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Trump announces steel and aluminum tariffs Thursday over objections from advisers and Republicans

I'm trying to figure out how people can abandon common sense and and ignore historical economic precedent for no other reason than to defend Trump's patently foreign trade strategy. "Trade wars are good!" What?!?!? Who says **** like that? Oh yeah...

What drugs did his mother do while she was pregnant with him?
 
Actually, I never claimed to be a proponent of Trumps trade war rhetoric or tariffs for that matter.

You did feign ignorance of how market economies operate when you stated:

Im not following how cheap Chinese steel is good for the US economy or our manufacturing base ?

Believe it or not, you can be a supporter of free trade AND call attention to unfair trade practices and the detriments of dumping without being a hypocrite

U.S. steel manufactures are currently able to file dumping grievances with the Department of Commerce. As stated in the OP's article, there are already 169 trade taxes in place with respect to steel imports. I find absolutely no reason as to why the Trump administration would unilaterally move to set additional tariffs, other than pandering to the least informed subset base.

The EU just instituted new anti-dumping regulations aimed at China, and I didn't notice any Libersl poutrage over it, and our Commerce Dept just implemented new anti-dumping regulations.

Why would U.S. citizens express outrage over E.U. regulations aimed at China?

If you people weren't so consumed with anti-Trump partisan hatred, you would probably agree that China's unfair trade policies need to be addressed

You are pretending there are not policies and mechanisms already in place to address these issues.
 
Why is he ignoring China's theft of intellectual property rights, companies forced to turn over source code and such to do business in China?

Because he does not want to antagonize Gyna, he wants to play nice with mighty dictatorial leaders like Putin and the Chairman of Communist Gyna and instead starts picking fights with Canada, Mexico and Europe/EU/NATO because his supporters care more about the wall which Mexico is going to pay for than things that should worry them much more like Putin and China.
 
You did feign ignorance of how market economies operate when you stated:





U.S. steel manufactures are currently able to file dumping grievances with the Department of Commerce. As stated in the OP's article, there are already 169 trade taxes in place with respect to steel imports. I find absolutely no reason as to why the Trump administration would unilaterally move to set additional tariffs, other than pandering to the least informed subset base.



Why would U.S. citizens express outrage over E.U. regulations aimed at China?



You are pretending there are not policies and mechanisms already in place to address these issues.

In 2000 our trade deficit with China was 83 billion. By 2015 it had risen to 366 billion.

Im not going to pretend those mechanisms you mentioned have been effective in the least, and neither should anyone else

Im not a proponent of Trumps plan, but he did campaign on reducing our trade deficit and renegotiating NAFTA and he pulled out of TPP.

This shouldnt surprise anyone, and it wouldn't be the first time a US president imposed tariffs to address currency manipulation

In 1971, Nixon imposed a 10 percent surcharge on Germany and Japan. Germany agreed to reevaluate its currency and Japan, not so much.
 
True. Steel is a graded and specialized commodity of many types, and which undergoes various transformations into finished steel products. Steel companies, such as Nucor don't just produce raw steel, but also fabricate girders, beams, grids, etc. And Nucor does it successfully with technology and using recycled steel (rather than iron). As such they export to many markets, and US steel consumers also buy from many markets. Nucor does some things better, while another foreign company may do other things better. THAT is the nature of trade. HENCE Canadian steel is not always cheaper (which, by the way, is why Canada imports more steel than it exports).

Finally, one should note that car-truck companies span international borders, obtaining various steel parts from various sourcing - including competent steel parts that are shipped across our borders with Canada (engines, transmissions, etc.). A steel tariff on either side of the border will seriously alter and complicate investment patterns, parts sourcing, and ROI planning for multi-nationals...

The Trump tariff is, for most economists of any ideological leanings, a really dumb and destructive idea.

It's possible Trump sees this as a ploy, gamesmanship in the NAFTA negotiations. If so, I doubt it'll work. Canadian negotiators are not likely to be made to feel urgency by this. More likely it'll stall talks while all parties try to work out the ramifications of the tariff, and time will allow American companies to bring pressure to bear to at least exempt Canada, if not rethink the whole thing.
And then there's the US International Trade Commission, who recently overturned a Dep't of Commerce 300% tariff on the Canadian company Bombardier Aerospace. I don't know what their powers are, but they might be able to toss this one out, too.
 
It's possible Trump sees this as a ploy, gamesmanship in the NAFTA negotiations. If so, I doubt it'll work. Canadian negotiators are not likely to be made to feel urgency by this. More likely it'll stall talks while all parties try to work out the ramifications of the tariff, and time will allow American companies to bring pressure to bear to at least exempt Canada, if not rethink the whole thing.
And then there's the US International Trade Commission, who recently overturned a Dep't of Commerce 300% tariff on the Canadian company Bombardier Aerospace. I don't know what their powers are, but they might be able to toss this one out, too.

If the MSM is to be believed, Trump didn't think at all. He was in a rage over recent events and Wilbur Ross suggested that he let it out by going after China (etc.).

If true, that is a rather frightening reaction; thankfully no one suggested bombing North Korea.
 
It's possible Trump sees this as a ploy, gamesmanship in the NAFTA negotiations.

If so, it's a very reckless ploy. It seems the only people that support this maneuver are also the same people that don't like foreigners and don't understand or appreciate the global market's influence on U.S. domestic trade.
 
If so, it's a very reckless ploy. It seems the only people that support this maneuver are also the same people that don't like foreigners and don't understand or appreciate the global market's influence on U.S. domestic trade.

It's important to also keep in mind that a lot of Trump's support comes from people who have never traveled outside the US, or indeed even outside their own state.

https://www.quora.com/What-percenta...rs-have-traveled-outside-of-the-United-States
 
Before i responded, it would be most appreciated if you could properly format your response.

In 2000 our trade deficit with China was 83 billion. By 2015 it had risen to 366 billion.

So???? Trade is not a zero sum game. You will find that when trade declines, economic output decreases as well.

Im not going to pretend those mechanisms you mentioned have been effective in the least, and neither should anyone else

I see. So because Trump has found a way to energize the most economically illiterate portion of his base (which also happens to be a majority), we should denounce the principles of trade and new growth? Sorry... i disagree entirely.

Im not a proponent of Trumps plan, but he did campaign on reducing our trade deficit and renegotiating NAFTA and he pulled out of TPP.

The trade deficit is a function of foreign savings, not some magical wand waved by the executive. So let's examine some data:

fredgraph.png


Notice anything? If not, you have absolutely no reason to respond.

This shouldnt surprise anyone, and it wouldn't be the first time a US president imposed tariffs to address currency manipulation

Currency manipulation? Where do you come up with this ****? China ceased their hard peg in 2010. This is purely a political ploy to energize the LCD of Trump's base, likely to the detriment of the country as a whole.
 
Where am I wrong here. If the USA produces 75% of the steel we use & import the other 25%. The effect of the 25% tariff on consumers would only be
6.25%. I don't think the 25% figure is etched in stone either a 20% tariff if my math is correct would mean a 4% increase to consimers of steel products.

That's not an accurate estimate, as it excludes how the pricing power of the world's chief producer of steel impacts aggregate pricing. But for now, humor me. Why is a 4% steel price increase good for consumers?

Perhaps the tariffs would only be put on countries known for dumping & other devious practices.

There are already measures in place to deal with this sort of problem. Perhaps you want to address the inadequacy of the current system.

I think something should be done to make sure U.S. steel makers get the necessary protection in order to remain viable.

If it comes down to viability in and of itself... absolutely. However, how can you make such a case?

In the last decade I recall a few steel companies going under. The industry that was one of the primary factors in overtaking
Britain as the greatest economic & military power in the world about 100 years ago ought to remain productive & profitable.

Economic ignorance in the name of nostalgia is a very bad idea IMO.
 
I strongly believe that a huge chunk if not the majority of the conservative base does not approve of protectionism. If anything it seems to be a split within the Conservative base. The libertarians like myself of course I'm sure are in 100% agreement with our opposition to protectionism.

You should make a a poll... the results would likely surprise you.
 
You should make a a poll... the results would likely surprise you.

Honestly, you're right. There are some self proclaimed libertarians on this board who are on board with tariffs.

If you ask me that's like a free market socialist :lamo

But you know what? I think I'll take you up on that offer and make a poll and kinda see where it goes.
 
I don't understand why the liberals are freaking out about the steel and aluminum tariff.

Canada and Mexico, for instance, do NOT produce raw steel. They get their raw steel from China and turn it into "products", which in turn they sell to the US of A.

In plain words: China uses NAFTA to circumvent tariffs in order to ship their steel to the US market.

The WSJ had an article in September 2016 on how a Chinese company stockpiled aluminum in Mexico in order to circumvent trade agreements ... stock pile of $2 billion worth of aluminum destined for the American market "... U.S. aluminum executives claim Liu Zhongtian, founder of Chinese metals conglomerate China Zhongwang, used a factory in Mexico to game the global trade system ..."

You may think we are importing steel from Canada/Mexico, when in fact we are importing steel from China that has been "reformed" in Canada/Mexico.

Just like car parts that have been assembled in Mexico and Canada ... from small parts that were shipped from China.
Canada/Mexico just put their "Made in ..." stamp on the assembled product.
 
I don't understand why the liberals are freaking out about the steel and aluminum tariff.

Canada and Mexico, for instance, do NOT produce raw steel. They get their raw steel from China and turn it into "products", which in turn they sell to the US of A.

In plain words: China uses NAFTA to circumvent tariffs in order to ship their steel to the US market.

The WSJ had an article in September 2016 on how a Chinese company stockpiled aluminum in Mexico in order to circumvent trade agreements ... stock pile of $2 billion worth of aluminum destined for the American market "... U.S. aluminum executives claim Liu Zhongtian, founder of Chinese metals conglomerate China Zhongwang, used a factory in Mexico to game the global trade system ..."

You may think we are importing steel from Canada/Mexico, when in fact we are importing steel from China that has been "reformed" in Canada/Mexico.

Just like car parts that have been assembled in Mexico and Canada ... from small parts that were shipped from China.
Canada/Mexico just put their "Made in ..." stamp on the assembled product.

Read this thread before you post and maybe you see why lots of people, liberal and conservative are concerned. This is not a partisan issue.
 
I don't understand why the liberals are freaking out about the steel and aluminum tariff.

Canada and Mexico, for instance, do NOT produce raw steel. They get their raw steel from China and turn it into "products", which in turn they sell to the US of A.

In plain words: China uses NAFTA to circumvent tariffs in order to ship their steel to the US market.

The WSJ had an article in September 2016 on how a Chinese company stockpiled aluminum in Mexico in order to circumvent trade agreements ... stock pile of $2 billion worth of aluminum destined for the American market "... U.S. aluminum executives claim Liu Zhongtian, founder of Chinese metals conglomerate China Zhongwang, used a factory in Mexico to game the global trade system ..."

You may think we are importing steel from Canada/Mexico, when in fact we are importing steel from China that has been "reformed" in Canada/Mexico.

Just like car parts that have been assembled in Mexico and Canada ... from small parts that were shipped from China.
Canada/Mexico just put their "Made in ..." stamp on the assembled product.

How about you re-read the actual article.

Next, it would serve you best to see how this has been played out:

NEW YORK — Attorneys representing the United States have commenced a forfeiture action on aluminium pallets seized from warehouses operated by Perfectus Aluminum Inc, claiming the nearly 300,000 pallets seized are part of a long-alleged transshipment scheme by China Zhongwang Holdings Ltd.

The complaint offers further insight into the reported scheme, in which Zhongwang allegedly used proxy companies to move Chinese aluminium extrusions - tagged with a deceptive classification - into the United States and avoid paying approximately $1.5 billion in tariffs.

“At least one of the purposes of the scheme was to artificially inflate China Zhongwang’s revenues, thereby increasing its stock price and [Zhongwang founder] Zhongtian Liu’s personal wealth... Another purpose of the scheme was to allow Zhongtian Liu to transfer substantial assets, in the form of aluminium, out of China,” according to the complaint, filed by assistant US attorney Steven Welk with the US District Court for central California on February 7.

“Between 2011 and at least 2014, Zhongtian Liu used Perfectus to illegally import more than 2.1 million bogus pallets from China into the United States,” the complaint states.

The US detained some 279,808 aluminium pallets in 2017, according to the filing. Of those, 144,064 were seized in a series of raids on September 14 - roughly a year after hundreds of Perfectus shipping containers were held as part of “an ongoing criminal investigation,” Welk said at the time.

The 279,808 pallets are in the custody of the US Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection, where they will remain until the court action is concluded, the attorneys wrote.
http://www.amm.com/Article/3786570/US-files-forfeiture-action-on-Perfectus-pallets.html


source


Why do we need additional tariffs?
 
I don't understand why the liberals are freaking out about the steel and aluminum tariff.

Canada and Mexico, for instance, do NOT produce raw steel. They get their raw steel from China and turn it into "products", which in turn they sell to the US of A.

In plain words: China uses NAFTA to circumvent tariffs in order to ship their steel to the US market.

The WSJ had an article in September 2016 on how a Chinese company stockpiled aluminum in Mexico in order to circumvent trade agreements ... stock pile of $2 billion worth of aluminum destined for the American market "... U.S. aluminum executives claim Liu Zhongtian, founder of Chinese metals conglomerate China Zhongwang, used a factory in Mexico to game the global trade system ..."

You may think we are importing steel from Canada/Mexico, when in fact we are importing steel from China that has been "reformed" in Canada/Mexico.

Just like car parts that have been assembled in Mexico and Canada ... from small parts that were shipped from China.
Canada/Mexico just put their "Made in ..." stamp on the assembled product.

There's thousands of peope working in Canadian steel mills who will be surprised to learn they're not producing steel.
I'm calling bull****. I'm calling you a liar.
 
If foreign producers are dumping into the American market then this action is warranted.
 
How about you re-read the actual article.

Next, it would serve you best to see how this has been played out:



source[/URL]

Why do we need additional tariffs?

Because that guy was not the only one ... but he was the one that got caught.
 
Because that guy was not the only one ... but he was the one that got caught.

I have faith that industry insiders and watchdogs have a better grasp of the situation than a random internet person. It's 2018... not 1918.
 
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Canada doesn’t manufacture steel, they purchase steel and manufacture ‘products’. A considerable difference.

Do you see Canada anywhere in the following list?!?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_steel_producers

A list of the largest steel producing companies in the world. And no Canadian company is on it, so this means Canada doesn't produce steel.

https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/steel-production

Here we are, number 17 but not bad for a small nation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_production
 
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