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Which is More Powerful

Rich2018

Rich2018

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There's on ongoing debate as to what guns should be allowed for home defense, some would say any gun you want but to many it's a choice between a semi-automatic rifle or a pistol (or a shotgun)


Ignoring shotguns for right now. which is the more powerful, the common 5.56mm rifle round, found in most AR-15 type platforms or the .45 ACP of the M-1911


I've read that the 5.56mm at a range of about 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.
Would this make a difference in power or energy delivered to the target ?


Or is the assertion that the .45 ACP is a more powerful weapon at pistol ranges simply a categorical statement that is false and a display of ignorance ?


What do you think.
Was what I've seen written about a comparison between a 5.56mm rifle round and a .45" ACP pistol total garbage or is there some truth init, that the pistol round will pack a bigger punch and do more damage at shorter ranges ?
 
Rich2018 said:
There's on ongoing debate as to what guns should be allowed for home defense, some would say any gun you want but to many it's a choice between a semi-automatic rifle or a pistol (or a shotgun)


Ignoring shotguns for right now. which is the more powerful, the common 5.56mm rifle round, found in most AR-15 type platforms or the .45 ACP of the M-1911


I've read that the 5.56mm at a range of about 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.
Would this make a difference in power or energy delivered to the target ?


Or is the assertion that the .45 ACP is a more powerful weapon at pistol ranges simply a categorical statement that is false and a display of ignorance ?


What do you think.
Was what I've seen written about a comparison between a 5.56mm rifle round and a .45" ACP pistol total garbage or is there some truth init, that the pistol round will pack a bigger punch and do more damage at shorter ranges ?
Click to expand...

Who in the world would have wrote such a thing as the bolded above?
 
Rich2018 said:
There's on ongoing debate as to what guns should be allowed for home defense, some would say any gun you want but to many it's a choice between a semi-automatic rifle or a pistol (or a shotgun)


Ignoring shotguns for right now. which is the more powerful, the common 5.56mm rifle round, found in most AR-15 type platforms or the .45 ACP of the M-1911


I've read that the 5.56mm at a range of about 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.
Would this make a difference in power or energy delivered to the target ?

Or is the assertion that the .45 ACP is a more powerful weapon at pistol ranges simply a categorical statement that is false and a display of ignorance ?


What do you think.
Was what I've seen written about a comparison between a 5.56mm rifle round and a .45" ACP pistol total garbage or is there some truth init, that the pistol round will pack a bigger punch and do more damage at shorter ranges ?
Click to expand...

Reference the bolded: You're answering your own question with the statement that precedes it though you could be more precise by specifying projectile type.
 
Rich2018 said:
There's on ongoing debate as to what guns should be allowed for home defense, some would say any gun you want but to many it's a choice between a semi-automatic rifle or a pistol (or a shotgun)


Ignoring shotguns for right now. which is the more powerful, the common 5.56mm rifle round, found in most AR-15 type platforms or the .45 ACP of the M-1911


I've read that the 5.56mm at a range of about 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.
Would this make a difference in power or energy delivered to the target ?


Or is the assertion that the .45 ACP is a more powerful weapon at pistol ranges simply a categorical statement that is false and a display of ignorance ?


What do you think.
Was what I've seen written about a comparison between a 5.56mm rifle round and a .45" ACP pistol total garbage or is there some truth init, that the pistol round will pack a bigger punch and do more damage at shorter ranges ?
Click to expand...

Here's something I've wrote on the topic recently. While it isn't what the unknown author you reference above said, perhaps you may find it illuminating.

.223 FMJ at pistol range of say 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP JHP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.

I wrote that in response to this: A 5.56mm round will do more damage than any .45" at any range.
 
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It's all in how you're keeping score. Over-penetration isn't necessarily a bad thing, though it typically is couched that way.

I believe the "power" of a round is a fairly straightforward calculation of the projectile\powder masses involved. My impression is that by the math, the 5.56mm is considerably more powerful. The relatively tiny bullet at a very fast velocity is likely to trump a larger projectile going at a much lower velocity. Much typical .45 ammo is subsonic!

Another aspect to consider is that 50' is a fairly long range shot for a pistol, but would be a close range shot for any 5.56 rifle.

My amateur opinion would be that the way to test would be to grab an average person or two off the street, and put one of these weapons in their hands, and do some shooting.

Generally, I expect you'd see better results with the rifle, because it is easier to use effectively for low-skilled users.

Probably many here know him already, but I can't recommend Paul Harrell enough. He does a lot of practical testing on these things.
 
WillyPete said:
It's all in how you're keeping score. Over-penetration isn't necessarily a bad thing, though it typically is couched that way.

I believe the "power" of a round is a fairly straightforward calculation of the projectile\powder masses involved. My impression is that by the math, the 5.56mm is considerably more powerful. The relatively tiny bullet at a very fast velocity is likely to trump a larger projectile going at a much lower velocity. Much typical .45 ammo is subsonic!

Another aspect to consider is that 50' is a fairly long range shot for a pistol, but would be a close range shot for any 5.56 rifle.

My amateur opinion would be that the way to test would be to grab an average person or two off the street, and put one of these weapons in their hands, and do some shooting.

Generally, I expect you'd see better results with the rifle, because it is easier to use effectively for low-skilled users.

Probably many here know him already, but I can't recommend Paul Harrell enough. He does a lot of practical testing on these things.
Click to expand...



So does it matter if a 5.56mm round passes through a man at say 50', when weighing up which is the more powerful tool for home defense: a 5.56mm rifle or a .45" ACP pistol ?
 
Rich2018 said:
So does it matter if a 5.56mm round passes through a man at say 50', when weighing up which is the more powerful tool for home defense: a 5.56mm rifle or a .45" ACP pistol ?
Click to expand...

I expect it matters to many, particularly in built-up areas, but the guy who got shot probably won't care.

I've heard that 5.56 has a tendency to tumble after the initial impact, which serves to shed much of that force, and also to fragment, so the force is spilt up.

I've even read claims that the fragmentation effect makes it less likely to over penetrate that your traditional pistol ammo, as the pistol projectile is less likely to fragment, and so focuses whatever force it has in one spot.
 
Rich2018 said:
So does it matter if a 5.56mm round passes through a man at say 50', when weighing up which is the more powerful tool for home defense: a 5.56mm rifle or a .45" ACP pistol ?
Click to expand...

LOL! You never tire it appears.

Did you so soon forget that this categorical statement: A 5.56mm round will do more damage than any .45" at any range. was in response to someone comparing two rifles in a hunting scenario?
 
Rich2018 said:
There's on ongoing debate as to what guns should be allowed for home defense, some would say any gun you want but to many it's a choice between a semi-automatic rifle or a pistol (or a shotgun)


Ignoring shotguns for right now. which is the more powerful, the common 5.56mm rifle round, found in most AR-15 type platforms or the .45 ACP of the M-1911


I've read that the 5.56mm at a range of about 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.
Would this make a difference in power or energy delivered to the target ?


Or is the assertion that the .45 ACP is a more powerful weapon at pistol ranges simply a categorical statement that is false and a display of ignorance ?


What do you think.
Was what I've seen written about a comparison between a 5.56mm rifle round and a .45" ACP pistol total garbage or is there some truth init, that the pistol round will pack a bigger punch and do more damage at shorter ranges ?
Click to expand...

why bother? you want to ban every weapon that shoots either cartridge
 
TurtleDude said:
why bother? you want to ban every weapon that shoots either cartridge
Click to expand...

So what are your thoughts, would a 5.56mm rifle serve me better as a home defense weapon or does the fact that it might pass through a person at 50' range matter at all ?
 
WillyPete said:
I've heard that 5.56 has a tendency to tumble after the initial impact, which serves to shed much of that force, and also to fragment, so the force is spilt up...
Click to expand...

That's my understanding too, nevertheless the guy who wrote about the .45" seems to be claiming that the .45" might cause more damage at 50' and, I guess, equate to more "stopping power".

I would dispute the fact that a 45" would cause more damage in all but the exception cases and therefore be a much better tool for home defense.
 
Rich2018 said:
That's my understanding too, nevertheless the guy who wrote about the .45" seems to be claiming that the .45" might cause more damage at 50' and, I guess, equate to more "stopping power".

I would dispute the fact that a 45" would cause more damage in all but the exception cases and therefore be a much better tool for home defense.
Click to expand...

Stopping power is a bit of a nebulous term, as it includes the target's reaction to being hit, which is going to vary pretty dramatically.

It's not a question with a concrete answer. There are advantages to both for different people in different situations.

I'd say that a .45 pistol would probably require more skill to use effectively in your scenario. But not all .45 firearms are pistols.

There are also cost, legal, recoil sensitivity, medical conditions, etc. There's no perfect answer, whatever anyone says, but there might be a "perfect for you."

There are also weapons that are actively seeking a "one-size-fits all," that are very effective for large numbers of people, but might be useless for others.

People feel strongly about these things. It's not worth arguing over.
 
WillyPete said:
Stopping power is a bit of a nebulous term, as it includes the target's reaction to being hit, which is going to vary pretty dramatically.

It's not a question with a concrete answer. There are advantages to both for different people in different situations.

I'd say that a .45 pistol would probably require more skill to use effectively in your scenario. But not all .45 firearms are pistols.

There are also cost, legal, recoil sensitivity, medical conditions, etc. There's no perfect answer, whatever anyone says, but there might be a "perfect for you."

There are also weapons that are actively seeking a "one-size-fits all," that are very effective for large numbers of people, but might be useless for others.

People feel strongly about these things. It's not worth arguing over.
Click to expand...

I guess a .32" behind the ear has most stopping power than a .45" to the chest
 
Rich2018 said:
That's my understanding too, nevertheless the guy who wrote about the .45" seems to be claiming that the .45" might cause more damage at 50' and, I guess, equate to more "stopping power".

I would dispute the fact that a 45" would cause more damage in all but the exception cases and therefore be a much better tool for home defense.
Click to expand...

You're backing off your previous absolute statement and thus conceding to me.

Thank you for that but it wasn't necessary to start an entire thread for the purpose.
 
Rich2018 said:
There's on ongoing debate as to what guns should be allowed for home defense, some would say any gun you want but to many it's a choice between a semi-automatic rifle or a pistol (or a shotgun)


Ignoring shotguns for right now. which is the more powerful, the common 5.56mm rifle round, found in most AR-15 type platforms or the .45 ACP of the M-1911


I've read that the 5.56mm at a range of about 50' could easily over penetrate, expending very little energy on the target. While a .45 ACP would expend all its energy on target...and a much larger hole besides.
Would this make a difference in power or energy delivered to the target ?


Or is the assertion that the .45 ACP is a more powerful weapon at pistol ranges simply a categorical statement that is false and a display of ignorance ?


What do you think.
Was what I've seen written about a comparison between a 5.56mm rifle round and a .45" ACP pistol total garbage or is there some truth init, that the pistol round will pack a bigger punch and do more damage at shorter ranges ?
Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by "powerful". As far as lethality goes, depending on the type of bullet, the 45 auto is more lethal.

But, both are still lethal and dead is dead.
 
WillyPete said:
I expect it matters to many, particularly in built-up areas, but the guy who got shot probably won't care.

I've heard that 5.56 has a tendency to tumble after the initial impact, which serves to shed much of that force, and also to fragment, so the force is spilt up.

I've even read claims that the fragmentation effect makes it less likely to over penetrate that your traditional pistol ammo, as the pistol projectile is less likely to fragment, and so focuses whatever force it has in one spot.
Click to expand...

If it hits a bone, but that's true for pretty much any bullet. Depends on the type of bullet.
 
Rich2018 said:
So what are your thoughts, would a 5.56mm rifle serve me better as a home defense weapon or does the fact that it might pass through a person at 50' range matter at all ?
Click to expand...

If you use the right type of bullet, you won't have to worry about over-penetration. That and shot placement.

Reid Henrichs advocates aiming for the "spine box" or the ocular cavity.

Robot Check

In both places the bullet will encounter a lot of bone and a hollow point bullet, or a fragmenting bullet probably won't penatrate and if it does it won't have much energy left.
 
apdst said:
Depends on what you mean by "powerful". As far as lethality goes, depending on the type of bullet, the 45 auto is more lethal.

But, both are still lethal and dead is dead.
Click to expand...
This is horribly incorrect.
 
apdst said:
Depends on what you mean by "powerful". As far as lethality goes, depending on the type of bullet, the 45 auto is more lethal.

But, both are still lethal and dead is dead.
Click to expand...

Why would a .45" be more lethal and at what range ?


I guess I mean "stopping power" as meaning the likelihood of putting a man down he hit.
 
apdst said:
If you use the right type of bullet, you won't have to worry about over-penetration. That and shot placement.

Reid Henrichs advocates aiming for the "spine box" or the ocular cavity.

Robot Check

In both places the bullet will encounter a lot of bone and a hollow point bullet, or a fragmenting bullet probably won't penatrate and if it does it won't have much energy left.
Click to expand...

So with the correct ammunition, the chances of a 5.56mm rifle round passing straight through an intruder at say 50', can be ignored ?
 
=Rich2018;1071462675]So does it matter if a 5.56mm round passes through a man at say 50',
Click to expand...
At 50' (just over 16.5 yards) that's why you try to make sure of your backstop. AND use a hollow point.
when weighing up which is the more powerful tool for home defense: a 5.56mm rifle or a .45" ACP pistol ?
Click to expand...
I agree with WP as far as power. It goes to the 5.56 and is much better at that range. Where are living at? The Taj Mahal. But up close and personal I take the .45 which is really moot since I have.22lr ,9mm & 7.62x39mm. 9mm FTW.
 
Rich2018 said:
So with the correct ammunition, the chances of a 5.56mm rifle round passing straight through an intruder at say 50', can be ignored ?
Click to expand...

With the right ammo and shot placement, yes.
 
Rich2018 said:
Why would a .45" be more lethal and at what range ?


I guess I mean "stopping power" as meaning the likelihood of putting a man down he hit.
Click to expand...

The .45 auto will cause a larger wound cavity, with a less lethal bullet.
 
apdst said:
The .45 auto will cause a larger wound cavity, with a less lethal bullet.
Click to expand...

A 45 is not more lethal then a 556 round at any distance.

The wound causing from a rifle round is orders of magnitude larger then any pistol round.

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.
 
braindrain said:
A 45 is not more lethal then a 556 round at any distance.

The wound causing from a rifle round is orders of magnitude larger then any pistol round.

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.
Click to expand...

A .223 diameter bullet is automatically going to be more lethal that a .45 diameter bullet? Um...:lamo
 
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