Which wars has the United States lost?

[Jredbaron96]

I am a veteran of that time and I disagree with you vehemently. I stay with my original comment.

You 'vehemently disagree' that defeats and failures are the best teachers? You 'vehemently disagree' that the US Armed Forces failed on several levels? You 'vehemently disagree' that the North Vietnamese were a very capable and dangerous opponent? You 'vehemently disagree' that democracies cannot fight unpopular wars?

Give me a ****ing break.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Sure lol.

I'll pick you up at seven.

Technically at Dien Bien Phu the Viet Minh were victorious---the French garrison surrendered. The point still applies though.

It was a phyrric victory on all counts on the tactical level. The losses the Vietnamese sustained were enormous and a good example of how Giap was a good strategist, he was a lackluster tactician.

The Soviets were so sucessful because they had such a huge pool of men, artillery, aircraft and tanks that they could take losses on a scale which would cripple another other force and just keep coming.

That's part of the reason, but the operational art and deep battle are both fundamentally sound doctrines as well.

Plus by 1975 the VC had seven years to rebuild and Congress didn't give a **** about obligations---they only wanted out.

And were still outnumbered by the ARVN. Had the US pulled out right after the end of Tet, South Vietnam would've fallen even sooner. The South never had the military capability to fight on it's own.

 

[fmw]

You 'vehemently disagree' that defeats and failures are the best teachers? You 'vehemently disagree' that the US Armed Forces failed on several levels? You 'vehemently disagree' that the North Vietnamese were a very capable and dangerous opponent? You 'vehemently disagree' that democracies cannot fight unpopular wars?

Give me a ****ing break.

No, I disagree vehemently that politics was not the major cause of our loss in Vietnam. It was a nearly universal opinion of the troops at the time. Those other things are what you said, not what I said.

 

[Jredbaron96]

No, I disagree vehemently that politics was not the major cause of our loss in Vietnam. It was a nearly universal opinion of the troops at the time. Those other things are what you said, not what I said.

You can't separate politics from the military. The Armed Forces answer to the Government, who answers to the people. That's how the US works and that's how democracies function. If we want to fight wars effectively we need to know how to manage that.

We lost in Vietnam because the American people lost the will to fight, which they did due to the failure of the Armed Forces in achieving decisive, moral raising victories. That was a result of both a failure on the part of the Armed Forces and the US Government, not one alone.

 

[fmw]

You can't separate politics from the military. The Armed Forces answer to the Government, who answers to the people. That's how the US works and that's how democracies function. If we want to fight wars effectively we need to know how to manage that.

We lost in Vietnam because the American people lost the will to fight, which they did due to the failure of the Armed Forces in achieving decisive, moral raising victories. That was a result of both a failure on the part of the Armed Forces and the US Government, not one alone.

As I said, we disagree. The government hasn't answered to the people in my experience. It has always answered to itself.

 

[Jredbaron96]

As I said, we disagree. The government hasn't answered to the people in my experience. It has always answered to itself.

I can see where this is going.

 

[fmw]

I can see where this is going.

It is not going anywhere. I'm bored with this thread.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Right, but battles are not the sole determinant of victory in war.

But remember, the war actually ended in 1973, and was a North Vietnamese loss. At the end of that war, the North officially recognized the right of South Vietnam to exist, disbanded the VC, and agreed to never invade again.

The Second Vietnam War, which started 2 years later, was a different conflict.

The First one, the South Vietnamese and US won. The second the North Vietnamese won.

 

[Jredbaron96]

But remember, the war actually ended in 1973, and was a North Vietnamese loss.

At the end of that war, the North officially recognized the right of South Vietnam to exist, disbanded the VC, and agreed to never invade again.

The Second Vietnam War, which started 2 years later, was a different conflict.

The First one, the South Vietnamese and US won. The second the North Vietnamese won.

You're splitting hairs for the sake of argument and it's pretty transparent.