America's economy grew at its weakest pace since Trump took office

[MSgt]

Which is no different than you, so what is your point. Mine is that I am in the majority based upon the poll numbers on the economy. You remain as always in the minority on every major issue in this country.

That doesn't say much since most of America doesn't understand economy, their own personal politics, nor Foreign Policy. This is exactly why the GOP gets away with its lies about you being overtaxed, the unfair burden of the rich, concealment tactics (such as 9-9-9-), smokescreens on capital gains, and lies about "class warfare" to get away with its true goal of catering to their wealthy benefactors.

I will try again because I, apparently, haven't completely given up hope for you:

Trump's only true guilt when it comes to the economy is that he took undue credit for the trend he inherited as FOX News promoted His greatness. You people ate it up because many of you simply don't know any better. Now that the US economy grew at the weakest pace of Trump's presidency in 2019, perhaps now you will accept that the American economy is linked closely to the global economy. As it starts to lose strength and momentum, ours starts to lose strength and momentum. This is why Clinton (with the IMF) rushed to deal with the 1997 Asian financial crisis. And as our economy loses strength and momentum, the globe loses strength and momentum, which is why our depressions and recessions screw everybody up...which in turn comes right back to our ability to recover.

It didn't help that the GOP spent years sabotaging our recovery while playing games with Obama, and that Trump is still playing senseless, egocentric trade war games, but in the end these political games merely slow recovery and hinder health. They do not wreck. As can be seen, despite the weak growth in 2019, our economy maintained a solid enough pace to keep the record-long expansion on track in its 11th year. Do you know why? It's because what occurred in 2018 was man-made in that Trump injected his B12 shot to certain industries for the quick cash grab (such as rolling back Obama-era environmental protections). Where people are stating that our growth has slowed, I see that our economy is just trying to get back to a natural pace. I would really prefer that you and others simply listen to me because while others like to declare that they should be listened to, I am actually properly educated and smart:




And do you now see how stupid it was to cling to Trump's denigration that Obama never "created" an annual 3.0%? Are we to assume that Trump has simply decided not to wave his magic wand? Or are we going to default right back into that partisan game of yours and seek ways to blame it on Democrats cuz "socialism" and "illegal aliens?" If we do one year see a 3.0% under Trump, it will because the markets took us there, not because Trump "created" it.

Perhaps, albeit slow, you are starting to figure out how your partisan games don't exactly jive with reality.

 

[Obscurity]

I have made no such claim. I have offered ample proof that current federal revenue is insufficient to cover current federal spending and no amount of spin on your part is going to alter that fact. The basic (root cause of the?) problem is that federal revenue is at about 17% of GDP while federal spending is at about 20% of GDP - no matter how big GDP gets it will not fix that basic imbalance.

Seems some folks cannot do basic math, and the endless proliferation of the warmonger state and the endless crusade of imperial occupation.

None of them care, because right now, the tea party is hugged so tight to Trump's nutsack you can't tell them from a skintag.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yes but like most liberals you are looking at the unified budget and not addressing the real problem which isn't discretionary spending, it is the abuse of our dollars by the Congress for decades. Trump is taking a hit over the deficit growing but has little control over the items that are really causing that deficit.

Look, that was an issue for Obama and all previous presidents as well, but Obama's problem was purely revenue related as his shovel ready jobs stimulus didn't create the shovel ready jobs and his interest expense was half of what Trump's is

Why is it you and others have a problem with people keeping more of what they earn? How has that reduced the revenue as the facts don't show that. Further the facts are state and local coffers are setting records that wouldn't have happened without the tax cuts so rather than look purely at Federal revenue why aren't you and others looking at the benefits created by the tax cuts and the real problem with the deficit, entitlement/mandatory spending which is what Congress has to tackle but won't because that buys votes

That (bolded above) is true, but it would be political suicide to declare that cuts in "entitlement" benefits to the elderly and/or disabled are necessary simply to avoid raising federal tax revenue. The closest that anyone gets to that "third rail" of "entitlement" reform is to propose that more "means testing" be done - to be accomplished by rasing federal taxes only on "the rich" and/or cutting "entitlement" benefits for those with other income (well) above the poverty line.

 

[Kushinator]

That is your opinion as once again you believe we would have the same economic activity without the tax cuts.

The economy was stronger in 2017 (no tax cuts) than it has been in 2018 and 2019. Are you crazy?

Furthermore, revenue growth has stalled:

Notice the revenue growth for FY 2013, when Obama allowed the Bush tax cuts to expire for the highest income tax bracket.

You cannot prove that. You cannot prove that over 6.6 million jobs(new taxpayers) would have been created without that pro growth economic policies.

I can make an argument that is far more persuasive than the trash you're putting forth.

Annual job creation by year:

We were growing jobs before Trump got elected, before his stimulus, and after his stimulus at a rate of about 2.2+ million per year since 2012. This level of employment growth was going to happen whether or not Trump won the Presidency or passed his tax cuts and regulatory cuts.

You cannot prove that state and local coffers would be setting records now without the tax cuts

I can show that they were setting records every other year before the tax cuts. Do you dispute this fact?

that charities wouldn't be receiving record revenue or the companies wouldn't be paying record dividends.

I can show this to be the case prior to the election or the passage of his tax cuts/regulatory cuts.

Your entire focus is on Federal gov't revenue and not federal gov't expenses that should be shifted back to the states particularly all social spending excluding SS and Medicare which are funded by FICA

I'm not here to entertain your opinions of the roles of government. It is what it is, and no amount of fantasy negates the reality of our situation. The Trump economy is built entirely on government spending/deficits.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Seems some folks cannot do basic math, and the endless proliferation of the warmonger state and the endless crusade of imperial occupation.

None of them care, because right now, the tea party is hugged so tight to Trump's nutsack you can't tell them from a skintag.

It always sounds (seems?) nice to propose cutting "defense" (war monger and nation building?) spending, but even if 100% of the DoD budget (obviously, mission impossible) was cut it would not eliminate the annual federal "budget" deficit. Even having a 50% reduction in "defense" spending (also mission impossible, politically) would only put about a $400B (significant) dent in our $1T annual federal "budget" deficit.

 

[Obscurity]

It always sounds (seems?) nice to propose cutting "defense" (war monger and nation building?) spending, but even if 100% of the DoD budget (obviously, mission impossible) was cut it would not eliminate the annual federal "budget" deficit. Even having a 50% reduction in "defense" spending (also mission impossible, politically) would only put about a $400B (significant) dent in our $1T annual federal "budget" deficit.

It's necessary. I support a defense budget. Not an endless occupation budget.

 

[Conservative]

That doesn't say much since most of America doesn't understand economy, their own personal politics, nor Foreign Policy. This is exactly why the GOP gets away with its lies about you being overtaxed, the unfair burden of the rich, concealment tactics (such as 9-9-9-), smokescreens on capital gains, and lies about "class warfare" to get away with its true goal of catering to their wealthy benefactors.

I will try again because I, apparently, haven't completely given up hope for you:

It didn't help that the GOP spent years sabotaging our recovery while playing games with Obama, and that Trump is still playing senseless, egocentric trade war games, but in the end these political games merely slow recovery and hinder health. They do not wreck. As can be seen, despite the weak growth in 2019, our economy maintained a solid enough pace to keep the record-long expansion on track in its 11th year. Do you know why? It's because what occurred in 2018 was man-made in that Trump injected his B12 shot to certain industries for the quick cash grab (such as rolling back Obama-era environmental protections). Where people are stating that our growth has slowed, I see that our economy is just trying to get back to a natural pace. I would really prefer that you and others simply listen to me because while others like to declare that they should be listened to, I am actually properly educated and smart:

View attachment 67272830


And do you now see how stupid it was to cling to Trump's denigration that Obama never "created" an annual 3.0%? Are we to assume that Trump has simply decided not to wave his magic wand? Or are we going to default right back into that partisan game of yours and seek ways to blame it on Democrats cuz "socialism" and "illegal aliens?" If we do one year see a 3.0% under Trump, it will because the markets took us there, not because Trump "created" it.

Perhaps, albeit slow, you are starting to figure out how your partisan games don't exactly jive with reality.

No, it is a waste of time dealing with your novels mostly macro economics which don't resonate with the American people. Those so called GOP lies you claim have led to a 55% approval rating for Trump on the economy as he has generated the following results that you want to ignore. Apparently human beings are a foreign concept to people like you as they don't give a damn about chained dollars(inflation adjusted) but they do care about their bank account and the jobs being created.

As for the GOP sabotaging the Obama recovery, tell us exactly what Obama wanted his first term that he didn't get, in particular 2009-2010? Explain to us all how bailing out unions and teachers creating something called saved jobs benefited the federal treasury and brought us out of recession? 9.3 trillion dollars added to the debt to generate the worst recovery in American history is what Obama will be noted for

As with most liberals you want to focus on percentage change and not dollar growth. It is dollars that drive people to the polls not percentage change. You actually believe that the American people give a damn about the predicted 3% GDP Growth or do they care more about keeping more of what they earn and their bank statements?

You think African Americans aren't recognizing the Trump results as their unemployment rate is more than 2% better than Obama left us with? Your loyalty to Obama and ignorance of the American public is staggering. Here is what the American people feel

DP and Dollar change
2013 16974.9
2014 17527.7 552,8
2015 18224.8 697.1
2016 18715.0 490.2
2017 19519.4 804.4
2018 20580.2 1006.1 Notice the drop from 697 billion growth to 490 billion growth then the surge. Trump inherited the 18.7 economy that is now approaching 22 trillion


Then there is this which Trump inherited and the comparison today. Anyone that claims the GDP growth now is similar to what Obama had is the true hack and totally has no credibility

2016 GDP growth 490 billion 1.6% annual vs 804 billion annual growth to over a trillion in 2018-2019
Unemployment Rate 4.7% January 2017 vs. 3.5% today

Employed 152.2 million January 2017 to 158.8 million today so 6 million job growth from 2008 to 2017(146 million to 152 million) is celebrated but 6.6 million growth I the last two years isn't!! LOL

U-6 in January 2017 9.3% vs 6.7% today? Wow!! 2.6% better U-6 obviously meaningless to you

Part time for economic reasons, 5.7 million January 2017 vs. 4.3 million today? Looks to me that incredible job growth you claim was boosted by part time jobs

African American unemployment 8.0% vs. 5.9% today? That explains the surge in support from African Americans for Trump

 

[Kushinator]

It always sounds (seems?) nice to propose cutting "defense" (war monger and nation building?) spending, but even if 100% of the DoD budget (obviously, mission impossible) was cut it would not eliminate the annual federal "budget" deficit. Even having a 50% reduction in "defense" spending (also mission impossible, politically) would only put about a $400B (significant) dent in our $1T annual federal "budget" deficit.

And let's be honest... you can't cut social spending without taking a serious dent out of the economy. If we want to get the budget in order, there is only one true path. Raise taxes on the highest income earners and freeze spending growth. That strategy will put headwinds on the economy, but it's the only legitimate option.

 

[Conservative]

That (bolded above) is true, but it would be political suicide to declare that cuts in "entitlement" benefits to the elderly and/or disabled are necessary simply to avoid raising federal tax revenue. The closest that anyone gets to that "third rail" of "entitlement" reform is to propose that more "means testing" be done - to be accomplished by rasing federal taxes only on "the rich" and/or cutting "entitlement" benefits for those with other income (well) above the poverty line.

Yes, we agree HOWEVER that isn't what the left is even addressing as all the blame is being placed on the President. What the left is ignoring are the return on investment that American people are receiving because of the Trump economy vs. what they received prior. The point remains, it isn't the Trump spending causing the problems it is the entitlement and debt service.

 

[MSgt]

That is your opinion as once again you believe we would have the same economic activity without the tax cuts. You cannot prove that.

Oh good god! Do you people make a genuine effort to avoid any and all material that doesn't promote your world-view? The economists were clear that the tax-cut was about the rich and that it would increase the deficit. Now that it has happened and most all economists declare that the tax-cut did this, you simply move the goal posts. But you are hypocritical about it:

- You refused this truth in 2017.

- You now argue that deficits don't matter.

- All the while, and at the same time, arguing that there's no proof.

Given that the growth rate has slowed back to the natural pace that Trump inherited, and that unemployment rates are supposed to compliment economic growth, I would say that the proof is smacking you in the face. You don't need me to help you with this, yet there you are stuck in your partisan game. Trump to the end, right? Just like Nixon.

Your entire focus is on Federal gov't revenue and not federal gov't expenses that should be shifted back to the states particularly all social spending excluding SS and Medicare which are funded by FICA

AGAIN! You had no problem cheering for a tax-cut that was meant to solely benefit the wealthy, which also significantly reduced government revenue....while shrugging and supporting your GOP's significant increase in government spending! You move the goal posts in order to argue that all that increased spending needs to shift to the states, as if that was the intended goal. It never was!

- In the meantime, Trump launches his highly public trade-war crusade with China in order to boost his false status as a "tough guy," while handing bail-outs to American farmers (socialism), all the while ignoring the fact that he needs China to help him with his egocentric game with North Korea.

- In the meantime, to try to deal with a decrease in government revenue and an increase in government spending (a GOP staple since Reagan), the Treasury has had to issue ever more American bonds to foreign countries like China, who is actively playing a long-game for global influence while we slumber in our domestic partisan stupidity and ignorance.

You get to own all of this, and so much more, because for three years you have bent completely over for Trump's misbehavior, poor decisions, and bad policies. You did this with your blind support and irrational hatred for "the left" and you don't get to pretend that you can sneak your way unseen back into the realm of the rational.

 

[MSgt]

No, it is a waste of time...

Exactly. Playing obtuse games and hating "the left" is all that defines you people anymore.

 

[Conservative]

The economy was stronger in 2017 (no tax cuts) than it has been in 2018 and 2019. Are you crazy?

Furthermore, revenue growth has stalled:

Notice the revenue growth for FY 2013, when Obama allowed the Bush tax cuts to expire for the highest income tax bracket.



I can make an argument that is far more persuasive than the trash you're putting forth.

Annual job creation by year:

We were growing jobs before Trump got elected, before his stimulus, and after his stimulus at a rate of about 2.2+ million per year since 2012. This level of employment growth was going to happen whether or not Trump won the Presidency or passed his tax cuts and regulatory cuts.



I can show that they were setting records every other year before the tax cuts. Do you dispute this fact?



I can show this to be the case prior to the election or the passage of his tax cuts/regulatory cuts.



I'm not here to entertain your opinions of the roles of government. It is what it is, and no amount of fantasy negates the reality of our situation. The Trump economy is built entirely on government spending/deficits.

That is a bunch of liberal bull**** as it really bothers you that the American taxpayers are getting to keep more of what they earn. You have no understanding of human beings and what drives them to the polls, nor do you have any understanding of the real BLS.gov data showing how the employment numbers were skewed by part time for economic reason employment. That shows you are just another clueless leader as to what motivates human beings, INCENTIVE!!

Of course you aren't here to entertain the roles of the state and local governments because you are nothing more than a big gov't nanny state liberal who couldn't survive without a wage slave job probably created by the federal gov't. Your ideology isn't what our founders created

As for state and local government by all means post the DATA, not the slope of the line graph

 

[ttwtt78640]

And let's be honest... you can't cut social spending without taking a serious dent out of the economy. If we want to get the budget in order, there is only one true path. Raise taxes on the highest income earners and freeze spending growth. That strategy will put headwinds on the economy, but it's the only legitimate option.

The political (congress critter) class is hesitant (to be overly kind and respectful) to stick it to the donor class and will never do so as long as they continue to enjoy re-election rates of over 90%. Borrow and spend continues to be politically popular, thus it will continue as our federal "budget" policy.

 

[Kushinator]

DP and Dollar change
2013 16974.9
2014 17527.7 552,8
2015 18224.8 697.1
2016 18715.0 490.2
2017 19519.4 804.4
2018 20580.2 1006.1 Notice the drop from 697 billion growth to 490 billion growth then the surge. Trump inherited the 18.7 economy that is now approaching 22 trillion

Why did you omit the 2019 nominal GDP? Oh wait that's right... notice the drop from $1.060 trillion to $848 billion:

This is the 4th time i've had to call you out for such dishonesty. In one post, you literally calculated the 2019 nGDP growth incorrectly so push your partisan agenda. When i pointed the failure to do basic arithmetic... you didn't even flinch.

 

[Conservative]

Oh good god! Do you people make a genuine effort to avoid any and all material that doesn't promote your world-view? The economists were clear that the tax-cut was about the rich and that it would increase the deficit. Now that it has happened and most all economists declare that the tax-cut did this, you simply move the goal posts. But you are hypocritical about it:

- You refused this truth in 2017.

- You now argue that deficits don't matter.

- All the while, and at the same time, arguing that there's no proof.

Given that the growth rate has slowed back to the natural pace that Trump inherited, and that unemployment rates are supposed to compliment economic growth, I would say that the proof is smacking you in the face. You don't need me to help you with this, yet there you are stuck in your partisan game. Trump to the end, right? Just like Nixon.



AGAIN! You had no problem cheering for a tax-cut that was meant to solely benefit the wealthy, which also significantly reduced government revenue....while shrugging and supporting your GOP's significant increase in government spending! You move the goal posts in order to argue that all that increased spending needs to shift to the states, as if that was the intended goal. It never was!

- In the meantime, Trump launches his highly public trade-war crusade with China in order to boost his false status as a "tough guy," while handing bail-outs to American farmers (socialism), all the while ignoring the fact that he needs China to help him with his egocentric game with North Korea.

- In the meantime, to try to deal with a decrease in government revenue and an increase in government spending (a GOP staple since Reagan), the Treasury has had to issue ever more American bonds to foreign countries like China, who is actively playing a long-game for global influence while we slumber in our domestic partisan stupidity and ignorance.

You get to own all of this, and so much more, because for three years you have bent completely over for Trump's misbehavior, poor decisions, and bad policies. You did this with your blind support and irrational hatred for "the left" and you don't get to pretend that you can sneak your way unseen back into the realm of the rational.

Do you ever address the actual results or simply post left wing talking points? Tax cuts for the rich???? Why do you give a damn and how do you give a FIT cut to people who don't pay FIT?? Your hero, Obama gave the people a FICA tax holiday which cut funding for SS and Medicare. That fact escapes people like you

Your hatred of Trump has blinded you to the reality that we are private sector economy that doesn't support your ideology. GDP Growth today is coming from consumer spending not gov't spending and that seems to bother you. Much of Obama's GDP growth was due to the stimulus spending and massive increase in the role of gov't spending as a percentage of GDP, more like that European economy you seem to want here

I would like to address the DECREASE in federal revenue but the problem is I cannot find that decrease. You speculate and ignore the reality of the budget which I have explained here over and over all of which apparently is too detailed for you and went over your head. You tell me how 2.035 in Revenue collected from taxes established to fund the discretionary budget causes deficits??

Trump's so called misbehavior hasn't bothered me at all because he has done nothing that has hurt you, your family or the country

 

[Conservative]

Why did you omit the 2019 nominal GDP? Oh wait that's right... notice the drop from $1.060 trillion to $848 billion:

This is the 4th time i've had to call you out for such dishonesty. In one post, you literally calculated the 2019 nGDP growth incorrectly so push your partisan agenda. When i pointed the failure to do basic arithmetic... you didn't even flinch.

Think the American people react to Nominal GDP dollars?? You have no understanding of people just your liberal arrogance and so called book smarts

 

[Kushinator]

That is a bunch of liberal bull****

Ha... imagine that, facts are just a bunch of liberal bull****.

as it really bothers you that the American taxpayers are getting to keep more of what they earn.

Nope.

You have no understanding of human beings and what drives them to the polls

You've not been able to demonstrate this claim.

nor do you have any understanding of the real BLS.gov data showing how the employment numbers were skewed by part time for economic reason employment.

My knowledge and familiarity of data and analytics is exponentially superior to that of yours. It's not even a question.

As for state and local government by all means post the DATA, not the slope of the line graph

Are you saying that there wasn't record state and local revenue in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016?

:lamo

 

[Kushinator]

Think the American people react to Nominal GDP dollars?? You have no understanding of people just your liberal arrogance and so called book smarts

This is your warped logic. Nominal GDP growth fell from $1060 billion in 2018 to $848 billion in 2019. So by your warped logic, are we to claim the economy is doing poorly? That's been your (weak) mantra for roughly a year, when the Trump economy failed to achieve the 3% real GDP growth figure that you and all the Trump bots were projecting. After he failed you, this new shift to nominal GDP was the norm.

What do you have to say for yourself?

 

[ElChupacabra]

Think the American people react to Nominal GDP dollars?? You have no understanding of people just your liberal arrogance and so called book smarts

The failure on your end in this regard is that everyone shares the same criteria for what drives them to the polls. Everything from ideology, to likability play factors in how people vote. You tend to project your values on everyone and assume all must think the same.

 

[ElChupacabra]

This is your warped logic. Nominal GDP growth fell from $1060 billion in 2018 to $848 billion in 2019. So by your warped logic, are we to claim the economy is doing poorly? That's been your (weak) mantra for roughly a year, when the Trump economy failed to achieve the 3% real GDP growth figure that you and all the Trump bots were projecting. After he failed you, this new shift to nominal GDP was the norm.

What do you have to say for yourself?

That you're a leftist radical?

 

[Kushinator]

The political (congress critter) class is hesitant (to be overly kind and respectful) to stick it to the donor class and will never do so as long as they continue to enjoy re-election rates of over 90%. Borrow and spend continues to be politically popular, thus it will continue as our federal "budget" policy.

I don't believe the Democrats have any problem raising taxes on the rich.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I don't believe the Democrats have any problem raising taxes on the rich.

Sure they do or it would have been done long before now. The demorats appear to be more interested in expanding federal power (adding more spending programs) than in paying for existing power (current spending programs). Name one current DNC POTUS candidate who is running on simply raising taxes (on anyone) without adding more federal spending programs.

 

[Kushinator]

Sure they do or it would have been done long before now.

The Obama administration allowed the Bush tax cuts to expire on the wealthy in 2013. Afterward, we seen true deficit reduction as revenues grew and temporary government stimulus measures waned.

The demorats appear to be more interested in expanding federal power (adding more spending programs) than in paying for existing power (current spending programs). Name one current DNC POTUS candidate who is running on simply raising taxes (on anyone) without adding more federal spending programs.

I agree that the only way to get a spending freeze is through bipartisanship. The Dem's wont do it on their own.

 

[jonny5]

Ok, what spending would you cut that would trim a trillion dollars?

Don't fool yourself into thinking Trump's growth rate is better than Obama's. It isn't -- and Obama did it without slashing taxes on the rich and corporations.

It is, but not by much anymore on average. Excluding the recession Obama averaged 2.1%. Trump is at 2.5%. And we got it while having lower taxes on everyone and corporations.

But cut everything. You name it, Ill cut it. Lets start with a 10% across the board cut. Or just no spending increases for 5 years. Or pick anything in here that cuts spending. Im ok with even a gradual decrease over time so long as we actually get there, start to pay of the debt and stay there.

Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2019 to 2028 | Congressional Budget Office

 

[jonny5]

It's necessary. I support a defense budget. Not an endless occupation budget.

Its not the first thing we should cut though. Its the most important thing govt does, one of its actual powers, and we spend a lot more on other things which arent. But I have no problem cutting it too.