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U.S. military officers who fought in Syria say they are devastated and ashamed

PoS said:
Yes, our allies, the Kurds- who engage in terrorism. If you think theyre our friends, then I sure would like to know who you consider as enemies.
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We should have thought of that when they were fighting alongside us and protecting US bases against ISIS attacks. They did the bulk of the heavy lifting and dirty work in that war. Estimates are they lost tens of thousands.

And we just dumped them like one of Trump’s wives the minute our objectives were met. The world will remember this.

Leadership is about integrity, loyalty, and trustworthiness . You don’t just abandon your closest allies who have shed so much blood for you at the drop if a hat. Every soldier knows that. This is not like the Manhattan real estate market. The world will remember this. Good luck finding any allies in the future.
 
Tangmo said:
Who knew Republicans loved Putin, Assad and Erdogan so much. It's become quite emotional indeed.

Kim Jong Un has become a Republican favorite too writing his love letters to Trump who swoons over 'em. Stole a kiss in Singapore the two of 'em did.

It's Conservatives, Libertarian Rightists and Republicans who've switched sides.

It's this one by which the American allies the Kurds get slain by the strongman tyrant Erdogan that's mobilized our military's sentiment against Trump. The Putin-Trump Rowers who never wore the uniform haven't any clue of the severity of this betrayal by Trump. We know well Trump is the guy who says he can't remember which foot had the pretend bone spurs. His bonehead supporters love it.
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Oborosen said:
Can you just once, refrain from letting your ignorance shine so brightly as this?
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So says a Right Wing shrink in Alabama. How's Roy Moore doing these dayze btw.

There's no defending Trump which is why the Right's posts have for most of the year been focused personally on individual posters.

The Right needs to face the reality this betrayal of an ally by Trump has turned military sentiment against him and strongly so. Irreversibly so. Trump's already bad relations with the armed forces have entered a new dimension of alienation that will only accelerate and intensify. Anyone who fails to see where this is going would be willfully deaf and blind.
 
The history and fate of the Kurds here is nothing short of tragic. This is a foreign policy disaster of epic proportions.
 
Lisa said:
It was far more complicated than that.

We were well into Vietnam or French Indochina as it was called during WW2 as a way to subvert the Japanese and then we stayed there to support the french colonial interests during the 1950s. When the French pulled out after the rout at Dien Bein Phu we stayed and then we slowly ramped up our military presence. Kennedy tried to get us out but Johnson ramped it up after Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas.
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That's a myth. Kennedy was all in after Diem's assassination. The fact he there was a full combat command in Vietnam was proof positive he was going to increase our military commitment just like LBJ did. As far as whether he would pull out later on is a possibility, but its too speculative.

Lisa said:
The Kurds fought alongside us during Bush's nightmare in Iraq and they were pivotal in subduing ISIL. We cannot betray them now after what they did for us. We cannot allow a minority to be wiped out in genocide just so Trump can please Erdogan and Putin.
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What's your endgame then? The Kurds want independence, which means taking a slice out of Syria and Turkey, and do you think those two countries will accept that? You want the US in a war over that? Obama was an idiot for getting us in there in the first place, and we need to wash our hands of it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

ataraxia said:
We should have thought of that when they were fighting alongside us and protecting US bases against ISIS attacks. They did the bulk of the heavy lifting and dirty work in that war. Estimates are they lost tens of thousands.

And we just dumped them like one of Trump’s wives the minute our objectives were met. The world will remember this.

Leadership is about integrity, loyalty, and trustworthiness . You don’t just abandon your closest allies who have shed so much blood for you at the drop if a hat. Every soldier knows that. This is not like the Manhattan real estate market. The world will remember this. Good luck finding any allies in the future.
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Politics is a dirty business. If we were to keep every single promise we made to everybody, America would have been destroyed by now. Those are facts- its time you all stop your ridiculous idealism and live in the real world. The Kurds are not the good guys in this- no one is.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
1) You realise you actually confess in that statement that Trump has betrayed US battlefield allies?

2) Give me an example of where Obama made anything like this decision and betrayed US battlefield allies?

3) Why now is the US beginning to backtrack and threaten Erdogan?
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I said no such thing.

My statement was that if it were Obama or Hillary that did this. Barely anyone on the left would be making a sound, nor possess a care about it.
 
Tangmo said:
So says a Right Wing shrink in Alabama. How's Roy Moore doing these dayze btw.

There's no defending Trump which is why the Right's posts have for most of the year been focused personally on individual posters.

The Right needs to face the reality this betrayal of an ally by Trump has turned military sentiment against him and strongly so. Irreversibly so. Trump's already bad relations with the armed forces have entered a new dimension of alienation that will only accelerate and intensify. Anyone who fails to see where this is going would be willfully deaf and blind.
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Actually military sentiment hasn't really changed that much against Trump.
Besides we've been talking about doing just this for years now and now that he's doing it. I really don't see a problem.

I mean the lot of you can cry and whine about this being some betrayal, or traitorous act all you like. But the fact of the matter is that it just isn't what you're trying to sell.
 
HumblePi said:
[h=2]U.S. military officers who fought in Syria say they are devastated and ashamed by Trump’s decision to abandon Kurdish-led forces.[/h]On Dec. 20, 2018, the day after U.S. President Donald Trump abruptly announced via Twitter that the United States would withdraw all U.S. forces from Syria, a group of U.S. soldiers set out on a routine patrol through Manbij, a Kurdish-held town in northern Syria.

A member of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) approached the American troops, according to a U.S. Army officer on patrol that day, who spoke to Foreign Policy on the condition of anonymity. The man broke down in tears, thanking the U.S. service members for their support.

“He took off his unit patch and gave it to me. It was the most emotional moment I’ve ever experienced,” said the officer, who fought alongside the SDF in the yearslong battle to defeat the Islamic State and is one of many retired and current service members who say they are devastated by Trump’s latest decision to withdraw troops from the border, paving the way for Turkey to launch a major attack on northeastern Syria.

“It is unacceptable to turn our back on them to a tyrant like [Turkish President Recep Tayyip] Erdogan, who views all Kurds as terrorists,” the retired officer said. “There will be a whole generation of U.S. military that will never forget this betrayal nor stop apologizing for it.”
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The thing I don't really get is the first couple of paragraphs talk about an event that appears to happen right after Trump made his announcement a few days ago. But yet later in the article we learn this story was claimed by a retired service member. Now maybe those who have never spent any time in the military won't catch this but anyone who has will Very quickly realize that separating from the military is not a quick process and to try and pretend that someone cane back from a deployment and are all ready retired in a week is beyond belief.

Look I am not arguing that trumps decision was correct because I don't believe it was. But the people willing to lie and make up stories just to support their narrative is simply pathetic.
 
ataraxia said:
I keep hearing how this is hypocritical because there was no outrage by Democrats at Obama for pulling out of Iraq. But there is absolutely no equivalence. When Obama pulled out of Iraq, the place was reasonably stable. No one thought they were being abandoned by us.

This abandonment of the Kurds, who fought alongside and shed so much blood for us over there, when we KNEW they were going to get eaten alive if we just abandoned them, was a betrayal of a loyal ally that will be remembered by any potential future ally for decades to come, if ever. This was a truly egregious betrayal.
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You do understand the kurds were not shedding blood for us correct. This is a straight up lie. They were shedding blood to defend there own territory and nothing else. Isis had invaded their territory and we're overrunning their cities. They really had no choice but to fight back. They were a useful ally at the time, just like they have been in the past, but to try and pretend like they were doing us some big favor is either you being simply naive and not understanding the world around you or you do understand and are dishonestly trying to use that to push your narrative.
 
Lisa said:
The Kurds fought alongside us during Bush's nightmare in Iraq and they were pivotal in subduing ISIL. We cannot betray them now after what they did for us. We cannot allow a minority to be wiped out in genocide just so Trump can please Erdogan and Putin.
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So can you tell me exactly what they did for us. And try not to use the fighting they did to defend their own lands as something they did for us. Because it's not.
 
braindrain said:
You do understand the kurds were not shedding blood for us correct. This is a straight up lie. They were shedding blood to defend there own territory and nothing else. Isis had invaded their territory and we're overrunning their cities. They really had no choice but to fight back. They were a useful ally at the time, just like they have been in the past, but to try and pretend like they were doing us some big favor is either you being simply naive and not understanding the world around you or you do understand and are dishonestly trying to use that to push your narrative.
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That what makes allies, common motives. The fact is they were fighting the same enemy we were. You don't abandon allies. The only one being naive about living in a world where you walk out on allies is Trump.
 
dave8383 said:
That what makes allies, common motives. The fact is they were fighting the same enemy we were. You don't abandon allies. The only one being naive about living in a world where you walk out on allies is Trump.
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And when those motives are no longer the same must you remain allies forever. The kurds want an independent state and that is not something we should be getting involved in. To think that countries hold on to alliances beyond when they support that countries goals is extremely naive. And the funniest part is that if the kurds came came to the US and implemented their ideals it would be those on the left that would be most outraged. But because this is a useful way to attack Trump it is all overlooked.
 
braindrain said:
And when those motives are no longer the same must you remain allies forever. The kurds want an independent state and that is not something we should be getting involved in. To think that countries hold on to alliances beyond when they support that countries goals is extremely naive. And the funniest part is that if the kurds came came to the US and implemented their ideals it would be those on the left that would be most outraged. But because this is a useful way to attack Trump it is all overlooked.
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To think that you abandon allies the minute there of no more use is the most naive view of all. Keep that up and you'll have no allies. You're talking out of your ass.
 
dave8383 said:
To think that you abandon allies the minute there of no more use is the most naive view of all. Keep that up and you'll have no allies. You're talking out of your ass.
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You do understand that is what nations do all the time. Furthermore you realize that the kurds as a whole are not some great wonderful people. If they became Americans the left would be against pretty much every thing the believe in.

And I don't think you really understand unconventional warfare, which our work fighting isis is one of our most successful attempts. It is well understood by those who conduct UW that you will work with people that at any given point you may abandon. That is the entire point. You are getting people other then Americans to fight and die to achieve our countries goals. And when those goals are met. Well all deals are off.

I have worked and fought along side the kurds for far more then most of those taking about how much blood the kurds are shedding. I spent two deployments up in erbil in iraq working with the kurds to kill AQI members. The kurds are not fighting terrorists to help the US. They are doing it because it is in thier best interest. The moment it no longer was they would stop. And I wouldn't blame them. Counties should do what is in their citizens best interest.
 
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Irredentist said:
He didn't remove troops from Syria, he just cleared the way for a Turkish attack on the Kurds. People who are supposed to be our Allies.
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there were 50 troops. 50. what are 50 troops going to do against the turkey national army who is an ally of ours by the way?
also where would the declaration of war come from to allow them to openly fire on another countries army?
 
dave8383 said:
That what makes allies, common motives. The fact is they were fighting the same enemy we were. You don't abandon allies. The only one being naive about living in a world where you walk out on allies is Trump.
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turkey is an ally.
 
HumblePi said:
[h=2]U.S. military officers who fought in Syria say they are devastated and ashamed by Trump’s decision to abandon Kurdish-led forces.[/h]On Dec. 20, 2018, the day after U.S. President Donald Trump abruptly announced via Twitter that the United States would withdraw all U.S. forces from Syria, a group of U.S. soldiers set out on a routine patrol through Manbij, a Kurdish-held town in northern Syria.

A member of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) approached the American troops, according to a U.S. Army officer on patrol that day, who spoke to Foreign Policy on the condition of anonymity. The man broke down in tears, thanking the U.S. service members for their support.

“He took off his unit patch and gave it to me. It was the most emotional moment I’ve ever experienced,” said the officer, who fought alongside the SDF in the yearslong battle to defeat the Islamic State and is one of many retired and current service members who say they are devastated by Trump’s latest decision to withdraw troops from the border, paving the way for Turkey to launch a major attack on northeastern Syria.

“It is unacceptable to turn our back on them to a tyrant like [Turkish President Recep Tayyip] Erdogan, who views all Kurds as terrorists,” the retired officer said. “There will be a whole generation of U.S. military that will never forget this betrayal nor stop apologizing for it.”
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Military officers in the field no doubt are unaware of all the factors which go into decisions at the Pentagon. Americans under Obama were directed to oust Assad, but Assad was fighting ISIS. That was confusing. Turkey is on the attack in Syria and it is likely the only way the US could protect our small number of troops there would be to send in major reinforcements, thus escalating the war at time when most Americans seem to be opposed to increasing our presence on foreign battlefields.

I understand the Kurds are now seeking working alignments with Assad to fight ISIS and other supporters of dummass false religious terrorism. I think that is probably a good thing. Help the people in these regions work together to fight their common enemies and allow the US to find a way to disentangle itself from these endless conflicts.
 
braindrain said:
You do understand that is what nations do all the time. Furthermore you realize that the kurds as a whole are not some great wonderful people. If they became Americans the left would be against pretty much every thing the believe in.

And I don't think you really understand unconventional warfare, which our work fighting isis is one of our most successful attempts. It is well understood by those who conduct UW that you will work with people that at any given point you may abandon. That is the entire point. You are getting people other then Americans to fight and die to achieve our countries goals. And when those goals are met. Well all deals are off.

I have worked and fought along side the kurds for far more then most of those taking about how much blood the kurds are shedding. I spent two deployments up in erbil in iraq working with the kurds to kill AQI members. The kurds are not fighting terrorists to help the US. They are doing it because it is in thier best interest. The moment it no longer was they would stop. And I wouldn't blame them. Counties should do what is in their citizens best interest.
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There are many SF who fought with the Kurds who don't bye your view that leaving is a good idea. And I understand unconventional warfare better than most and who you cut ties with, and when, and who you don't. And clearly you missed that part of your education.
 
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PoS said:
Yes, our allies, the Kurds- who engage in terrorism. If you think theyre our friends, then I sure would like to know who you consider as enemies.
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Those 'terrorists' were guarding ISIS prisoners who will probably soon be released as the Kurds move out. Another genius move by Trump who knows more than the generals. The Kurds were also responsible for guarding US special forces-Green Berets.
 
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Oborosen said:
Can you just once, refrain from letting your ignorance shine so brightly as this?
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Can you once, refrain from making a vacuous declaration without backing it up and revealing your debate skill incompetence?
 
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braindrain said:
You do understand the kurds were not shedding blood for us correct. This is a straight up lie. They were shedding blood to defend there own territory and nothing else. Isis had invaded their territory and we're overrunning their cities. They really had no choice but to fight back. They were a useful ally at the time, just like they have been in the past, but to try and pretend like they were doing us some big favor is either you being simply naive and not understanding the world around you or you do understand and are dishonestly trying to use that to push your narrative.
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Who else was imprisoning and guarding thousands of ISIS terrorists? Who was guarding US special forces camps? They were doing the West a huge favour, and now your idiotic 'president' has abandoned them. Nice work America!
 
marke said:
Military officers in the field no doubt are unaware of all the factors which go into decisions at the Pentagon. Americans under Obama were directed to oust Assad, but Assad was fighting ISIS. That was confusing. Turkey is on the attack in Syria and it is likely the only way the US could protect our small number of troops there would be to send in major reinforcements, thus escalating the war at time when most Americans seem to be opposed to increasing our presence on foreign battlefields.

I understand the Kurds are now seeking working alignments with Assad to fight ISIS and other supporters of dummass false religious terrorism. I think that is probably a good thing. Help the people in these regions work together to fight their common enemies and allow the US to find a way to disentangle itself from these endless conflicts.
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It appears that even those in the Pentagon were unaware of the reasons for the withdrawal.
 
Oborosen said:
I said no such thing.

My statement was that if it were Obama or Hillary that did this. Barely anyone on the left would be making a sound, nor possess a care about it.
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Oborosen said:
Actually military sentiment hasn't really changed that much against Trump.
Besides we've been talking about doing just this for years now and now that he's doing it. I really don't see a problem.

I mean the lot of you can cry and whine about this being some betrayal, or traitorous act all you like. But the fact of the matter is that it just isn't what you're trying to sell.
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So how's the weather in Munich these dayze. That paper you just signed is going to come back at you. Pretty soon too.

Back in Washington there's a big storm cloud over the White House if you didn't notice. There's a lotta wind and rain battering that white flag Trump just ran up the pole. Trump in his raingear looks like a drug smuggler on a sinking boat.

Trump signed on to Turkey sanctions because his guy Erdogan turned out to be one himself. Trump whipped out his sharpie on this one because Congress has enough votes to override a veto twice. As Trump knows however once is enough. It's one of the few things he does know but only because Moscow Mitch told him. Trump's presidency has become a big CYA and a very big one it is

The disaster of it though is that Putin-Trump and Rowers all come out ahead on this one. It shows again how a potus can wreck the national security by one phone call that no number of follow up actions can undo. For Trump the law of diminishing utility applies because he's running out of both the authority and the legitimacy of the office he abuses endlessly and ever so profoundly. Trump is already surrendering the national sovereignty to Ukraine against their will and to China where they want hands off. Putin meanwhile has proved himself to be a fool for getting himself in so deeply and over such an extended time.

You were saying...
 
HumblePi said:
It appears that even those in the Pentagon were unaware of the reasons for the withdrawal.
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Some, probably, were unaware. Those at the top of the chain of command, however, were obviously aware.
 
marke said:
Some, probably, were unaware. Those at the top of the chain of command, however, were obviously aware.
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Sure, the Pentagon was made aware of the withdrawal but it was an abrupt decision on Trump's part and I doubt that even one General agreed with the decision.

For a while, the generals at the Pentagon thought they were succeeding within the narrow confines of maneuver room that Mr. Trump gave them, obeying the president’s order while not deserting Kurdish partners and undercutting gains against the Islamic State in northeastern Syria. Defense Department officials devised a plan for the Pentagon to cut its combat force there roughly in half by early this past May, or to about 1,000 troops — and then pause with what commanders called a “residual force.” Caught Between Trump, Turkey and Kurds, Pentagon Struggles to Piece Together Syria Strategy - The New York Times
 
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