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But, but where could God come from

TypicalRussian said:
YIKES!!

If objective morals do not exist than objective evil can not exist, so down goes the evil argument.

If objective morals do not exist than objective truth about it can not exist, or any truth

See how it all falls down
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And, do you know what 'objective' means?
 
Elvira said:
Absolutely it is...we also strive to follow the Christian Greek Scriptures as closely as possible...
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That's a good rule of thumb, Orthodox Christinaity is based off the Apostle Paul so what he tought is the main priority apart from Jesus and the Bible
 
TypicalRussian said:
Atheism does not support answers because they can't answer things that Theism can with facts and logic
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Theism doesn't answer anything. It merely purports to provide answers, which there is no rational reason to accept as true.
 
TypicalRussian said:
That's a good rule of thumb, Orthodox Christinaity is based off the Apostle Paul so what he tought is the main priority apart from Jesus and the Bible
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True...Paul wrote more of the Christian Greek Scriptures than any other apostles...he was such an humble, willing brother with much great advice...
 
Angel said:
"Hand-waving"? Can you tell us what you are calling "hand-waving"? The Vegas oddsmakers have it 5-2 that you cannot.

Here are four arguments for you to rebut:
https://www.debatepolitics.com/beliefs-and-skepticism/373366-proof-god.html#post1070832326
https://www.debatepolitics.com/beliefs-and-skepticism/373366-proof-god-196.html#post1071318790
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4. If God exists, God must exist. (definition)
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Non sequitur.

Forgive me if I don't bother going further.
 
TypicalRussian said:
Whenever a theist brings up the Cosmological argument, an atheist always has to step up and say "well where did God come from"

But there is a big difference between an observable thing and a God.

Where did God come from? Don’t we have to assume that if there is God, then there must have been something before Him that created Him?

These questions assume that everything, including God, is subject to the limitation of time and space, an assumption that the scientific community has questioned and virtually dismissed since Albert Einstein first published his special theory of relativity in 1905.

To accept that God exists outside the framework of time and space as we know it renders any question of what came before Him irrelevant. These questions might be legitimate if God is subject to our constraints of perception, which He is not. The Bible teaches that God is not bound by time or space, and that He simply has not chosen to reveal to us all that took place before He created the universe.

Where did God come from? - bethinking.org

This is a good point and a defense to a bad atheist rebuttal of the cosmological argument
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One question that could be asked if why is there something rather than nothing? If we establish that there are timeless things or causes that always existed, then why is it that they existed and not nothing. This is especially troubling if this cause is a God which is a very complex being. It would be like finding a watch and than just saying that it just existed forever with no cause. Its just hard to believe that something complex is what existed forever rather than nothing which sounds a lot simpler. This question is a problem for both religious and non-religious explanations.

One solution to this question is that God is a necessary being. He must logically exist which is why he exists rather than nothing. Maybe there is some logic or way that existence works that necessitates that God exists rather than nothing. Problem is that Christians have tried to present arguments (e.g. cosmological and ontological arguments) to prove this but so far have failed to provide a convincing why God is a necessary being who exists.

Another counter-argument is that if we accept the possibility that a timeless God could have made everything, then maybe we can just save one step, and just assume the universe was timeless, or is timeless and just has time within it. if the universe can be timeless then maybe it didn't need a God to create it. The big bang only explains the expansion of the universe and we are still working on the origin. Perhaps the universe always existed but in some other state. Maybe this universe is in a timeless multiverse, and a timeless cause there made this universe. Or just genetically a timeless non-intelligence caused this universe to exist.

And we can also question whether a being with intelligence makes any sense without time. All intelligent beings we see have brains and require atomic and chemical reactions to function. They also need physical body parts to make things happen. Maybe it is more likely the timeless thing is a simple force of some kind that doesn't so much explanation. But then, we can question how a timeless force/being can cause the universe to exist if there is no time for the creation to happen in. But maybe this question is just our lack of understanding of the universe.

All this philosophizing about timeless beings, infinite causality, and why anything exists at all might be trying to apply old-fashioned philosophy that assumes human assumptions about reality on a universe that makes no sense. The more we learn about the universe the less it makes sense and the more we realize that our assumptions from daily observation are wrong. We have the theory of relativity which says that mass bends space and time and space can be curved, or that time is an assumption and there is a possibility of being outside it. Or with quantum mechanics and particles popping in and out of existence or light sometimes being waves or particles. We are also playing around with 12 dimensional string theory and a multiverse outside this one. Maybe these philosophical conundrum is just we humans just not understanding how the universe works yet, and simple philosophy failing to understand a completely anti-intuitive universe. Its possible the real answer is that we just don't know yet and will have to wait.
 
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TypicalRussian said:
Yes I do know it means because objective **anything** can exist
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Ah, that is your problem. You do not know the meanings of concepts. I see. Well, have a good life.
 
Elvira said:
True...Paul wrote more of the Christian Greek Scriptures than any other apostles...he was such an humble, willing brother with much great advice...
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Saul was a persecutor of Christians. There is no one who can say Saul had any vision but could merely been a heat stroke.
To claim he became Paul with no proof and believe he can write the majority of doctrine Christians should follow is very dangerous. Like listening to a wolf in sheep clothing.
 
dairyair said:
Saul was a persecutor of Christians. There is no one who can say Saul had any vision but could merely been a heat stroke.
To claim he became Paul with no proof and believe he can write the majority of doctrine Christians should follow is very dangerous. Like listening to a wolf in sheep clothing.
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Yes, he was and he lived to regret it immensely, trying to make amends 100 times over...the gift of forgiveness is powerful thing...
 
Elvira said:
Yes, he was and he lived to regret it immensely, trying to make amends 100 times over...the gift of forgiveness is powerful thing...
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As I said, like believing a wolf in sheep clothing.
Saul has no authority, none.
 
Elvira said:
Yes, he was and he lived to regret it immensely, trying to make amends 100 times over...the gift of forgiveness is powerful thing...
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He never met Jesus. He only CLAIMED a vision. He was an interloper who invented Christianity. Jesus NEVER said anything at all about the law dying on the cross. That was fabricated by Paul.
 
Paradoxical said:
He never met Jesus. He only CLAIMED a vision. He was an interloper who invented Christianity. Jesus NEVER said anything at all about the law dying on the cross. That was fabricated by Paul.
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And he lived the rest of his life trying to atone for his mistakes...
 
Elvira said:
Yes, he was and he lived to regret it immensely, trying to make amends 100 times over...the gift of forgiveness is powerful thing...
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From my observations, that is what many of the televangelists do, or at least mimic for their flock. Jimmy Bakker crying crocodile tears earned him much forgiveness from his followers.
 
RAMOSS said:
From my observations, that is what many of the televangelists do, or at least mimic for their flock. Jimmy Bakker crying crocodile tears earned him much forgiveness from his followers.
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The difference between sincerity and hypocrisy...
 
Elvira said:
The difference between sincerity and hypocrisy...
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Did you know Paul personally?? You just saw filtered writings of his.
 
Elvira said:
And he lived the rest of his life trying to atone for his mistakes...
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It's not a mistake to claim something that never happened. Particularly claiming that "law" was fulfilled when Jesus himself said the "law" would always apply. He just made that up.

He also made his vision up. No one in the bible or anywhere else corroborated his alleged vision.
 
Elvira said:
Do you?
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No, but I can observe that the techniques that are used have been adopted by the con men and hypocrites, and those techniques probably are far older than the 1st century too.
 
RAMOSS said:
From my observations, that is what many of the televangelists do, or at least mimic for their flock. Jimmy Bakker crying crocodile tears earned him much forgiveness from his followers.
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Paul was a wannabe apostle. If he was an apostle, he would have been number 13.
 
RAMOSS said:
No, but I can observe that the techniques that are used have been adopted by the con men and hypocrites, and those techniques probably are far older than the 1st century too.
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Aa I can choose to observe how he lived out the rest of his life...hypocrites do not live and die for a cause...
 
Elvira said:
Aa I can choose to observe how he lived out the rest of his life...hypocrites do not live and die for a cause...
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However, con men get greedy, and slip up , and have to pay the price.
 
Paradoxical said:
It's not a mistake to claim something that never happened. Particularly claiming that "law" was fulfilled when Jesus himself said the "law" would always apply. He just made that up.

He also made his vision up. No one in the bible or anywhere else corroborated his alleged vision.
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Let him without sin...
 
Elvira said:
Let him without sin...
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Funny thing about that passage. The earlier copies of the Gospel of John didn't have that in there. It was an insertion later. That makes it seem to be just a story.
 
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