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Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

PIPEWRENCH said:
I would love my tax money to be used to secure the border to my country. What I don't like is when my tax money is handed over to billionaires for screwing up. What I don't like is when my tax money is used to reward some lazy loser who has never worked and has no intention of ever working.
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That's not really what we were discussing.

I have no problem with my tax $ going to effective border security.

There's little evidence that this wall is such.
 
Lursa said:
That's not really what we were discussing.

I have no problem with my tax $ going to effective border security.

There's little evidence that this wall is such.
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Walls and fences are there 24/7. Walls stop masses of people from overwhelming our border patrol. When I was in the military we clearly trained in the effective use of barriers. So this whole lie that walls and fences do not work may sound good to the people that have never had to traverse them in real life situations. But anyone that has had to deal with them know that properly built and used they are very effective. So you are wasting your time trying to bull **** me. we were trained to build and use any and all natural or man made barriers because they do work.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Walls and fences are there 24/7. Walls stop masses of people from overwhelming our border patrol. When I was in the military we clearly trained in the effective use of barriers. So this whole lie that walls and fences do not work may sound good to the people that have never had to traverse them in real life situations. But anyone that has had to deal with them know that properly built and used they are very effective. So you are wasting your time trying to bull **** me. we were trained to build and use any and all natural or man made barriers because they do work.
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Didnt say walls dont work. You should try to read better. I've written much more about solutions here but there are so many threads on it that I'm tired of repeating it.

Did they teach you anything about cost/benefit analysis in the military?
 
The point is that Mexico not paying for the wall shouldn't be a showstopper for the wall. The wall needs to be built. The debate on how to get Mexico to pay for it can be deferred for later.
 
I agree completely with what you're saying. It's really what's missing from the entire discussion.

I think immigration has been a huge benefit to this country possibly in part because I'm a second generation American - my grandparents were born in Italy - and live in an extremely diverse part of the country. And in being completely honest I have a lot of sympathy for illegal immigrants - there are a fair number here and two of my son's closest friend were initially here illegally from El Salvador (though they are now legal).

Though the flip side of that is that we also have some MS13 types here as well - three purported MS13 members, of high school age, were arrested just last week for stabbing another high school kid in a brawl. So yes we need to control our borders and we need a sane immigration policy. I just haven't seen evidence that spending all that money on a wall will help with that. I'd think it needs to be combination approach with fencing in some areas, surveillance in others and more border agents. More importantly I think we need to do a better job of keeping track of people of overstay their visas and checking cargo and trucks that come into the country.

And finally I think our immigration process needs to be overhauled. A personal story that shows just how broken the system is. I have a contractor, from India, who works for me. The man has a unique skillset that is hard to come by - I know because I've tried hiring citizens to do the job he does but 6 months of looking our HR department found no one qualified. Anyway I'm working to make him a full time employee. That would require us to take over his green card process which my company doesn't like to do because it's a huge pain in the ass. I finally convinced HR that we should so we're in the process of making the guy a job offer. In taking over his green card process I found out he's been working towards getting a green card since 2011 and, according to my HR contact, given the speed of the immigration process he probably still has another 2-3 years before he can become a permanent resident. That puts the time at a decade or a little more. That's a long time for someone to exist in limbo.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
It's not only a cost/benefit analysis situation it's a matter of accurate problem definition. Is the problem really how foreign nationals are entering or remaining in the country without permission (illegally) or why they are doing so?

I think that we need to focus on the why aspect of illegal immigration which is primarily for our employment opportunity, public services, birthright citizenship and social programs. So long as these are available to all residents and not limited to legal residents then the illegal inflow will continue.
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I don't think you can change the why. People have been coming here for 200 years to make better lives for themselves. You can't change that. Even if you denied them public services etc people would still come here and find a way to survive because here for a lot of them would still be far better than wherever they came from.

It would be better to recognize that and recognize that we need them as well - we're at near full employment and there is still a large market for the cheap labor that illegals provide - and come up with a saner immigration policy.
 
sanman said:
The point is that Mexico not paying for the wall shouldn't be a showstopper for the wall. The wall needs to be built. The debate on how to get Mexico to pay for it can be deferred for later.
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While you wrote, the wall needs to be built, there are highly meritorious conclusions that the wall is an ineffectual, expensive project, that wasn't the result of a thought-out analysis. It was created to be a cheer-line at campaign rallies. It's merely a simplistic 'solution' to a complex problem. As others have already written, most undocumented aliens enter via plane, boat, or the northern border and overstay their visa.

Brushing off Trump's promise that Mexico would pay for the wall as unimportant, dismisses those campaign event attendees as pawns. Trump yelled, "who's going to pay for the wall" and they yell back, "MEXICO!" Now, you say that isn't important, which is an admission that it was merely a cynical campaign ploy and prop, that doesn't matter after it propelled him into office.

The fact that not even Republicans in the House and Senate put the wall into the budget over the last two years, should tell you something.


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This thread isn't a discussion of whether there is value in the wall, a position that most Americans reject. It's about Trump's denial now that he even said Mexico would pay for the wall.

Wolf Blitzer on Twitter

@wolfblitzer
20h20 hours ago

At a Republican presidential debate in 2016, I asked @realDonaldTrump: "If you don't get an actual check from the Mexican government for $8 billion or $10 billion or $12 billion, whatever it will cost, how are you going to make them pay for the wall?" Here's his response:

<See Video>
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Gaius46 said:
I don't think you can change the why. People have been coming here for 200 years to make better lives for themselves. You can't change that. Even if you denied them public services etc people would still come here and find a way to survive because here for a lot of them would still be far better than wherever they came from.

It would be better to recognize that and recognize that we need them as well - we're at near full employment and there is still a large market for the cheap labor that illegals provide - and come up with a saner immigration policy.
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You are ignoring the elephant in the room - illegal immigrants don't dare complain about low pay, other labor law violations or unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. What we can change is allowing US employers to deduct 100% of the cost of using illegal immigrant labor from their federal income tax liability. Mandate universal E-Verify and change the federal income tax code such that that only direct labor costs associated with (W-2 and 1099) labor which also has a current E-Verify certification can be deducted.
 
JasperL said:
Either way, it's wrong to assert that illegals cannot get an ID for work and pay taxes. A dairy farmer near me was audited and his work crew was mostly 'illegals' because that's who would do the work. He was paying them cash for services. The IRS didn't really care (it's not their job to care) about the immigration status of the workers, but did ding him for not paying payroll taxes and withholding, and required him to get ITINs for his workers and file back returns for them, including SS and Medicare, and to comply with employment laws going forward. The point is to put employers of 'illegals' on the same tax footing as those who employ legal workers with regard to payroll taxes, etc.
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Another "fun" thing that the IRS can do is to simply disallow the "expense" and deem that all of the claimed money was personal income so that the employer has to pay income tax on it themselves.

A few -very well publicized - cases where the employer has to pay income tax on several hundreds of thousands of dollars that they never actually had, will smarten up those who attempt to evade/avoid the law.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You are ignoring the elephant in the room - illegal immigrants don't dare complain about low pay, other labor law violations or unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. What we can change is allowing US employers to deduct 100% of the cost of using illegal immigrant labor from their federal income tax liability. Mandate universal E-Verify and change the federal income tax code such that that only direct labor costs associated with (W-2 and 1099) labor which also has a current E-Verify certification can be deducted.
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That's a good idea.

You do realize that E-Verify is currently not operating because of the shutdown, don't you?
 
Lursa said:
Didnt say walls dont work. You should try to read better. I've written much more about solutions here but there are so many threads on it that I'm tired of repeating it.

Did they teach you anything about cost/benefit analysis in the military?
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Absolutely. The wall, fence, or barrier are extremely cost effective. Once built it will do its job for decades if not centuries or until it is no longer needed. Just about every time industry, the military, or countries need security or to keep people in or out the wall, fence, or other physical barrier is always the first solution. I went to the AO Smith Water Heater factory and because of the crime in Juarez. Guess what? A nice concrete wall encircling the factory, parking lot, and grounds. Why? Because the wall was cheaper than manpower without a wall. This is common knowledge all over the world and the reason millions if not billions of walls are erected and are currently being built. They are cost effective and work otherwise they would not be built and in use all over the world.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You are ignoring the elephant in the room - illegal immigrants don't dare complain about low pay, other labor law violations or unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. What we can change is allowing US employers to deduct 100% of the cost of using illegal immigrant labor from their federal income tax liability. Mandate universal E-Verify and change the federal income tax code such that that only direct labor costs associated with (W-2 and 1099) labor which also has a current E-Verify certification can be deducted.
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But we need the labor. I agree people need to enter and reside legally but chasing off illegal workers before fixing the immigration system will simply leave those jobs unfilled and hurt mostly small employers.
 
Gaius46 said:
But we need the labor. I agree people need to enter and reside legally but chasing off illegal workers before fixing the immigration system will simply leave those jobs unfilled and hurt mostly small employers.
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The jobs will not remain unfilled unless the wages/benefits offered are not sufficient to attract and retain qualified legal workers.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You are ignoring the elephant in the room - illegal immigrants don't dare complain about low pay, other labor law violations or unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. What we can change is allowing US employers to deduct 100% of the cost of using illegal immigrant labor from their federal income tax liability. Mandate universal E-Verify and change the federal income tax code such that that only direct labor costs associated with (W-2 and 1099) labor which also has a current E-Verify certification can be deducted.
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And the fact that we have millions on public assistance that should be taking those jobs, like it or not.

We need to invest more in getting them into the workforce. Getting our own citizens involved in an entry into the job market would help our country in many ways. And those people as well.

(Yes, I realize it's easy to write and difficult to do...but that doesnt mean it's not necessary)
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Absolutely. The wall, fence, or barrier are extremely cost effective. Once built it will do its job for decades if not centuries or until it is no longer needed. Just about every time industry, the military, or countries need security or to keep people in or out the wall, fence, or other physical barrier is always the first solution. I went to the AO Smith Water Heater factory and because of the crime in Juarez. Guess what? A nice concrete wall encircling the factory, parking lot, and grounds. Why? Because the wall was cheaper than manpower without a wall. This is common knowledge all over the world and the reason millions if not billions of walls are erected and are currently being built. They are cost effective and work otherwise they would not be built and in use all over the world.
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No it's not and the reasons have been outlined here and in the media many times. I"m not going to repeat it all here but there's some in the last few pages in this thread, showing exactly what the border patrol has said: the majority of drugs and humans being trafficked come thru the main portals smuggled on trucks and in cars.

Then just think how for just $1 billion would go towards investigating, identifying, and penalizing employers who hire illegals? Dry up the jobs, then those coming in for work stop coming. That's exactly what happened during the economic crisis in '08-09.

Simple, Reader's Digest version ^^, there's much more but I doubt you want to hear it.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The jobs will not remain unfilled unless the wages/benefits offered are not sufficient to attract and retain qualified legal workers.
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We’re pretty much at full employment right now. There aren’t enough available legal workers to go around. That’s my point.
 
Lursa said:
And the fact that we have millions on public assistance that should be taking those jobs, like it or not.

We need to invest more in getting them into the workforce. Getting our own citizens involved in an entry into the job market would help our country in many ways. And those people as well.

(Yes, I realize it's easy to write and difficult to do...but that doesnt mean it's not necessary)
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By ‘millions on public assistance’ you mean single moms and children, right?

If not, what ‘assistance’ are you talking about?
 
Threegoofs said:
By ‘millions on public assistance’ you mean single moms and children, right?

If not, what ‘assistance’ are you talking about?
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Anybody that's not working and getting public assistance.
 
Gaius46 said:
We’re pretty much at full employment right now. There aren’t enough available legal workers to go around. That’s my point.
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Nonsense, we are paying folks "safety net" benefits to work 20 hours/week at McJobs which pay less than those jobs now eagerly taken by illegal immigrants. I have no difficulty finding temporary help (labor) when I need it. Of course, I pay at least $100/day for that help, provide transportation to/from the job site and lunch - sometimes even tossing in a few beers after work.
 
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