America's economy grew at its weakest pace since Trump took office

[jonny5]

Obama kept 98.6% of the "Bush" tax rate cuts intact, sightly raising the top marginal rate on the top 1.4% of (personal income) taxpayers. The federal deficit increased during Obama's last two years in office and has increased further despite the House experiencing that great "blue wave" in 2019. What the demorats want along with any federal revenue increases (on the rich) is more federal spending.

Dont forget all the new taxes in Obamacare on high wealth. Revenue isnt our problem.

 

[Kushinator]

I feel like this debate is just going to be the same debate we always have, so Ill just leave you to your echo chamber. See you next week when you post the same thread again!

Why even make this post?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Dont forget all the new taxes in Obamacare on high wealth. Revenue isnt our problem.

Yep, so long as more can be borrowed then there is no problem at all.

 

[jonny5]

Yep, so long as more can be borrowed then there is no problem at all.

Well I mean theres is still the problem of interest and how debt constrains us politically and economically. Certainly its not a problem to pay for spending with borrowing for now.

 

[Metric Mouse]

I’m sorry MM, I think you objecting to my ""literally foamed at the mouth" is just a dodge. I just don’t believe you are unaware of conservatives’ non-stop and unreasonable concern for deficits (is that better?) under President Obama. And now they sit obediently quiet as trump balloons the deficit. Dodging my point doesn’t change those facts.

Anyhoo, at least you now know taxes (or lack of them) are part of the problem. And now you know that the tax cuts did not in any way produce the growth trump promised. Trump ballooned the deficit in a growing economy and he can’t even beat President Obama’s growth.

So no one foamed at the mouth. Good, that would have been extraordinarily odd.

I was pretty young when Obama was presiding over the slowest economic recovery in American history, so I may have missed some things. Not sure why Obama is even mentioned, this thread is about Trump, and Obama had different economic conditions, higher unemployment rates, also passed tax cuts, ran large deficits and had very comparable GDP growth (in percentage terms). Very similar, excepting the lower unemployment rate and actual inflation adjusted wage growth (finally!) under Trump.

I don't think that concerns about deficits are "unreasonable" in most cases, especially in growing stable economies. Of course congress allocates money and sets the tax rates, so any member whinging about deficits does ring pretty hollow.

 

[Kushinator]

Obama kept 98.6% of the "Bush" tax rate cuts intact, sightly raising the top marginal rate on the top 1.4% of (personal income) taxpayers.

Revenue growth is well documented:

The federal deficit increased during Obama's last two years in office and has increased further despite the House experiencing that great "blue wave" in 2019.

The fall in the price of oil put significant strain on the overall economy. Revenue growth screeched to a crawl, and private domestic investment contracted as the fastest growing sector (energy) faced severe contraction. But let's observe budget data for the deficit:

What the demorats want along with any federal revenue increases (on the rich) is more federal spending.

In the end, the only thing that truly matters is for gdp growth to outpace debt growth (nominal terms). Dem's will never run under the mantra of spending cuts.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Well I mean theres is still the problem of interest and how debt constrains us politically and economically. Certainly its not a problem to pay for spending with borrowing for now.

That's what Ponzi said.

 

[Kushinator]

Dont forget all the new taxes in Obamacare on high wealth. Revenue isnt our problem.

Here is the derivative of revenue as a percentage of GDP d(x)dy; where x is 1 year and y is revenue/gdp*100. Or another way to think of this is the annual rate of change in terms of revenue as a percentage of GDP:

We can do the same for the expenditure side:

What does this all mean?

Revenue as a percentage of GDP is shrinking... and expenditures as a percentage of GDP are shrinking. The difference is, it's falling about twice the rate for revenue as it is expenditures. We have a revenue problem.

 

[Conservative]

You're still not comprehending the failure of your own logic. Nominal GDP grew by $1060 billion in 2018. Nominal GDP grew by $848 billion in 2019. That's a decline of roughly $162 billion from 2018 to 2019.

Again... your weak logic works against you.

My weak logic? the 2019 numbers first of all are preliminary but if they are accurate I will indeed take the 848 billion which is higher than anything Obama ever created and puts Trump still at close to 2.5 trillion in 3 years, Obama 4.2 trillion in 8 of which the stimulus is included. You have no logic, just more book stupid comments

 

[Conservative]

But if the amount you're keeping from what you earn doesn't help toward the major life expenditures, what is there to really be celebrating? If the amount of extra money I kept made affording non-employer provided healthcare possible, then sure, that makes sense because keeping more of what I earn affords me various options. This isn't the case though.

Here's the problem you still have, keeping more of what you earn puts you in charge of your own money, not some bureaucrat in D.C. Your control over your spending is personal choice, seems that choice only matters in the liberal world when it comes to abortion. It isn't any companies responsibility to provide for your health insurance nor is it federal taxpayer responsibility, that is between you and your state and local community. Your problem is you cannot sell it so you want it mandated

 

[Conservative]

Again, another "what you don't understand..." in order to promote a self-delusional spin agenda. When one actually tries to brand the globally understood Great Recession as just a minor event in order to exaggerate his need to denigrate Obama, the "you don't understand" matters little. Two points of common sense in which education is not necessary:

- The evidence is clear. The Great Recession proved that Trickle-Down is a con. The wealthy do not create jobs unless the economy tells them that there's money in it, which means that consumers create the jobs, while the wealthy wait. With banks, industry, and and corporations receiving bail-outs, sitting on cash, firing and seizing, clearly they weren't trying to create anything.

- A tax-cut that gives a middle-class family a temporary few extra hundred dollars a year (at best) does not give that family the economic means to change anything or really do anything with. Did you buy more Doritos? However, the tax-cuts that the wealthy increasingly gets has created the 1%, which increasingly captures more and more of America's wealth in the hands of the few who do not invest back into society unless it guarantees even more revenue, in which they turn to their Republican Senators to create even more tax-cuts. The GOP's clear agenda has been to tax the least well-off (as the recent tax-cut proved) while cutting taxes on the wealthy (as the recent tax-cut also proved), the ones who finance the GOP's campaigns and give them a job. So, in a way, I guess the wealthy are job creators in Washington, huh? Strange how you people couldn't figure that out when, despite two ongoing wars and a global recession, Republicans moved to cut taxes every damn year under Bush (a first in American history).

And make no mistake, my partisan Hercules: Democrats cater to the wealthy too. The difference is that the GOP's agenda is solely focused on it, while pretending to you that it cares about your ideological feelings. For example: They will champion the crusade against illegal immigration because you like hearing it. But they help you to ignore the fact that American farmers across America, who hire illegals, routinely vote Republican. Why? Because they know from experience that the rhetoric is BS. In the meantime, the GOP will go with the "build the wall" nonsense as long as it doesn't interfere with their main goal of protecting the wealthy and increasing military spending so that they can look "patriotic."

Stop trying to bend your way around the common sense and start acknowledging that it is you who does not understand. Only then will you start to learn. I certainly didn't become one of our planet's smartest people by refusing to learn. Don't fall for any of Trump's "wisest man" crap. He's never even at our meetings.

When you start out with a sentence that has the "Great Recession" in it, you lose credibility. That is a marketing term to try and shift responsibility to someone else which is all you do. There is no common sense in anything you post and nothing you have posted refutes the official data I posted. then you make it worse, tax cut give away? where in the hell did you get your education? the gov't can't give something away before they get it. A rebate is a give away, a tax cut allows people to keep more of what they EARN. You are dismissed

 

[MSgt]

When you start out with a sentence that has the "Great Recession" in it, you lose credibility. That is a marketing term to try and shift responsibility to someone else...

And here we are. Despite the entire world being affected, markets flipping upside-down, governments heading into bankruptcy, others adopting austerity measures, our own government bailing out failed banks, while 8.8 million Americans lost jobs, you pretend that it was exaggerated from nothing.

And why? Because it is, in fact, a GOP, FOX News driven marketing campaign to focus on the word "Great" while making light of the event, in order to further Republican economic motives and political denigration about "Obama's" recovery. Of course, at the time, the GOP was obnoxiously promoting the disaster as something Obama didn't care about, weren't they?

I'm still waiting for you to place your partisan needs aside and join me where the useful play. I'll even let you hold the ball.

 

[Tbird19482]

You are totally incapable apparently of reading, the data and link have been posted here many times. learn how to do research instead of just buying the left wing opinions. Treasury through BEA.gov will give you the revenue from taxes created to fund discretionary budget items. As I continue to point out you have no idea what taxes you pay or their purpose. Your lack of understanding is staggering

Oh by the way I do know what TOTAL means but total comes from all Taxes paid NOT just the taxes created to fund discretionary items. Do you know what the unified budget is? Have a nice day

so you can post where all the Gov. revenue comes from and there is nothing in there saying that there is x amount of dollars just for discretionary spending
mostly because there is no such thing
the Gov. collects taxes and other revenue ( 3.4 T this year ) and has to pay for mandatory spending first then what is left over is used for discretionary spending
There is no 2 T. for discretionary spending
TOTAL Revenue 3.4 T, mandatory spending almost 2.7 T leaving about 700 Billion dollars NOT 2 T. dollars
have a nice day

 

[Conservative]

And here we are. Despite the entire world being affected, markets flipping upside-down, governments heading into bankruptcy, others adopting austerity measures, our own government bailing out failed banks, while 8.8 million Americans lost jobs, you pretend that it was exaggerated from nothing.

And why? Because it is, in fact, a GOP, FOX News driven marketing campaign to focus on the word "Great" while making light of the event, in order to further Republican economic motives and political denigration about "Obama's" recovery. Of course, at the time, the GOP was obnoxiously promoting the disaster as something Obama didn't care about, weren't they?

I'm still waiting for you to place your partisan needs aside and join me where the useful play. I'll even let you hold the ball.

Why is it I never see proposed solutions from you, just whining, complaining and always placing blame on Republicans

the data I posted is the official data and it really bothers you to see people keeping more of what they earn. Yes, here we are, same tired old left wing rhetoric promoting class envy, jealousy

When confused by data rather than research and verify the data you prefer the claim it comes from Fox News. That is pure partisanship but to you partisanship means keeping more of what you earn and spending it as you see fit not the way the bureaucrats spend it which you are convinced that they spend it in the name of compassion. That compassion goes to the bureaucrats that run the programs that keep people dependent.

 

[Conservative]

so you can post where all the Gov. revenue comes from and there is nothing in there saying that there is x amount of dollars just for discretionary spending
mostly because there is no such thing
the Gov. collects taxes and other revenue ( 3.4 T this year ) and has to pay for mandatory spending first then what is left over is used for discretionary spending
There is no 2 T. for discretionary spending
TOTAL Revenue 3.4 T, mandatory spending almost 2.7 T leaving about 700 Billion dollars NOT 2 T. dollars
have a nice day

You asked where the 2.03 trillion revenue came from, I showed you. I gave you the budget of the United States which defines Discretionary and Mandatory spending line items. your problem is lack of understanding of the taxes you pay and their purpose, Sorry no one can help you out of this ignorance except you and you want to remain mired in that ignorance

 

[Kushinator]

My weak logic? the 2019 numbers first of all are preliminary but if they are accurate I will indeed take the 848 billion which is higher than anything Obama ever created and puts Trump still at close to 2.5 trillion in 3 years, Obama 4.2 trillion in 8 of which the stimulus is included. You have no logic, just more book stupid comments

Your hypocrisy and ignorance have been put on full display.

 

[Conservative]

Your hypocrisy and ignorance have been put on full display.

As is your inability to grasp state and local responsibilities and where these entities get their money, your lack of understanding of how higher taxes impact economic activity, the taxes you pay and their purpose, and any inability to understand the private sector at all

 

[MSgt]

Why is it I never see proposed solutions from you, just whining, complaining and always placing blame on Republicans

Because, currently its the Republicans who have their heads stuck deep in their asses and its you Conservatives who prefer it there. Were you around this site during the Bush years, you would have enjoyed my posts about how shallow, hypocritical, near-sighted, and ignorant Democrats were behaving. Of course, you would have also had to read my posts on how Rumsfeld was the worst SECDEF in our history (...after he was removed, of course). During the Obama years I mostly stayed away because I was somewhat busy and steadily becoming more and more disappointed in Conservative/Republican behavior; and was slowly losing my faith in our government as Democrats proved too weak to confront what the GOP was doing. And here we are today, where "patriotic, troop-supporting" Americans actively seek to remain ignorant of things as they cling to a draft-dodger's every dip**** Tweet and moronic action in the world.

the data I posted is the official data and it really bothers you to see people keeping more of what they earn.

We all use the same official data from the same official sites. I've never declared that you fudged data. But whatever data you produce, you produce it incomplete, out of context, and without realty's narrative. You also avoid the data that presents the truth, ie. the many graphs that put your data into perspective, which is why you are selective about your data and deny economic trends. You present your own narrative (which is FOX News' narrative) and lie about the numbers meaning something it doesn't. This is why your narrative consistently implies that life began only in 2016 when the GDP had dramatically dropped, right before Trump rolled in and waved a magic wand. And as Trump's years have proven exactly what I, others, and the data have always declared, you move goal posts around to cling to the narrative that Trump is sent from the heavens.

But the irony in this partisan game of yours is that were you not so steadfast to paint everything in colors of partisan politics, you would see "Trump's" 2019 2.3% GDP growth as merely a part of the trend he inherited before he injected it for the unnatural temporary gain seen in 2018. The contradiction of government spending and tax cuts were always going to be short-lived. Now that the pace is settling back to where it belongs, you are stuck looking for ways to avoid the partisan game that makes this Trump's fault. Home purchasing and job gains have slowed, because the economy is settling back to where it belongs before Trump ****ed with it for his elite friends (because they really don't like him). This sucks for me because aside from trying to slap sense into you, I now have to deal with Liberals who will want to use this to declare "Trump's" failure. Like I stated, I am the smartest guy you know.

Yes, here we are, same tired old left wing rhetoric promoting class envy, jealousy...

But your default to "class envy" and "left wing rhetoric" falls apart the moment I point out that there are just as many rich liberals as conservatives. No, it's not "left-wing." It's reality; and one that you allow the GOP to deny you through their manipulations of "socialism and communism." The GOP's rich handler's thank you for that loyalty. If you want, and if you are truly open to learn this, I will write up a post explaining exactly what the GOP uses, in terms of economy, to manipulate you into this sort of default dismissal by which you consistently vote against your own interests. I'll even just do it on the down-low to your message box if it means that you will learn from it.

When confused by data rather than research and verify the data you prefer the claim it comes from Fox News.

If I'm confused about this sort of data I ask my very smart and in-demand CPA wife to help clarify. I call you a FOX News disciple because I can turn FOX News on and then log onto this site to find you quoting FOX personality spin. All of you do it. It's as if your meetings adjourn and you run with the daily script. And as we have seen in the past, even Trump does this. This is not found among the Liberals, who get their news and understanding from multiple sources, thus the arguments made by them on these threads tend to be more diverse, but somewhat complimentary to the wider political spectrum. But you Conservatives? From FOX News, into your brains, and onto your keyboards. That's it. This is the result of allowing the GOP to take advantage of your tendencies to relish in conspiracy theories and your desperations to cling to the proverbial past.

 

[Bullseye]

The Obama administration inherited the first financial crisis since the Great Depression. Economic recoveries following financial crises are slow, as the deleveraging period takes time. As of 2017, there were 1.36 million homeowners still underwater.

If you're not aware of this stuff, why on earth are you jumping into a discussion with such a serious knowledge deficiency?



The U.S. was the only advanced economy that experienced significant economic growth following the global financial crisis.

Just realized I forgot to include this.






Those folks still underwater must have bought at the absolute peak.

 

[Conservative]

Because, currently its the Republicans who have their heads stuck deep in their asses and its you Conservatives who prefer it there. Were you around this site during the Bush years, you would have enjoyed my posts about how shallow, hypocritical, near-sighted, and ignorant Democrats were behaving. Of course, you would have also had to read my posts on how Rumsfeld was the worst SECDEF in our history (...after he was removed, of course). During the Obama years I mostly stayed away because I was somewhat busy and steadily becoming more and more disappointed in Conservative/Republican behavior; and was slowly losing my faith in our government as Democrats proved too weak to confront what the GOP was doing. And here we are today, where "patriotic, troop-supporting" Americans actively seek to remain ignorant of things as they cling to a draft-dodger's every dip**** Tweet and moronic action in the world.



We all use the same official data from the same official sites. I've never declared that you fudged data. But whatever data you produce, you produce it incomplete, out of context, and without realty's narrative. You also avoid the data that presents the truth, ie. the many graphs that put your data into perspective, which is why you are selective about your data and deny economic trends. You present your own narrative (which is FOX News' narrative) and lie about the numbers meaning something it doesn't. This is why your narrative consistently implies that life began only in 2016 when the GDP had dramatically dropped, right before Trump rolled in and waved a magic wand. And as Trump's years have proven exactly what I, others, and the data have always declared, you move goal posts around to cling to the narrative that Trump is sent from the heavens.


If I'm confused about this sort of data I ask my very smart and in-demand CPA wife to help clarify. I call you a FOX News disciple because I can turn FOX News on and then log onto this site to find you quoting FOX personality spin. All of you do it. It's as if your meetings adjourn and you run with the daily script. And as we have seen in the past, even Trump does this. This is not found among the Liberals, who get their news and understanding from multiple sources, thus the arguments made by them on these threads tend to be more diverse, but somewhat complimentary to the wider political spectrum. But you Conservatives? From FOX News, into your brains, and onto your keyboards. That's it. This is the result of allowing the GOP to take advantage of your tendencies to relish in conspiracy theories and your desperations to cling to the proverbial past.

Please stop posting novels as I have no time to read your fiction and especially since any response takes me over the maximum allowable by DP.

The text that you have entered is too long (5705 characters). Please shorten it to 5000 characters long.

My head is firmly up the ass of the private sector proponents as that is the only ideology that works and makes any sense. You people buy rhetoric like spending in the name of compassion and never refute actual results. I can understand why you don't understand data as that is a foreign concept to you as you prefer propaganda and rhetoric that makes you feel good about yourself and throwing money at social problems

I do agree with you that there are rich liberals most of whom come across as being guilty about their income but that doesn't change the reality that they are entitled to spend it where they see fit not where a bureaucrat sees fit. Bureaucrats spend money to buy votes and that creates debt and dependence. Reality sucks, doesn't it

How many times do I have to tell you I don't watch Fox News and haven't since my wife died 7 years ago. I do get articles from Fox News but none of the results I posted came from Fox, all from bea.gov, bls.gov and treasury.org. You might want to call them and tell them their data is wrong

Why don't you ask your CPA wife where state and local governments get their money since obviously you don't realize the impact of higher taxes on their revenue stream.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Here's the problem you still have, keeping more of what you earn puts you in charge of your own money, not some bureaucrat in D.C. Your control over your spending is personal choice, seems that choice only matters in the liberal world when it comes to abortion. It isn't any companies responsibility to provide for your health insurance nor is it federal taxpayer responsibility, that is between you and your state and local community. Your problem is you cannot sell it so you want it mandated

I don't have a problem in that I understand the issue just fine. What you haven't addressed is how being in charge of your own money is a benefit if the amount you're not being taxed isn't enough to help you deal with major life necessities like access to healthcare or higher education. Sure, we can say "every person for themselves", but when we see that it's a disservice to many of our fellow Americans it doesn't make much sense to not ask why we can't do better. I find it unacceptable to say that the US is #1 when it lags behind other industrialized nations on a variety of metrics.

Indeed, it isn't a corporation's responsibility to provide healthcare. The problem access to healthcare for many Americans would cease to be affordable if that private subsidy went away. Does that make sense to you? Sure, each state can handle its own health care, but what happens to states which may not have the funding to do so on their own? Do we tell them "tough luck, you should make better choices and be more personally responsible"?

 

[Vern]

So no one foamed at the mouth. Good, that would have been extraordinarily odd.

I was pretty young when Obama was presiding over the slowest economic recovery in American history, so I may have missed some things. Not sure why Obama is even mentioned, this thread is about Trump, and Obama had different economic conditions, higher unemployment rates, also passed tax cuts, ran large deficits and had very comparable GDP growth (in percentage terms). Very similar, excepting the lower unemployment rate and actual inflation adjusted wage growth (finally!) under Trump.

I don't think that concerns about deficits are "unreasonable" in most cases, especially in growing stable economies. Of course congress allocates money and sets the tax rates, so any member whinging about deficits does ring pretty hollow.

If you look at UE and wage growth, you'll see its just a continuing trend from President Obama. Just put "fred graph UE" and "fred graph wage growth" into google. But again, conservatives were apoplectic about deficits for eights years under President Obama and only under President Obama. they have now been absolutely (and obediently) silent about deficits the last 3 years. Cons just refused acknowledge President Obama inherited the massive trillion dollar Bush Deficits (yea, they have a name) and supported everything republicans did even when it involved keeping the debt higher.

The best example of republicans flaming hypocrisy was when President Obama proposed a jobs bill aimed at the long term unemployed (remember, the Great Bush Recession was the worst recession since the depression), deficits was their only concern. With UE at a 25 year low (thanks Obama) they ballooned the deficit to help UE. So republicans worked to sabotage the recovery and undermine the economy. They let Americans suffer and suffer longer for their political gain. Sadly it worked.

 

[Conservative]

I don't have a problem in that I understand the issue just fine. What you haven't addressed is how being in charge of your own money is a benefit if the amount you're not being taxed isn't enough to help you deal with major life necessities like access to healthcare or higher education. Sure, we can say "every person for themselves", but when we see that it's a disservice to many of our fellow Americans it doesn't make much sense to not ask why we can't do better. I find it unacceptable to say that the US is #1 when it lags behind other industrialized nations on a variety of metrics.

Indeed, it isn't a corporation's responsibility to provide healthcare. The problem access to healthcare for many Americans would cease to be affordable if that private subsidy went away. Does that make sense to you? Sure, each state can handle its own health care, but what happens to states which may not have the funding to do so on their own? Do we tell them "tough luck, you should make better choices and be more personally responsible"?

If I wasn't making the money I thought I deserved I wouldn't be in a debate forum complaining about it, I would be out finding a better job. Did you inherit your wealth or did you earn it?

No, it isn't the corporations responsibility to provide healthcare, that is your responsibility to take care of yourself. You certainly have that entitlement mentality always blaming someone else for your own personal problems. Guess I was lucky to have parents who taught me not to expect someone else to pay for my personal responsibility issues, to celebrate success, and to never promote class envy and jealousy of what someone else makes or pays in taxes. Your problem is you seem very naïve for someone who claims to be so well off

 

[Conservative]

If you look at UE and wage growth, you'll see its just a continuing trend from President Obama. Just put "fred graph UE" and "fred graph wage growth" into google. But again, conservatives were apoplectic about deficits for eights years under President Obama and only under President Obama. they have now been absolutely (and obediently) silent about deficits the last 3 years. Cons just refused acknowledge President Obama inherited the massive trillion dollar Bush Deficits (yea, they have a name) and supported everything republicans did even when it involved keeping the debt higher.

The best example of republicans flaming hypocrisy was when President Obama proposed a jobs bill aimed at the long term unemployed (remember, the Great Bush Recession was the worst recession since the depression), deficits was their only concern. With UE at a 25 year low (thanks Obama) they ballooned the deficit to help UE. So republicans worked to sabotage the recovery and undermine the economy. They let Americans suffer and suffer longer for their political gain. Sadly it worked.

Obama isn't in office any more, he is out and a distant memory. Trump has blown his economic results out of the water generating the best economic results for the first three years of any Presidency in history. Keep trying to build up Obama, I know he appreciates it but it doesn't serve much purpose here

 

[ElChupacabra]

If I wasn't making the money I thought I deserved I wouldn't be in a debate forum complaining about it, I would be out finding a better job. Did you inherit your wealth or did you earn it?

No, it isn't the corporations responsibility to provide healthcare, that is your responsibility to take care of yourself. You certainly have that entitlement mentality always blaming someone else for your own personal problems. Guess I was lucky to have parents who taught me not to expect someone else to pay for my personal responsibility issues, to celebrate success, and to never promote class envy and jealousy of what someone else makes or pays in taxes. Your problem is you seem very naïve for someone who claims to be so well off

I earned it and continue to earn it. I also keep my employment and business opportunities wide open by chosing to live in a high population and job area. This helps me find work faster, and an ample customer base for our family business. Your simplistic "well just find another job" etc. doesn't really work for people in areas that have been decimated due to economic/corporate changes. They may not have the choice to find a better job when the only one may be a low end retail or manufacturing job staring at the precipice of automation. What you continue to pay lip service to is that many people in this country would simply not be able to pay for healthcare without some form of subsidy. That "better job" you keep talking about is usually better because it will have a good benefits plan. States which are doing well financially may be able to foot some of the bill, but what do you propose for states which are not?

I'm not naive at all; I'm just not stubborn and stuck on the ideal of "personal responsibility" when looking around across the country shows that there's much more to it. I could just be selfish and not give a toss about anyone else because I'm doing very well, but that to me seems really unAmerican.