87% of Americans Want Politicians To Do Something Before Social Security Runs Out of Money

[ttwtt78640]

Okay, who pays for the borrowed fund? Future generations of taxpayers. It's mortgaging the future. It's what taxpayers are doing now as SS bonds are being cashed.

That’s true, but addresses only the present.

In the near future current SS beneficiaries would be impacted by any cuts in their benefits and current workers would be impacted by any increases in their taxation.

 

[AZRWinger]

In a sense yes, the inherent issue with SS is longevity from any one point in time based on the fundamental factors of payments in to payments out in a mode or projection based on the economy (the rest is just accounting between two ledgers where one loans to the other.)

The reason I also favor doing the former (taxation for SS purposes) is it safeguards the most vulnerable. In this case the SS recipients who are both living near the poverty level on SS *and* are in no position to make enough economic choices to handle the consequences of less SS benefits.

No, the inherent problem with SS is common to all Ponzi schemes where early investors are paid with contributions from later investors, inevitably new investments cannot keep pace with promised payments.

SS is not a dry accounting passing of entries from on ledger to the other. Workers and employers are forced to pay for creating the surpluses and then forced to pay for redeeming the bonds. SS benefits are then taxed a third time. Recipients deemed to have "excessive" income are taxed more. Triple taxation sold as social welfare, a progressive Democrat dream.

 

[AZRWinger]

That’s true, but addresses only the present.

In the near future current SS beneficiaries would be impacted by any cuts in their benefits and current workers would be impacted by any increases in their taxation.

Raising SS taxes like Democrats such as Senator Warren want to do restarts the whole Ponzi scheme.

 

[Kushinator]

The presentation of SS bonds is a demand for current year general fund revenue. SS tax receipts are part of the general fund. Both are classified as nondiscretionary spending meaning Congress doesn't appropriate funds they are spent on demand up to SS tax receipts plus trust fund bonds presented for payment. When the so-called trust fund is exhausted, projected to be in 10 years or less, benefits will have to be cut by an estimated 20%.

I've already addressed this... no need to try repeat my posts back to me.

Treasury doesnt create public debt for a particular government need. There is no bond sale specifically for SS bonds or any other program. The "conversion to public debt" claim is nonsense.

That is exactly how the trust fund is utilized. There will be no change in total debt... intergovernmental holdings will be reduced by the amount of the public debt increase.

SS was designed to be a funding source for the Federal government. In 1940 when SS was fully implemented the ratio of workers to beneficiaries was 159 to 1. Combined with a minimum retirement age that exceeded the average lifespan and no death benefit to speak of it was a gravy train for additional Federal spending without raising taxes. Yeah, SS is working as designed, a Ponzi scheme.

It's not a ponzi scheme. Nobody has a compulsory requirement to pay into a ponzi scheme, and those who operate a ponzi scheme do not print their own money. Your posts are exactly why people snicker when MAGA cultists try to discuss any topic.

Nice word salad of economic terms.

Your contention was refuted, even if you're unable to comprehend my comment.

Raising SS taxes impacts every employer so there is no competitive advantage to reducing profits to pay for it. It would serve as an incentive to eliminate employees via automation or overseas outsourcing. The exact opposite of its intended effect.

That happened in the early 1980's. Can you show how much employment was wiped out? I didn't think so.

No sophisticated econometric analysis

People actually believe there is less employment now than before Biden was sworn into office. People actually believe inflation is currently at record levels. People actually believe we had hyperinflation. These tend to be your people, and it's a byproduct of false information and alternative facts.

Sophisticated economic analysis has absolutely nothing to do with that deficiency.

Just make trip to the grocery store. Prices for food are up around 20%. All other household expenses are more costly today as well.

Biden isn't responsible for the increase in food prices. Get ahold of yourself. That's why it's probably a good idea to directly attack a brewing global pandemic, and not pretend like it will just magically go away. The ramifications of COVID-19 are here to stay.

 

[OrphanSlug]

No, the inherent problem with SS is common to all Ponzi schemes where early investors are paid with contributions from later investors, inevitably new investments cannot keep pace with promised payments.

That is a political argument about your perception of how SS functions, but is meaningless to what I posted.

SS is not a dry accounting passing of entries from on ledger to the other.

I did not say SS is a dry accounting system (another misnomer btw,) I said it is a function of two ledgers where accounting rules apply and one of them only lists intergovernmental debt. In this case everything I said is accurate as determined by law.

Workers and employers are forced to pay for creating the surpluses and then forced to pay for redeeming the bonds. SS benefits are then taxed a third time. Recipients deemed to have "excessive" income are taxed more. Triple taxation sold as social welfare, a progressive Democrat dream.

"Workers and employers" (and just about everyone) is "forced" to pay taxes anyway regardless of listed method or reason for the tax. And just about any income is taxable based on a number of factors that determines the actual tax liability from the income.

As for the "Triple taxation sold as social welfare, a progressive Democrat dream." That is just something you made up as that is not really what happens.

 

[ttwtt78640]

No, the inherent problem with SS is common to all Ponzi schemes where early investors are paid with contributions from later investors, inevitably new investments cannot keep pace with promised payments.

Without adjusting (increasing) future premiums (due to the ever increasing cost of claimed benefits) any insurance system would suffer the same fate.

SS is not a dry accounting passing of entries from on ledger to the other. Workers and employers are forced to pay for creating the surpluses and then forced to pay for redeeming the bonds. SS benefits are then taxed a third time. Recipients deemed to have "excessive" income are taxed more. Triple taxation sold as social welfare, a progressive Democrat dream.

The external (by IRS) ‘means testing’ of some SS benefits isn’t part of SS. To call the SS surplus “forced” simply means that the SS law was designed to have such a surplus (trust fund). The existence of a (past) surplus is precisely what’s allowing time to decide how (or whether) to maintain paying current (CPI inflation adjusted) SS benefits (by increasing SS ‘contributions’).

 

[PoS]

Your opinions are worthless.

LOL Yet you keep replying to them. You clearly dont know what hypocrisy means!

Destroying ignorance and disinformation is worthy in and of itself.

LOL talk about lack of self awareness. In that case you ought to stop posting then.

Great response.

All you've done is call my posts idiotic, throw some emojis and then run off hoping nobody will call you on your ignorance of the subject. That social security is the largest individual budget item in no way reduces it's significance and importance to the American people. It's not going anywhere, and will likely be reformed via tax increases and adjustments to benefits formulas before the trust fund is exhausted, or at the very least, any shortfall will be funded by legislation.

LOL all youve done is engage in tu quoque fallacies and your own pathetic self projection. Well done on making yourself look bad once more.

 

[OlNate]

Your opinions are worthless.

Destroying ignorance and disinformation is worthy in and of itself.

Great response.

All you've done is call my posts idiotic, throw some emojis and then run off hoping nobody will call you on your ignorance of the subject. That social security is the largest individual budget item in no way reduces it's significance and importance to the American people. It's not going anywhere, and will likely be reformed via tax increases and adjustments to benefits formulas before the trust fund is exhausted, or at the very least, any shortfall will be funded by legislation.

Lol... talk about throwing good money after bad. Everyone knows you don't take every poster on here seriously. And most people agree on who those particular posters are. Hate to see people waste perfectly good walls of text on them.

Oh, and since this is a debate forum i gotta tell you you're wrong about one thing at least... hehe In this case it's your assertion that the fine member you're talking about doesn't want people to call him out. The "eloquent" manner in which they debate is to encourage responses in order to extract maximum attention. I would argue that the better response is my standard go to with this particular individual - have your giggle, roll your eyes, and move on to more serious debaters. PoS is for entertainment purposes only.

 

[AZRWinger]

I've already addressed this... no need to try repeat my posts back to me.

You spent the first part of your last post whining about how uninformed I am. 0-3 remember? When I explain how SS works using simple statements you complain.

That is exactly how the trust fund is utilized. There will be no change in total debt... intergovernmental holdings will be reduced by the amount of the public debt increase.

Again you dance around the fact Treasury doesn't sell bonds to finance specific programs or projects. Go to the Treasury website. None of the bonds being sold there are for a specified purpose. Public debt is used to cover excess Federal spending by the entire government.

You're overlooking the facts public debt requires servicing and gobbles up credit depriving private borrowers. SS bonds interest is a bookkeeping entry to be redeemed down the road.

It's not a ponzi scheme. Nobody has a compulsory requirement to pay into a ponzi scheme, and those who operate a ponzi scheme do not print their own money. Your posts are exactly why people snicker when MAGA cultists try to discuss any topic.

SS is not a Ponzi scheme because it's compulsory. That's hilarious. If Bernie Madoff had only been able to demand contributions and print his own money he wouldn't haven't been corrupt. Nonsense.

Your contention was refuted, even if you're unable to comprehend my comment.

That happened in the early 1980's. Can you show how much employment was wiped out? I didn't think so.

Your unsupported declarations of opinion are insufficient.

People actually believe there is less employment now than before Biden was sworn into office. People actually believe inflation is currently at record levels. People actually believe we had hyperinflation. These tend to be your people, and it's a byproduct of false information and alternative facts.

Not a word about the high prices for essential groceries. Biden boasts about growing the economy from the bottom up and middle out while Bidenomics saddles these same people with sky high food prices along with everything else.

Your demagoguery targeting political opponents doesn't do a thing to help the people most impacted by Bidenomics.

Sophisticated economic analysis has absolutely nothing to do with that deficiency.

Biden isn't responsible for the increase in food prices. Get ahold of yourself. That's why it's probably a good idea to directly attack a brewing global pandemic, and not pretend like it will just magically go away. The ramifications of COVID-19.

Nothing is Biden’s fault. Like Obama before him bad things are inevitable while good things are to his credit. It's a childish refusal to accept Biden’s failure.

 

[Kushinator]

LOL Yet you keep replying to them. You clearly dont know what hypocrisy means!

I keep highlighting your ignorance and inability to debate.

talk about lack of self awareness. In that case you ought to stop posting then.

Trash talk isn't a substitute for debate.

LOL all youve done is engage in tu quoque fallacies and your own pathetic self projection. Well done on making yourself look bad once more.

You don't debate... that's a given.

Lol... talk about throwing good money after bad.

We'll see how long this behavior is allowed to persist.

I would argue that the better response is my standard go to with this particular individual - have your giggle, roll your eyes, and move on to more serious debaters. PoS is for entertainment purposes only.

What good does that do?

 

[OlNate]

What good does that do?

About as much good as anything else you'd do with them.

 

[BabaVoss]

Of course what they want is the rich to pay for it. No surprise. Meanwhile, had I put the money they take from me for my lousy benefit if a live to 65, I could have near a million dollars in my retirement account. Its time to privatize SS. I pay about $800 a month in SS. Average return on that in a mutual fund would be 7 million dollars.

Its time to privatize SS

No, absolutely not. That would be a giant step backwards for our society. Let me explain...

Firstly, you make a mistake representing SS as a retirement plan. It is NOT a retirement plan, and was never intended to be one. It is an insurance plan, to help prevent having older Americans who end up with little or nothing upon which to live in their later years. We have had people who did everything right - worked hard, saved, spent conservatively - and through simple bad luck or timing, health problems or job loss at a critical time, lost everything. SS gives them enough so that they won't starve or have to rely on charity to live. It also works for people who do everything wrong, conveniently. And we do end up paying for them one way or another.

Second, it is a price you agree to pay as part of the bargain of living in the United States. No one is forcing you to stay, but if you do, paying into SS that is part of the price. It is arguably the single most effective and successful government program in our history. Turning it into a profit mechanism for businesses would be a huge mistake. Better idea would be to fold it into a Universal Basic Income that every citizen would receive. (Currently a thread about this).

Time to rethink your thoughts, maybe.

Yes, it is time to fix SS. It is a system that requires periodic adjustment, due to changes in demographics. Reagan did it. We can do it. We just need to push our politicians to make it a priority. Or elect some that are willing to do so.

 

[Kushinator]

You spent the first part of your last post whining about how uninformed I am.

You are uninformed... otherwise we wouldn't be having this interaction.

When I explain how SS works using simple statements you complain.

You've repeated my posts back to me. Great job!

Again you dance around the fact Treasury doesn't sell bonds to finance specific programs or projects. Go to the Treasury website. None of the bonds being sold there are for a specified purpose.

Lol, what are you talking about? The Treasury sells bonds, notes, and bills to raise cash to cover expenses. One such expense is repayment of the trust fund.

Public debt is used to cover excess Federal spending by the entire government.

Public debt is used to roll over maturities, cover expenses, and pay interest.

You're overlooking the facts public debt requires servicing and gobbles up credit depriving private borrowers.

I am not.

Furthermore, crowding out can be observed via a widening spread between government and private debt. What does this mean? Well, if public borrowing gobbles up private credit, how would this be observed?

SS bonds interest is a bookkeeping entry to be redeemed down the road.

The trust fund is currently being drawn upon. Tell me... where do the funds to redeem special issuance come from?

SS is not a Ponzi scheme because it's compulsory. That's hilarious. If Bernie Madoff had only been able to demand contributions and print his own money he wouldn't haven't been corrupt. Nonsense.

Madoff was telling his investors they owned various vehicles that generate return, and went as far as to create fake financial statements to hide the reality.

Comparing a government program with a ponzi scheme is sheer desperateness. It's a means of channeling your partisan ignorance.

Your unsupported declarations of opinion are insufficient.

You're the one taking about tax increases killing employment. I simply provided a counter example and you're too proud to admit your error, or at the very least walk away.

Not a word about the high prices for essential groceries.

Why would I need to beat the MAGA drum? When I grew up in the '80s and early 90's, people didn't use price volatility to harpoon the political opposition. The dealt with it. Sure there would be talk about milk costing a quarter back in someone's day, but nothing consistent with the sheer toxicity that plagues the MAGAsphere.

Biden boasts about growing the economy from the bottom up and middle out while Bidenomics saddles these same people with sky high food prices along with everything else.

Biden has nothing to do with food prices. Sure, hell get the blame because that's the name of the game, but food prices have grown for economic reasons... not due to policy.

Your demagoguery targeting political opponents doesn't do a thing to help the people most impacted by Bidenomics.

Another cultist who suddenly cares about the poor. Nobody buys it.

Nothing is Biden’s fault. Like Obama before him bad things are inevitable while good things are to his credit. It's a childish refusal to accept Biden’s failure.

If you want to talk about specific policy and the impacts... create a thread about it. Hell, why not talk about it here given your propensity to deflect? We know why. You have nothing.

 

[Kushinator]

About as much good as anything else you'd do with them.

Again, we'll see how long such trolling is allowed to persist.

 

[OlNate]

Again, we'll see how long such trolling is allowed to persist.

Lol... you've been around a long time. Long enough to know some people are really good at riding the line.

But, hey, fill your boots and have fun!

 

[Kushinator]

Lol... you've been around a long time. Long enough to know some people are really good at riding the line.

They are only good at riding the line if others allow them to dictate the terms of the exchange. I can walk that same line while simultaneously discussing the topic.

But, hey, fill your boots and have fun!

I'll do my best.

 

[rickc]

Well as long as white working class voters elect Republicans social security is in danger. They would like to see the program bankrupt where they could get rid of it. Otherwise the will still attempt to kill it with the death of a thousand cuts. Benefit cuts, increase the retirement age but never agree to raise any taxes.

Republicans take the Grover Norquist pledge to never raise any taxes. Only cut them.

 

[PoS]

I keep highlighting your ignorance and inability to debate.

Trash talk isn't a substitute for debate.

You don't debate... that's a given.

We'll see how long this behavior is allowed to persist.

What good does that do?

LOL you keep obsessing with me, which means I live rent free in your head. Thats awesome since I beat you every time. Its like stealing candy form a 5 year old since you keep making idiotic posts.

 

[Kushinator]

LOL you keep obsessing with me, which means I live rent free in your head. Thats awesome since I beat you every time. Its like stealing candy form a 5 year old since you keep making idiotic posts.

I am not the topic of discussion.

 

[PoS]

I am not the topic of discussion.

LOL you keep obsessing with me, which means I live rent free in your head. Thats awesome since I beat you every time. Its like stealing candy form a 5 year old since you keep making idiotic posts.

 

[Kushinator]

LOL you keep obsessing with me, which means I live rent free in your head. Thats awesome since I beat you every time. Its like stealing candy form a 5 year old since you keep making idiotic posts.

Your post was pure trash, and your opinions on SS are cringe AF. You're in no position to challenge my expertise, and this thread is a testament.

 

[PoS]

Your post was pure trash, and your opinions on SS are cringe AF. You're in no position to challenge my expertise, and this thread is a testament.

LOL you keep obsessing with me, which means I live rent free in your head. Thats awesome since I beat you every time. Its like stealing candy form a 5 year old since you keep making idiotic posts.

 

[Kushinator]

@PoS

If you're that afraid to debate, just walk away.

 

[PoS]

@PoS

If you're that afraid to debate, just walk away.

LOL you keep obsessing with me, which means I live rent free in your head. Thats awesome since I beat you every time. Its like stealing candy form a 5 year old since you keep making idiotic posts.

 

[Kushinator]

@PoS

If you're that afraid to debate, just walk away.