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Which wars has the United States lost?

War of 1812 was a draw? the British burned the white house down...

Didn't kill our fighting spirit at all. And the end to the war shows it was a tie, even if we did get our ass tossed around for the first years of that war.
 
Didn't kill our fighting spirit at all. And the end to the war shows it was a tie, even if we did get our ass tossed around for the first years of that war.

If getting slapped back into the chair you stood up from is a tie, yeah, sure.
 
Let's have a discussion about which wars we should consider the US to have lost.
We are going to simply exclude the Civil War from the debate since it's not worth getting into the semantics. Also exclude silly "the war on xxx" things like the war on terror.


In my opinion, it is completely obvious that the US lost the Vietnam War. That one goes without question.

Korea ended in more of a stalemate so I don't think that should be considered a loss, rather a draw if anything.

The less obvious ones are Iraq and Afghanistan. We definitely succeeded in the initial goal of defeating Saddam in Iraq, but the attempt to replace the regime with a stable democracy was obviously a failure. So I am undecided on my verdict for Iraq right now. In the case of Afghanistan, we might just have to say that the war is still ongoing. At this point, though, I think it's extremely unlikely the US will win.

So my tally is:
1 loss (Vietnam)
2 draw (Korea, War of 1812)
1 ongoing (Afghanistan)
1 currently undecided (Iraq)

Everything else was a win.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

We lost Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq respectively.

In Korea we did our job of driving N.Korea out of the south. So, "stalemate"? No I don't think so.

Vietnam was over before we got there, very much for the same reasons that we have lost in the ME as well: envelopment of enemy forces and political agenda into friendly territories and a maintaining of position through terrorizing the populace and blending in. Our forces were never, and are not today, to our full potential because of political protectionism and agenda. So our forces have lost nothing in the way of war. Our politics and market agendas have lost everything and killed many good men that did not have to even be there.
 
American bias.

The US thought that, with Britain's hands full in Europe and only garrison troops in Canada, they could easily grab land. They learned different.
I don't know what Ohio and Indiana et al have to do with it. This was the US and related territory in 1812

OK, contrary to your comment, the war started before any "invasion" of Canada by the US.
Britain was the #1 military power in the world at the time and was aided by 15 Indian tribes. The US was an upstart country. Britain ended up with 48,000 Regulars versus 35,000 US Army. Seems odd that if the purpose of the war was to take over Canada then it why only 1,000 badly trained militia was used in the first attempt (plus 500 Canadians fighting for the Americans) and only 900 Regulars and 2,600 militia was used in the 2nd attempt (Queenston Heights).

The British failed at invading the US even worse than the US attempts in Canada. At the Battle of Plattsburgh, 14,000 British troops were defeated by 1,500 US Regulars. The British also lost the Battle of Baltimore despite a 5-2 advantage.

Although the War of 1812 ended in a stalemate and is often only dimly remembered, the war had many effects on the futures of those involved. The war created a greater sense of nationalism in Canada and the United States, it produced a national anthem and two future presidents for the U.S., and perhaps most consequentially, the war marked the end of European alliances with American Indians in the United States.

Canada, or rather Canadians, were minor players involved. But you did well in the Pig War.
 
If getting slapped back into the chair you stood up from is a tie, yeah, sure.

I mean yeah. It's sad that Britain had such trouble with such a backwater colony.

Of course today it doesn't matter.

Britain is, undoubtedly, politically, militarily, and economically incredibly inferior to the United States. Add your neck of the woods to that description too.
 
I mean yeah. It's sad that Britain had such trouble with such a backwater colony.

Of course today it doesn't matter.

Britain is, undoubtedly, politically, militarily, and economically incredibly inferior to the United States. Add your neck of the woods to that description too.

Ahh.
Bet that felt good, huh? And SOOO topical.
Now I remember...
 
I mean yeah. It's sad that Britain had such trouble with such a backwater colony.

Of course today it doesn't matter.

Britain is, undoubtedly, politically, militarily, and economically incredibly inferior to the United States. Add your neck of the woods to that description too.

Poltically: No... the UK is the most stable democracy in the world and is the father of common law which is utilized throughout the anglosphere, including the United States. The USA of today would not exist in it's current form if it was not for the Magna Carta and subsequent Bill of Rights, both of which originate in the UK.

Millitary. That depends. British training is as good, if not better. (Google the "Perisher Course" for example), with regular exchanges between UK and USA troops. However the USA holds a distinct advantage in terms of size and funding, resulting in a force that is more capable overall.

Economically. The USA holds a slight advantage in GDP per capita, however living standards are broadly similar with the UK subsidizing national healthcare and the welfare state with higher taxes, as opposed to the lighter tax burden of USA residents. I have lived in both countries and both systems have their merits. As to which is better? I personally prefer the American system.
 
War of 1812 was a draw? the British burned the white house down...

So? After the U.S. torched government buildings in Canada. The White House was military insignificant and still is.
 
It was Symbolic.

Much like our Doolittle raid in WWII, it boosted moral.

No, nothing symbolic about the raid. It showed the Japanese that we could reach their shores. That was the intent. Just under three years later we fire bombed them. The same thing in Europe; it wasn't to boost moral.
 
No, nothing symbolic about the raid. It showed the Japanese that we could reach their shores. That was the intent. Just under three years later we fire bombed them. The same thing in Europe; it wasn't to boost moral.

Yes it was symbolic. It was a ray of hope at a time where American Naval Forces were getting their ass kicked regularly.
 
No, nothing symbolic about the raid. It showed the Japanese that we could reach their shores. That was the intent. Just under three years later we fire bombed them. The same thing in Europe; it wasn't to boost moral.

It was symbolic.
 
It was symbolic.

Yes it was symbolic. It was a ray of hope at a time where American Naval Forces were getting their ass kicked regularly.


It's "symbolism" if you want to call it that, had its desired effect of humiliating Japan and springing the battle of Midway. So the raid certainly did its job.
 
No, nothing symbolic about the raid. It showed the Japanese that we could reach their shores.

Like the "shelling of California" by Japanese submarines or the invasion of Alaska, these were largely symbolic.

Symbolic is either taking a target of little actual merit for the sake of taking it, or conducting a one-shot attack that can not really be repeated.

The Doolittle Raid was a huge use of resources to little actual effect. 18 B-25 bombers, 2 aircraft carriers, and 80 airmen. And their payloads were only 3 500 pound bombs and a single incindiary bomb. The total payload dropped onto Japan was only 16 tons.

Of those aircraft, 15 were destroyed (crashed), and 1 survived (taken captive by the Soviets). Of the crew, 3 were killed and 8 taken prisoner (1 died of disease in captivity, 3 were executed). It was an attack that could not be repeated. Because of this the Japanese increased air defenses as well as naval patrols out to a range that would have made the attack impossible. And the US shortly afterwards did not have the carrier resources to repeat it either.

Doolittle himself was sure that upon his return to the US, he would be court martialed for it's failure. The loss of all his bombers and 11 crew for insignificant damage caused him to believe the mission was a complete failure.

Yes, we did indeed start conducting bombing attacks of a much more meaningful nature on Japan 3 years later. After we had taken over most of their islands and largely destroyed their navy.

The bombing missions in Europe were not symbolic, the distances there were much shorter and they were not "one way missions" as the Doolittle Raid was. Everybody who took off on that raid knew there was little chance of their aircraft making safe landings afterwards.
 
The war of 1812 certainly qualifies as a loss, perhaps not a total one, but without a doubt a failure in achieving American goals and objectives.

Vietnam was certainly a defeat, given that American strategic goals were the containment of communism and the preservation of South Vietnam, both of which were not achieved. Furthermore, to distinguish between winning by political means or military means when discussing American involvement in Vietnam is stupid. Militaries are made up of the citizens, sons, brothers, husbands, and fathers of the nation fighting. A democracy in particular can not maintain an unpopular war, regardless of how superior the military is. The US lost the will to keep fighting, in part due to public perception, but also the simple reality that the US wasn't winning the war. The North Vietnamese were a difficult opponent, given their capability to not only engage in guerilla war, but also conduct conventional operations, preventing the implementation of a coherent strategy to achieve victory in Vietnam. There were a variety of factors that led to a generally poor performance by the US military in Vietnam, and at the end of the day, South Vietnam fell. You can say the US had already withdrawn and it wasn't our fight anymore, but that is because we abandoned South Vietnam.

But instead of beating ourselves up over it or arguing back and forth, the far smarter thing to do would be to realize what went wrong in Vietnam and work to ensure the same shortcomings do not hinder our military operations in future conflicts.
 
To me, one of the biggest diplomatic fubars was the appeasement of NAZI Germany prior to the invasion of Poland. The Diplomats gave der Paper Hanger almost everything he wanted, but it did no good in stopping the war, only holding it back a bit. And it is now known that Hitler was prepared to pull back if any resistance was met.


Complaining about the appeasement of Hitler is stupid without knowing the context of the situation.

For starters, no one knew who Hitler was. Up until he took over the rest of Czechoslovakia he was a wild card and no one really understand what he wanted or what he was going to do. It's really easy to criticize nowadays, but the fact is that Britain and France had no idea what Hitler was planning.

Furthermore appeasement was never meant to prevent the war, but delay it. Britain and France before 1939 were utterly unprepared for war. France's doctrine was entirely defensive and had no real plans on how to threaten Germany if it invaded Czechoslovakia. Britain's army was not mechanized, it's radar network that would save it during the Battle of Britain was not operational, and both countries were still struggling out of the Great Depression. While 1938 Germany was not as powerful as 1940 Germany, it was still mobilized and prepared for conflict better than either Britain and France.

Chamberlain was an elected politician. He reflected the view of his nation's citizens, the vast majority of which did not want war. Neither did the French, who had suffered horrendous casualties in the first World War. The fact is that neither Britain nor France could stop Hitler from taking Czechoslovakia, so they did they best they could at the time with limited resources.

And it also needs to be remember that is was Chamberlain who ordered the build up of the British Armed Forces, cut off further ties to Hitler after he seized the rest of Czechoslovakia, and was the one who declared war on Hitler when the Nazis invaded Poland. There's a reason Churchill mourned his death.
 
Complaining about the appeasement of Hitler is stupid without knowing the context of the situation.

For starters, no one knew who Hitler was. Up until he took over the rest of Czechoslovakia he was a wild card and no one really understand what he wanted or what he was going to do. It's really easy to criticize nowadays, but the fact is that Britain and France had no idea what Hitler was planning.

Sorry, but that is complete coprolite. Hitler had never hidden his intentions, and had been talking about them for well over a decade.

You seem to forget that Der Paper Hanger was also the author of a best selling book.

Until our country has not managed to provide itself with enough land, you cannot see our position as faultless. Never forget, that most holiest rights are rights for plenty of land that we can cultivate ourselves. Never forget that most holiest blood are those that are wasted in the fight for the land.

Of course, he is talking about Lebensraum.

We want to halt pointless German crushing in south and west of Europe and we point our finger to the territory that lies in the west. We completely break our past colonial and trade policy and deliberately turn to acquiring new lands in Europe. We can only consider Russia and its neighboring countries.

That is pretty plain and simple, back in 1924. Yet you claim that "nobody knew who he was"? This is even more clear:

As long as the eternal conflict between France and Germany is waged only in the form of a German defence against the French attack, that conflict can never be decided; and from century to century Germany will lose one position after another. If we study the changes that have taken place, from the twelfth century up to our day, in the frontiers within which the German language is spoken, we can hardly hope for a successful issue to result from the acceptance and development of a line of conduct which has hitherto been so detrimental for us. Only when the Germans have taken all this fully into account will they cease from allowing the national will-to-life to wear itself out in merely passive defence, but they will rally together for a last decisive contest with France. And in this contest the essential objective of the German nation will be fought for. Only then will it be possible to put an end to the eternal Franco-German conflict which has hitherto proved so sterile. Of course it is here presumed that Germany sees in the suppression of France nothing more than a means which will make it possible for our people finally to expand in another quarter.

And his many speeches were full of such things. Oh, he was very well known even in that era. You are aware are you not, that he was awarded Time's Man Of the Year in 1938, are you not?

Führer of the German people, Commander-in-Chief of the German Army, Navy & Air Force, Chancellor of the Third Reich, Herr Hitler reaped on that day at Munich the harvest of an audacious, defiant, ruthless foreign policy he had pursued for five and a half years. He had torn the Treaty of Versailles to shreds. He had rearmed Germany to the teeth— or as close to the teeth as he was able. He had stolen Austria before the eyes of a horrified and apparently impotent world.
Adolf Hitler: Man of the Year, 1938 - TIME

No, it was well known what he wanted, the appeasement individuals simply hoped that he could be bought off.

Tell you what, go and read Mein Kampf. It will give you an amazing insight into his thoughts and intentions. How anybody can even try to claim that they were not known even back in 1938, it shows that they know nothing of the man, the era, or the others involved.
 
Sorry, but that is complete coprolite. Hitler had never hidden his intentions, and had been talking about them for well over a decade.

You seem to forget that Der Paper Hanger was also the author of a best selling book.

In Germany, and that's ignoring that most Germans didn't read it cover to cover. It sold just 20,400 copies in Great Britain. Furthermore, a lot of the early translations left out a lot of the anti-Semitic comments.


That is pretty plain and simple, back in 1924. Yet you claim that "nobody knew who he was"? This is even more clear:

Right, 1924, written 13 years before the Munich Crisis unfolded.

Not to mention Hitler's justification for the situation in Sudetenland wasn't Lebensraum, It was about ethnic Germans being able to rejoin with Germany; a believable cause given the ethno-nationalist sentiments commonly found in post WWI Eastern European countries.

With anyone except Hitler, appeasement would've worked, you know. And yes, Hitler was largely an unknown, since Mein Kampf could be quite easily dismissed as prison ranting. Sure, there were internal purges (and purging the SA actually won Hitler points, as it was perceived as a move away from extremist stances) and antisemitism, but most of Europe had the problem, not just Germany. Hitler wasn't a rational actor, but he didn't come off as a warmonger or even irrational in fact he was very, very good at projecting the image he wanted, at least until all the drugs started eating away at what little sanity was left. He guaranteed the borders and the neutrality of Belgium, signed a non-aggression pact with Poland, which is something that Wiemar parties shied away from, up to and including waging a trade war with Poland. Sure, he had no intention to abide by those promises, but that's hindsight speaking. What you saw at the time was a nationalist, which a lot of people were at the time, especially in central and eastern Europe, who had set about restoring Germany to a position of power and was pursuing relatively peaceful means of doing it.

Need I point out that public opinion about the Anschluss and the Sudetenland in Britain was largely in favor of Germany? After all, those territories were settled with Germans, only natural that Germany get them. The British public was largely in favor of easing the Versailles restrictions, as they were perceived as unjust. It was only after the annexation of Czechoslovakia that Hitler's true face was revealed, which led Chamberlain to lead the push for rearmament and guaranteed Poland, then declared war on Germany when it actually attacked.

No, it was well known what he wanted, the appeasement individuals simply hoped that he could be bought off.

Just because you write a book doesn't mean people will read it.

Tell you what, go and read Mein Kampf. It will give you an amazing insight into his thoughts and intentions. How anybody can even try to claim that they were not known even back in 1938, it shows that they know nothing of the man, the era, or the others involved.

I have. And if you have as well, then surely you know the main point of Mein Kampf wasn't Hitler ranting, he was trying to sell his political philosophy to drum up support for national socialism.

You're also missing my point entirely. Even if the British and French governments had all read Mein Kampf, taken it to heart as Hitler's pure intentions, there still have no chance of success in fighting Hitler in 1938, not unless the Soviet Union decided to join in alongside, which was very questionable given the poor relations between Stalin and the West. Czechoslovakia was doomed; it's doctrine relied on French intervention, which was never going to happen. The Czechs were also facing disputes from the Hungarians, Romanians, and Poles. Even if their defenses had held against the Germans (Which they wouldn't have, but that's besides the point), they would've likely been facing incursions from multiple other directions. Not to mention significant portions of the Czech army relied on conscripts from ethnic minorities, whose loyalty was questionable at best.

Finally, Chamberlain was the Prime Minister of the British Empire. His first and foremost priority was the preservation of the Empire. Chamberlain's actions showed a fundamental misinterpretation of Hitler, but a sound understanding of the nature (and weakness) of British power. Churchill was the inverse - a sound understanding of Hitler's nature, but a complete misunderstanding of what the war was likely to cost the British. Britian and France could not fight Germany in 1938 and guarantee a win. The British army was obsolete and the French did not have any significant offensive capability.
 
Sorry, but that is complete coprolite. Hitler had never hidden his intentions, and had been talking about them for well over a decade.

You seem to forget that Der Paper Hanger was also the author of a best selling book.



Of course, he is talking about Lebensraum.



That is pretty plain and simple, back in 1924. Yet you claim that "nobody knew who he was"? This is even more clear:



And his many speeches were full of such things. Oh, he was very well known even in that era. You are aware are you not, that he was awarded Time's Man Of the Year in 1938, are you not?


Adolf Hitler: Man of the Year, 1938 - TIME

No, it was well known what he wanted, the appeasement individuals simply hoped that he could be bought off.

Tell you what, go and read Mein Kampf. It will give you an amazing insight into his thoughts and intentions. How anybody can even try to claim that they were not known even back in 1938, it shows that they know nothing of the man, the era, or the others involved.


Hey y'all. I'm new.

While it's true that Hitler wrote down a lot of what he wanted to do---but people didn't think he was actually going to do it. After all, talk is cheap, but actually being able to follow through is much harder. The English and French Armies also weren't physiologically ready for war beforehand. A leader like Churchill could have tried to end appeasement, if he had been elected earlier, but that's unlikely, in particular because of the beating his reputation had taken over Gallipoli. Not to mention even if Churchill had been elected, it's unlikely anything worse than a handleful of air raids would have taken place.

As for the initial question, I'd say Vietnam was probably only war we've outright lost.
 
Let's have a discussion about which wars we should consider the US to have lost.
We are going to simply exclude the Civil War from the debate since it's not worth getting into the semantics. Also exclude silly "the war on xxx" things like the war on terror.


In my opinion, it is completely obvious that the US lost the Vietnam War. That one goes without question.

Korea ended in more of a stalemate so I don't think that should be considered a loss, rather a draw if anything.

The less obvious ones are Iraq and Afghanistan. We definitely succeeded in the initial goal of defeating Saddam in Iraq, but the attempt to replace the regime with a stable democracy was obviously a failure. So I am undecided on my verdict for Iraq right now. In the case of Afghanistan, we might just have to say that the war is still ongoing. At this point, though, I think it's extremely unlikely the US will win.

So my tally is:
1 loss (Vietnam)
2 draw (Korea, War of 1812)
1 ongoing (Afghanistan)
1 currently undecided (Iraq)

Everything else was a win.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Don't conflate war with police operations, as has been stated. Iraq was a really quick and decisive win with very little casualties. Then we moved into a police action and that is an entirely different animal.
 
Right, 1924, written 13 years before the Munich Crisis unfolded.

And in nothing he said or wrote, from then until the start of WWII was any different. He was always a clear expansionist, and said that he was going to reclaim the proper German Territory and make a homeland for all proper Aryans. And get rid of all Jews, Slavs, and other subhuman races.

The very fact that he wrote that 13 years earlier, and that had not changed his tone or statements in any way shows that he was indeed well understood in that era.

And remember, PM Chamberlin had highly skilled advisors who would read such books and advise their primary all about who he would be facing. Such as any other leader past or present would have done.

Do you think that before Khrushchev met President Kennedy, he was not advised by somebody about the writings and beliefs of who he would be meeting? President Kennedy, who had written Profiles in Courage, and nobody who advised his Premier would have bothered to inform him of his beliefs? Or later Premiers (or even Chairman Mao) would have met President Nixon without taking into consideration his writings in Six Crisis (which covered such things as Alger Hiss and the Kitchen Debates)?

Sorry, if you are trying to make a point here, you are missing. Claiming that nobody read his writings or listened to his speeches is pure nonsense. National leaders in the 1930's were as well informed of their political equals in other nations just as we are today.

And do not forget, that Germany was also a member of and very active in the League of Nations. That is until Der Paper Hanger took power in 1933 and pulled his country out of the League of Nations, believing that trying diplomacy to resolve territorial disputes was pointless.
 
And in nothing he said or wrote, from then until the start of WWII was any different. He was always a clear expansionist, and said that he was going to reclaim the proper German Territory and make a homeland for all proper Aryans. And get rid of all Jews, Slavs, and other subhuman races.

The very fact that he wrote that 13 years earlier, and that had not changed his tone or statements in any way shows that he was indeed well understood in that era.

And remember, PM Chamberlin had highly skilled advisors who would read such books and advise their primary all about who he would be facing. Such as any other leader past or present would have done.


I find it funny that you say he had highly skilled advisers who would've known this and be prepared, but started this debate out talking about how the effort was fubar and they sucked. So ignoring the fact that you failed to respond to any of the other points I made, I'll set the bar low.


What evidence do you have to suggest that Chamerlain's advisers read and understood Mein Kampf? The early versions printed in English were not direct translations, so they didn't include everything Hitler had actually said in the original. And as I've said before, his book was not well received in Britain. Do you have evidence to prove Chamberlain's cabinet and advisors actually read and studied the book enough to predict Hitler?

Hey y'all. I'm new.

While it's true that Hitler wrote down a lot of what he wanted to do---but people didn't think he was actually going to do it. After all, talk is cheap, but actually being able to follow through is much harder. The English and French Armies also weren't physiologically ready for war beforehand.

Tigerace117 also makes a good point. Talk is cheap and Hitler was a politician. Even if someone did read Mein Kampf, it would've been easy to just assume he was trying to stir up German nationalism to get into power. That would match up with what his speeches often talked about; Hitler was a great orator and rose through the ranks of the German Government largely because of his ability to appeal to the German people anger and nationalism.

Now, care to address any of the other points I made explaining why the Munich Agreement unfolded as it did?
 
I don't feel like we've lost any, we just decided to leave (except maybe War of 1812). We could've stayed. We could've utterly destroyed Vietnam if we really wanted to.

Politically speaking, Vietnam was at least a partial failure, but I don't think it was a complete failure. Communist countries knew we were prepared to fight long term even if not attacked on our own soil, and that had to be discouraging for them.

The War in Vietnam was unnecessary, unjust, and tragically futile. We devastated Vietnam for no good reason. That war left emotional scars on us that have still not healed. Those scars contribute to the contemporary polarization of American politics.
 
Reading the actual Time article....they have one ****ed up definition of "man of the year":

"More significant was the fact Hitler became in 1938 the greatest threatening force that the democratic, freedom-loving world faces today."

"Germany's 700,000 Jews have been tortured physically, robbed of homes and properties, denied a chance to earn a living, chased off the streets. "

i can't imagine why anyone to do this day would want to win this 'award' that they still give out
 
The War in Vietnam was unnecessary, unjust, and tragically futile. We devastated Vietnam for no good reason. That war left emotional scars on us that have still not healed. Those scars contribute to the contemporary polarization of American politics.

So Communism wasn't a threat and fizzling out when we decided to fight in Vietnam?
 
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