A Question To Pro-Choice People

[prometeus]

No

So then why the hell did you make your idiotic comment?

 

[prometeus]

So you don't accept that PP is using taxpayer money for their operations, a large part of which is supporting abortions?

So you believe the talking point fed to you instead of educating yourself. Expected.

 

[tosca1]

She chooses what is best for her and deals with the failure rates. Having a baby or abortion - her choice- not yours.

What's that got to do with what we're talking about? We're talking about the effectiveness of contraceptives - you were the one who initiated that line of conversation.

Wouldn't it be good, I quipped, if technology can come up with something even better than IUD?
What got you upset? :lol:


Lol.....why do you guys prefer to talk about the killings, even when we're trying to talk about prevention? :lol: I'm inclined to believe that having to kill your unborn, has become like a badge of "honor" to pro-choice people.

Gee, how many pro-choice women I wonder, got the number of times they'd had abortion tatooed on their behind? :mrgreen:



Yes, I know that right now, the law gives women the option of killing their unborn. No one denies that.
That's something we hope to change.

 

[smallvoice]

So you believe the talking point fed to you instead of educating yourself. Expected.

No one has "fed" me anything. You, on the other hand...

 

[prometeus]

No one has "fed" me anything.

So you came up with the stupidity you post all by yourself? Not likely...

 

[AGENT J]

If your only main argument supporting the legalized murder of the unborn, is that the woman has the sole right to her body......

.....why does it matter to you if the baby is human, or not?


In other words, why do you go out of your way trying to prove the unborn is not a human being?

Well here we are over 500 posts and the OP is still a complete failure.

lets review the facts that prove wrong

FACTS:
1.) abortion =/= murder
2.) all stages of life are human (adj) i dont know anybody that says different nor do i know anybody it "matters" too
3.) ive never seen anybody go out of their way to prove the unborn is not a human being because a fetus is a human being.

Do you have all these examples you speak of that would even make it logical in anyway to assume what you posted could rationally be a pro-choice stance . . if you cant then your OP completely fails . . . please post them now, thanks!

can ANYBODY support the OP . . ANYBODY . . can anybody post ONE fact that makes it true . . one? let u know, thanks!

 

[Lursa]

So you came up with the stupidity you post all by yourself? Not likely...

Not only that, Minnie and I both posted sourced facts that prove he's wrong.

Why do people write like they want to look stupid? I'll never get that.

 

[prometeus]

Not only that, Minnie and I both posted sourced facts that prove he's wrong.

Why do people write like they want to look stupid? I'll never get that.

Oh they don't want to be, but then there is reality...

 

[Lursa]

What's that got to do with what we're talking about? We're talking about the effectiveness of contraceptives - you were the one who initiated that line of conversation.

So let's get back on topic then:

Contraceptives won't work if women won't use them! :shrug:

Yes, the people that are just looking to blame women will say that....it's what they want to believe. Why do you want to believe that of women? Please tell me.

Now I can give you straight numbers...simple math...that unbiased, honest, intelligent people understand:

--birth control methods, even properly and consistently used, are only about 98% effective.

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times a day, every day.

--with the error rate in birth control, this means that there will still be 10's of thousands of accidental pregnancies *every day.*

Now...care to rethink your perceptions based on reality instead of prejudice?​

 

[lurchadams]

This thread is not about Trump, either.

No it's about tight-assed right-wing, hypocritical religious nutjobs trying to dictate how others should behave while doing whatever they want in their own house.

Need I clarify further?

 

[Scrabaholic]

If you haven't figured it out, you aren't worth wasting time answering, because you don't understand the answer. You may leave anytime you want.

Still can't answer it, eh?

 

[D_NATURED]

Re: @ least two errors there

Wrong. You should say "The unborn allegedly feels and knows nothing."

It's irrelevant what they feel and or know. Speculating about it is a fools pastime.

 

[tosca1]

No it's about tight-assed right-wing, hypocritical religious nutjobs trying to dictate how others should behave while doing whatever they want in their own house.

Need I clarify further?

You seem........furious?

 

[snakestretcher]

No it's about tight-assed right-wing, hypocritical religious nutjobs trying to dictate how others should behave while doing whatever they want in their own house.

Need I clarify further?

Bravo, I couldn't have said it better myself. Fundamentalist evangelical nuttery is at the root of this, and you can't argue with stupid. As long as there's something in their dumb book condemning whatever, that's all they need to know. Reality doesn't enter into it. What a sad, miserable and joyless life they must lead, in fear of their 'god'.

 

[snakestretcher]

You seem........furious?

No, he's just posting the truth.

 

[lurchadams]

You seem........furious?

You seem....... puritanical, delusional, misogynistic and ignorant.

 

[lurchadams]

Bravo, I couldn't have said it better myself. Fundamentalist evangelical nuttery is at the root of this, and you can't argue with stupid. As long as there's something in their dumb book condemning whatever, that's all they need to know. Reality doesn't enter into it. What a sad, miserable and joyless life they must lead, in fear of their 'god'.

"Fear"! Says it right there. Why should we "fear" an entity that has our best interests at heart? Is G*d like an abusive parent? Follow his direction and you won't get the crap beat out of you?

"Conservatives" are deeply motivated by fear. trump's been using that personality flaw for 3 years on his weak-minded, terrified flock.

 

[Ursula]

If your only main argument supporting the legalized murder of the unborn, is that the woman has the sole right to her body......

.....why does it matter to you if the baby is human, or not?


In other words, why do you go out of your way trying to prove the unborn is not a human being?

I did not read all the pages of this thread, so I'm sorry if I repeat anything. I'm jumping on just to give my perspective on the OP's original question. This is gonna be long. If you don't like that, then don't read it.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me whether you consider a non-viable fetus human or not. My pro choice stance remains and here is why.

Many people do not believe a fetus is human. Just because something contains human DNA does not make it a human. We all shed skin cells containing our own DNA every day. About 50% of all fertilized eggs never implant on the uterine wall and are flushed out with a woman's period. Should we have a funeral and report possible human death every time a sexually active woman has her period? Most people think not. Even most pro-lifers agree this is ridiculous. I personally am of the opinion that an apple seed is not an apple tree any more than an embryo is a person. Yes, it has the potential to become one, but is not currently. Many pro choicers will state their position on this to help pro-lifers understand that if we don't see a non-viable fetus as human, we don't see abortion as murder at all.

I am also aware that the moment when a person becomes a person is a matter of opinion. Religion and personal belief plays a huge role, and I can respect that. I can understand why someone might think a fetus is a person. The potential is there, where there is no potential in a shed skin cells, and I'm not going to argue with them. But if we play by those rules abortion should still be a choice to a point.

Even a born person is not considered alive if they don't have measureable brain waves and cannot sustain vital organ function off of life support. If we treat an unborn fetus as any other person they are legally dead until they reach at least 20 weeks gestation. Some medical journals identify this point as late as 25 weeks, at or near the point if viability.

If you still believe a fetus is human and the potential for them to develop brain waves, and therefore consiousness, makes halting this process, and therefore abortion, wrong, then so be it. I will not argue this either.

Then you must think of any other living person who has the potential to continue life with the help of another. Forcing a person to donate a piece of their liver or a kidney to save the life of another is not legal, and very few argue for it to become legal, because we all have bodily autonomy. We must volunteer our bodies to help others. We cannot be forced to undergo risky medical procedures even if it might mean life for another. Even in death, we or our family members must make a willing choice for us to do so.

How does this relate to pregnancy? Pregnancy and childbirth is a sacrifice and a risk. People say abortion is doing something while letting the pregnancy continue is doing nothing, justifying the stance by saying all a woman has to do is nothing and she saves the life inside her. Pregnancy and childbirth is definitely not doing nothing. It is a huge undertaking, physically and financially.

Even with modern medicine 700 American women will die from pregnancy complications each year. More than 50,000 will suffer devestating complications resulting in things including permanent kidney or brain damage, heart attacks, and infections. All statistics from the CDC. Less than 10 American women die from legal abortion annually, sometimes none at all, depending on the year. Legal abortions carry much less risk than carrying a pregnancy to full term. Obviously illegal abortion is much less safe, but legal abortions performed in controlled environments by qualified medical professionals are very safe and minimally invasive.

Even if you don't have any medical complications, pregnancy can be financially devistating. Medical bills for a normal vaginal delivery are often over $5000 out of pocket for women with insurance, and can cost over $30,000 for women without insurance. Most employers do not offer paid maternity leave and women are often off work for 6-12 weeks. All those missed wages on top of the medical bills, can be a big problem. The cost of a first trimester abortion is a one time cost of $350-950 and you're back to work in a day.

Whether you believe a non-viable fetus is a person or not is irrelevant. You can't force someone to sacrifice their health, financial stability, or possibly even their own life for another. It does, however, make that pill easier to swallow if you don't think a non-viable fetus is a person.

 

[tosca1]

Whether you believe a non-viable fetus is a person or not is irrelevant. You can't force someone to sacrifice their health, financial stability, or possibly even their own life for another. It does, however, make that pill easier to swallow if you don't think a non-viable fetus is a person.

You do believe that she does have sole autonomy of her body, don't you?
If that's the case, how could she have allowed a life to be created inside her?

Please, don't even get into the silly "faulty" contraceptives, or "birthing fatality rates" argument that some here have been peddling! Everything in life comes with a risks.
Just like every time we get into a car, we put ourselves on the risk of being a road fatality....every time a woman have unprotected sex, she puts herself on the risk of getting pregnant.
And, if condom isn't the contraceptive - then, she also put herself at risk of getting STD.


Do you think the spread of STD isn't reason enough for everyone to insist on using condoms?

 

[Lursa]

You do believe that she does have sole autonomy of her body, don't you?
If that's the case, how could she have allowed a life to be created inside her?

Please, don't even get into the silly "faulty" contraceptives, or "birthing fatality rates" argument that some here have been peddling! Everything in life comes with a risks.

And she has to accept the risk of pregnancy. She cant escape consequences if she gets pregnant. You just dont like that she has choices in which consequences she accepts.

no women that gets pregnant can avoid paying the consequences, there is no escape. There are only 4 scenarios:

--she has a kid
--miscarriage
--abortion
--dying during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer permanent health damage from the first 3 too.​

If she doesnt want a child and realizes it's wrong to have a kid just to put it up for adoption (when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting for homes)...why should she make a choice that is a much higher risk to her life and health? She has commitments and obligations to others...her family, her community, her employer, society, etc.

Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy/childbirth. What right do you have to tell a woman what risks she must take with her own life and disregard the effects on her family, her dependents?

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.

Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.

Abortion safer than giving birth: study | Reuters

 

[Lursa]

Please, don't even get into the silly "faulty" contraceptives, or "birthing fatality rates" argument that some here have been peddling! Everything in life comes with a risks.

Just like every time we get into a car, we put ourselves on the risk of being a road fatality....every time a woman have unprotected sex, she puts herself on the risk of getting pregnant.
And, if condom isn't the contraceptive - then, she also put herself at risk of getting STD.

Do you think the spread of STD isn't reason enough for everyone to insist on using condoms?

Why do you keep writing those lies about birth control preventing accidental pregnancies, as if they are effective enough to prevent those accidents? You know now that's a lie...and lying to try and enforce God's Word? That's even a bigger sin.

Yes, the people that are just looking to blame women will say that....it's what they want to believe. Why do you want to believe that of women? Please tell me.

Now I can give you straight numbers...simple math...that unbiased, honest, intelligent people understand:

--birth control methods, even properly and consistently used, are only about 98% effective.

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times a day, every day.

--with the error rate in birth control, this means that there will still be 10's of thousands of accidental pregnancies *every day.*

Now...care to rethink your perceptions based on reality instead of prejudice?​

 

[tosca1]

And she has to accept the risk of pregnancy. She cant escape consequences if she gets pregnant. You just dont like that she has choices in which consequences she accepts.

no women that gets pregnant can avoid paying the consequences, there is no escape. There are only 4 scenarios:

--she has a kid
--miscarriage
--abortion
--dying during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer permanent health damage from the first 3 too.​

If she doesnt want a child and realizes it's wrong to have a kid just to put it up for adoption (when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting for homes)...why should she make a choice that is a much higher risk to her life and health? She has commitments and obligations to others...her family, her community, her employer, society, etc.

Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy/childbirth. What right do you have to tell a woman what risks she must take with her own life and disregard the effects on her family, her dependents?

:roll:

That argument doesn't work anymore, now that we have all sorts of contraceptives available.

Yes, pro-lifer doesn't like the fact that a favored group has the sanction to kill another human being.

 

[tosca1]

Why do you keep writing those lies about birth control preventing accidental pregnancies, as if they are effective enough to prevent those accidents? You know now that's a lie...and lying to try and enforce God's Word? That's even a bigger sin.

Yes, the people that are just looking to blame women will say that....it's what they want to believe. Why do you want to believe that of women? Please tell me.

Now I can give you straight numbers...simple math...that unbiased, honest, intelligent people understand:

--birth control methods, even properly and consistently used, are only about 98% effective.

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times a day, every day.

--with the error rate in birth control, this means that there will still be 10's of thousands of accidental pregnancies *every day.*

Now...care to rethink your perceptions based on reality instead of prejudice?​

I didn't write any lies. You just didn't like what I wrote. :shrug:

The percentage of effectiveness is high, actually.
You want to play it even safer?
What's wrong with using two or three types of contraceptives? Condom (for STD), along with IUD?

 

[Lursa]

:roll:

That argument doesn't work anymore, now that we have all sorts of contraceptives available.

Yes, pro-lifer doesn't like the fact that a favored group has the sanction to kill another human being.

See my next post, 596, which shows why even with consistent and correct contraceptive use, there will still be 10's of thousands of accidental pregnancies every day. Your comment doesnt change those numbers. People can be completely responsible and still have an accidental pregnancy.

So then why should a woman risk all I described? Please explain instead of using your tired and inaccurate claim about bc?

Try again:

If she doesnt want a child and realizes it's wrong to have a kid just to put it up for adoption (when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting for homes)...why should she make a choice that is a much higher risk to her life and health? She has commitments and obligations to others...her family, her community, her employer, society, etc.

Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy/childbirth. What right do you have to tell a woman what risks she must take with her own life and disregard the effects on her family, her dependents?​

 

[Lursa]

I didn't write any lies. You just didn't like what I wrote. :shrug:

The percentage of effectiveness is high, actually.
You want to play it even safer?
What's wrong with using two or three types of contraceptives? Condom (for STD), along with IUD?

What makes you think they arent? The 'correct' way to use a condom is with jelly or another contraceptive. I wrote using bc 'correctly and consistently.'

Again: it still adds up to 10s of thousands of accidental pregnancies a year. Why do you believe it's wrong for these 10s of thousands of women to choose what is best for them and their lives, their health, their commitments and obligations to family, community, church, employer, society?