want to backend the idea that atheism is a belief into it being a religion since you think the word religion and belief mean the exact same thing which they don't. The only reason anyone is arguing with you regarding this point is because we know you are going to use our statements to say with your circular logic and redefinition of basic words of the human language that atheism is a religion. I am an atheist. The word atheist means I do not have a belief in a god. By the definition you listed, (something I accept to be true) atheism would not be a belief because your definition does not leave room for a negation of belief in something. What IS a belief is the following statement: I believe that there is no God. This is actually NOT the same thing and is NOT the definition of atheism, which literally means the negation of a belief in a god and not the belief in there being no god.

All of this is an silly exercise in using words to make whatever you want sound true. Of course, atheism is basically a belief. Atheism is still not a religion or an ideology by the standard definitions.

So if I said that you believe God does not exist that would be a false statement is that correct?

 

[The Mark]

Hey, it's a new episode of Forum Debateopcorn2:

 

[KokomoJojo]

Use the standard definition of religion from the dictionary and prove somehow that atheism is a religion by that definition and not the definition of religion you made up, found in an obscure book, or misinterpreted from a supreme court case.

if you arent aware you can wipe your butt with a dictionary in court.

there are thousands of dictionaries the ones I tend to follow are the ones that follow courts and law reviews and philosophical conclusions.

I provided a ruling from cjs, doesnt get too much better than that in america.

How can you say I made it up when I proved a court case? That doesnt make sense

 

[vash1012]

Give us a "personal" reason why you would or would not shoot a totally innocent person in cold blood.

assume you could get away with it, no possible way to get caught

yes, no, reason format

I wouldn't kill someone in cold blood because I've been taught by other humans that it would be wrong and I would feel shame and remorse because of this social conditioning and also because I have absolutely no reason to. Logically it makes no sense to do something that does not benefit me and would make me feel bad and potentially make me suffer legal and social consequences and also ends the potential for productivity and happiness of another human being. So from whatever rational or utilitarian perspective you look at it, there's no way I'd kill someone in cold blood.

In the same vein, I WOULD kill someone in self defense because I've been taught by other humans (including Christians) that this is okay and acceptable and I shouldn't think twice about saving my life from someone who seeks to harm me. Even then I will still probably be traumatized and I know that because of the experiences of many other human beings like myself who have been through that experience.

I don't imagine your experience would be any different unless you are a sociopath. Notice not one of these reasons has anything to do with there being no God or a mention of atheism.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Hey, it's a new episode of Forum Debateopcorn2:

I cant imagine what could possibly be gained but it seems that atheists feel they have something sacred to protect. It seems to me they have greater standing as a religion than a nothing which appears to be what they are trying to convince me they are.

 

[AGENT J]

So you really know the premise is correct, hence the dodged question.

Not if you cheat as you just did

what a waste, this isnt about winners or losers its about understanding.

go to the conspiracy threads you would fit right in with the debunkers.

thats cute you think that works. You dodged the question about this topic not me in post 317. Why post lies about this, nobody is fooled
Multiple posters are still waiting for you to provide one fact that atheism is a religion . . . ONE


let us know when you can do this, until them your posts will continue to fail and facts will continue to win.
We understand you have NOTHING but your OPINIONS and saying "nuh-uh" while facts reality and links have all proven you factually wrong lol
Keep trying the posting of lies and failed insults though, maybe somebody will fall for it :laughat:

ill ask you AGAIN
if you disagree all you have to do is FACTUALLY Prove atheism is a religion

What is FACTUALLY thier belief system?
What is factually thier FAITH
what FACTUALLY do they worship

once you can answer these questions using facts you will have a case until then you got nothing

 

[AGENT J]

Hey, it's a new episode of Forum Debateopcorn2:

yep! always funny when people go agains links, definitions and facts. Its AWESOME

its the 2nd main reason why i come here

 

[AGENT J]

if you arent aware you can wipe your butt with a dictionary in court.

there are thousands of dictionaries the ones I tend to follow are the ones that follow courts and law reviews and philosophical conclusions.

I provided a ruling from cjs, doesnt get too much better than that in america.

How can you say I made it up when I proved a court case? That doesnt make sense

and those ones and that ruling proved you wrong earlier lol
there was NOTHING that that made atheism a religion . . . . nothing LMAO

 

[vash1012]

if you arent aware you can wipe your butt with a dictionary in court.

there are thousands of dictionaries the ones I tend to follow are the ones that follow courts and law reviews and philosophical conclusions.

I provided a ruling from cjs, doesnt get too much better than that in america.

How can you say I made it up when I proved a court case? That doesnt make sense

The supreme court needed to create a backwards way to define freedom of religion in such a way as to allow atheism to be protected under the first amendment because it is obvious that the first amendment should protect the right of a person to be atheist even if the wording doesn't necessarily allow for it. This does not mean that atheism is suddenly now a religion in the real world.

""At one time it was thought that this right [referring to the right to choose one’s own creed] merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Islam or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all."

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

Atheism is the none at all.

"... whether atheism is a 'religion' for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture."

"The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a “religion” for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 545U.S. 844, 125 S.Ct. 2722, 162 L.Ed.2d 729 (2005).   The Establishment Clause itself says only that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls “nonreligion.”   In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as “the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.”  Id. at *10 (internal quotations omitted).   As the Court put it in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 105 S.Ct. 2479, 86 L.Ed.2d 29 (1985): - See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1467028.html#sthash.5QzCtTOG.dpuf"

KAUFMAN v. McCAUGHTRY - FindLaw

IE: Is atheism a 'religion'? Sure, why not. Is it a religion? Nope. Thanks for clearing that up, SC.

So while, yes, there are points in caselaw where the words "atheism is a religion" basically occur, there are as many points where they make a clear distinction between atheism and actual religions.