• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Character is Fate / Know Thyself

KevinKohler said:
A mans character is not his fate, because character changes.



People do change, and profoundly. No fate, but what we make. That's some terminator two wisdom.
Click to expand...
I think Heraclitus would agree with your Terminator 2 wisdom, but not with your view of character, which he probably would view as the more stable core of who we are, formed of nature and nurture and pretty set by the time we're grown up..
 
devildavid said:
A man's fate is not entirely under his control and neither is his character.
Click to expand...
Nature + Nurture + ????
Is there some third ingredient?
devildavid said:
It's not much different than the Biblical proverb "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap". Maybe, maybe not....
Click to expand...
Character would seem to be one remove from behavior or action, no?
Agency is related to character, in other words. No?
 
@ David & Kevin
If we were to understand Heraclitus as touching on morality, we would be talking about Virtue Ethics, yes?
Virtue Ethics
Virtue ethics is currently one of three major approaches in normative ethics. It may, initially, be identified as the one that emphasizes the virtues, or moral character, in contrast to the approach that emphasizes duties or rules (deontology) or that emphasizes the consequences of actions (consequentialism).
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-virtue/
Click to expand...
 
TheGoverness said:
One day, I hope you post something that makes a bit of sense.
Click to expand...
I thought we had an understanding, Ma'am, going back to that lively abortion thread in which we first met, that you would thenceforth keep me honest by asking for clarification wherever you felt it was needed. Do you remember that thread, our meeting, the excitement of a fresh idea?

In short, please tell me where I've fallen short of clarity in the OP? I would consider it a favor, as clarity is a virtue I aspire to. :)
 
RetiredUSN said:
Trump has the White House at the moment.

There is a flaw in this argument.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing. You and I are defining "fate" differently. I define fate in a cosmic sense... what's in a person's heart, their self-talk. You would seem to be defining it, in part, by one's earthly rewards.
 
devildavid said:
...It's not much different than the Biblical proverb "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"....
Click to expand...
An interesting parallel, David. Another interesting parallel is to the Hindu concept of karma.

And here they say that a person consists of desires,
and as is his desire, so is his will;
and as is his will, so is his deed;
and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.
— Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 7th Century BC


As a man himself sows, so he himself reaps; no man inherits the good or evil act of another man. The fruit is of the same quality as the action.
— Mahabharata, xii.291.22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
Click to expand...

That three different cultures -- Hinduism, Judaism, Hellenism -- came up with a similar concept speaks for its intuitiveness.
The Greek concept received full-blown treatment in Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics and has come down into modern times in philosophical circles as Virtue Ethics.
 
Angel said:
Nature + Nurture + ????
Is there some third ingredient?

Character would seem to be one remove from behavior or action, no?
Agency is related to character, in other words. No?
Click to expand...

Character is not all that important that it decides our fate. It is a small piece of the puzzle. It is an overly moralistic view this philosopher takes and judgmental as well. It is an elitist view that I take issue with. The implication is that ill fated people must be of inferior character.
 
MaggieD said:
Here's the thing. You and I are defining "fate" differently. I define fate in a cosmic sense... what's in a person's heart, their self-talk. You would seem to be defining it, in part, by one's earthly rewards.
Click to expand...

What is cosmic fate? Fate does refer to some future result. In this case, a result based on our character.
 
devildavid said:
What is cosmic fate? Fate does refer to some future result. In this case, a result based on our character.
Click to expand...

Good question. I wrestled with a word there and came up with "cosmic." Sorry I don't have a better answer.
 
devildavid said:
Character is not all that important that it decides our fate. It is a small piece of the puzzle. It is an overly moralistic view this philosopher takes and judgmental as well. It is an elitist view that I take issue with. The implication is that ill fated people must be of inferior character.
Click to expand...
Indeed, it is noble to attempt to oppose the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune but, the result is not necessarily a reflection of character.

That awful management cliche, 'I judge you by results not by effort' comes to mind.
 
MaggieD said:
Here's the thing. You and I are defining "fate" differently. I define fate in a cosmic sense... what's in a person's heart, their self-talk. You would seem to be defining it, in part, by one's earthly rewards.
Click to expand...
devildavid said:
What is cosmic fate? Fate does refer to some future result. In this case, a result based on our character.
Click to expand...
I like Maggie's use of the word "cosmic." It does justice to the concept of fate, recognizes it as a principle, and locates that principle in the character. I think her intuition goes far deeper into the matter than David's pop-cultural che sera sera.

Maggie's view looks to the question of cause; David's view looks to the outcome or effect.
Maggie's view holds us responsible for our actions; David's view removes responsibility from our actions.

Maggie's view seems to me closer to the view expressed by Heraclitus in the fragment cited in the OP, and closer to the moral truth of the matter.
I'm with Maggie and Heraclitus on this one.
The che sera sera view has given us the insurance industry, but it has removed the existential burden from our shoulders at considerable moral cost.
 
devildavid said:
Character is not all that important that it decides our fate. It is a small piece of the puzzle. It is an overly moralistic view this philosopher takes and judgmental as well. It is an elitist view that I take issue with. The implication is that ill fated people must be of inferior character.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ, David. Character is all-important in deciding our fate. It is most of the puzzle. The Heraclitus fragment may imply a moral order, and a moral order may imply moral judgment, but it is not elitist, and I have no issue with it. The implication is that we are responsible for our lives. This, I believe, is closer to the truth of the matter than the leveling fairy tale we're supposed to accept without question today.
 
William Rea said:
Indeed, it is noble to attempt to oppose the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune but, the result is not necessarily a reflection of character.

That awful management cliche, 'I judge you by results not by effort' comes to mind.
Click to expand...
Don't "words have consequences"? Don't "actions have consequences"? Aren't we supposed to "own our mistakes"?
 
devildavid said:
Character is not all that important that it decides our fate.
Click to expand...
Do you recognize a difference between saying that character decides fate (or not) and that character is fate (or not)?
 
Last edited:
Msn1iE0l.jpg

PozSXVml.jpg

Above are representative quotes for different approaches to the formation of character. Part of the difficulty obvious in the discussion of character in this thread, it seems to me, is that we have forgotten what the concept of character is, or was. We have bought into the cult of personality so thoroughly in our present belief-system that we no longer recognize the role of character in our lives. The above quotes and the linked articles below are posted with the aim of better focusing the discussion of how character is related to happiness, a relationship we have all but lost sight of in our millennial groping after meaning in life.


What Is Character? Its 3 True Qualities and How to Develop It
It’s certainly not a word that’s used as much as it once was. Cultural historian Warren Susman researched the rise and fall of the concept of character, tracing its prevalence in literature and the self-improvement manuals and guides popular in different eras. What he found is that the use of the term “character” began in the 17th century and peaked in the 19th – a century, Susman, writes, that embodied “a culture of character.” During the 1800s, “character was a key word in the vocabulary of Englishmen and Americans,” and men were spoken of as having strong or weak character, good or bad character, a great deal of character or no character at all. Young people were admonished to cultivate real character, high character, and noble character and told that character was the most priceless thing they could ever attain. Starting at the beginning of the 20th century, however, Susman found that the ideal of character began to be replaced by that of personality.

But character and personality are two very different things.
What is Character? | The Art of Manliness
Click to expand...

Character Formation and the Origins of AA
Within the academy, this basic prescription for earthly happiness — in the words of Williams College President Mark Hopkins, “as your character is, so will your destiny be” — reigned supreme for almost three centuries, from Harvard’s founding in 1636 until the early twentieth century.[bolding mine]
Character Formation and the Origins of AA - The New Atlantis
Click to expand...
 
Hmmm, cold ice baths, regular beatings and no meaningful emotional engagement appear to be the order of the day. The beatings will continue until character improves.
 
Angel said:
Msn1iE0l.jpg

PozSXVml.jpg

Above are representative quotes for different approaches to the formation of character. Part of the difficulty obvious in the discussion of character in this thread, it seems to me, is that we have forgotten what the concept of character is, or was. We have bought into the cult of personality so thoroughly in our present belief-system that we no longer recognize the role of character in our lives. The above quotes and the linked articles below are posted with the aim of better focusing the discussion of how character is related to happiness, a relationship we have all but lost sight of in our millennial groping after meaning in life.
Click to expand...

Character is not related to happiness. Your preaching is tedious. Stop telling us what is important for all of us and live your life according to any philosophy you like. The rest of us will just have to muddle along without your attempts to enlighten us.
 
devildavid said:
Character is not related to happiness. Your preaching is tedious. Stop telling us what is important for all of us and live your life according to any philosophy you like. The rest of us will just have to muddle along without your attempts to enlighten us.
Click to expand...

Amen to that brother.
 
Angel said:
Do you recognize a difference between saying that character decides fate (or not) and that character is fate (or not)?
Click to expand...

So, do you believe that not accepting assertions made without evidence is a sign of good character?

Do you believe that being pragmatic and skeptical are good character traits?

How did you observe the last 10,000 years of narcissism?
 
devildavid said:
Character is not related to happiness. Your preaching is tedious. Stop telling us what is important for all of us and live your life according to any philosophy you like. The rest of us will just have to muddle along without your attempts to enlighten us.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ, David. Character is most certainly related to happiness, notwithstanding your assertions to the contrary. I'm presenting an argument. I'm representing an older and wiser view on this topic. Present a counter-argument. Represent the contempo view for us. Stop telling me to stop. A different voice on this matter should be heard.
William Rea said:
So, do you believe that not accepting assertions made without evidence is a sign of good character?
Click to expand...
I hope so for your sake, my friend.
 
Last edited:
Have you ever needed to provide a character reference for the purpose of employment?

What do we mean when we claim to be a good judge of character?

Does the term character formation refer to something real and important in the life of an individual?

Heraclitus’ Maxim Still Holds True: Character is Destiny
The great historian Macaulay defined character perhaps better than anyone. “The measure of a man’s character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out.”
[Bolding mine]
Heraclitus’ Maxim Still Holds True: Character is Destiny | Ashbrook
Click to expand...
 
Angel said:
I beg to differ, David. Character is most certainly related to happiness, notwithstanding your assertions to the contrary. I'm presenting an argument. I'm representing an older and wiser view on this topic. Present a counter-argument. Represent the contempo view for us. Stop telling me to stop. A different voice on this matter should be heard.

I hope so for your sake, my friend.
Click to expand...

What does that snark even mean?

Your inability to respond to questions on what character even is, is noted. You are not even representing anything other than vague assertions based upon nostalgia for a world that never existed and, if it did, it would be full of repressed individuals living repressed lives.
 
devildavid said:
Character is not related to happiness.
Click to expand...
Angel said:
I beg to differ, David. Character is most certainly related to happiness, notwithstanding your assertions to the contrary.
Click to expand...
Character and happiness are profoundly interrelated, David. See eudaimonism, for example.
Virtue Ethics (or Virtue Theory) is an approach to Ethics that emphasizes an individual's character as the key element of ethical thinking, rather than rules about the acts themselves (Deontology) or their consequences (Consequentialism).

Eudaimonism is the classical formulation of Virtue Ethics. It holds that...
Virtue Ethics - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom