Welfare, the ACA, higher minimum wage all come with a cost.

[Wiseone]

I see no evidence that this is so.

Why is it that those on the wrong think that an honest working-class citizen, just trying to earn an honest living, complaining about how difficult it makes it for him to support himself and his family because of the high taxes he has to pay to support unproductive parasites via welfare on top of his own legitimate responsibilities, is guilty of “hoarding wealth”?

Maybe you should stop paying your tithe, thats 10% of your income saved right there.

Also Jesus wants you to support those parasites.

 

[274ina]

Every such economic manipulation on the part of government has winners and losers—those who are better off because of that act, and those who are worse.

To those on the wrong, those who wind up on the losing side of any such government interference are “greedy” for objecting to the cost imposed on them, to someone else's benefit. They like to paint it as the undeserving wealthy having to pay “their fair share” so that the poor can benefit. As one prominent wrongist put it on this forum…

​

The reality, of course, is that it isn't wealthy people having to settle for a lesser luxury car. It's the person who wants to work, and cannot find a job, who is “greedy” because he objects to the conditions that left him jobless and unable to support himself and his family, so that a McBurgerFlipper who still lives with his parents can make more than his limited skills are worth.

Ultimately, it's people who are inclined to be depending on government for their support, who benefit, at the expense of those who are more inclined to want to carry their own weight.

The wrong's concern for the poor is exactly as sincere as that which Judas expressed.

th rich dont want a job for the unemployed either, and when he does find a job, it will be a low min wage job too. Becuase thats all thye have to pay.

and speaking of "dependant" on GOVERMENT support.........................

Tracking the $700 Billion Bailout - The New York Times

No homes saved, but fantasy pieces of paper saved........(like CDO and CDS)

 

[Master PO]

If you were true to your beliefs you wouldn't object so strongly to your tax dollars going to the needy if you were going to give those same dollars to the needy anyway, sure its slightly different, you lose some say in the matter, but its not entirely different from what you claim you were going to do anyway. Personally I think if you weren't required to pay taxes to support the needy you wouldn't give a single cent. Also it says in the Bible to pay your workers decent wages and not to hoard wealth, so again ya you can take a principled stance against minimum wage but if you really "believed" it would be something you'd be doing anyway of your own free will so it would hardly matter in the end.

Tell me why are you so keen on the government teaching and encouraging Biblical stories and information like teaching Noah's flood to be an actual event but you aren't in favor of the same government enforcing the parts about charity, decent wages, and avoiding hoarding wealth?

if people followed the bible exactly, there would be no sin, however their is always sin, and it is for man to work to overcome that sin.

when people have liberty, they are not going to act in a fashion other people desire, however as long as they are not violating rights of another or endangering the health and saftey of the public, no citizen or government has authority to make a citizen to conform to a way of life government or another citizens wants them to.

what leads you to believe i want government involved in religion?

government is not a moral authority, it has no business teaching people what is right or wrong in your personal life,....... government is here to secure rights ......not to be a teacher of morally

government is made up of people, do people when they are elected some how become morally superior to the public when they obtain an office of power?

as i stated, just because some people hoard, are greedy, self-centered, where ever their moral compass is, it not for you to apply force to them to make them stop doing it.....because you just dont like........this is not a democracy were the public get to determine what rights a citizen has to exercise.

 

[Wiseone]

if people followed the bible exactly, there would be no sin, however their is always sin, and it is for man to work to overcome that sin.

when people have liberty, they are not going to act in a fashion other people desire, however as long as they are not violating rights of another or endangering the health and saftey of the public, no citizen or government has authority to make a citizen to conform to a way of life government or another citizens wants them to.

what leads you to believe i want government involved in religion?

government is not a moral authority, it has no business teaching people what is right or wrong in your personal life,....... government is here to secure rights ......not to be a teacher of morally

government is made up of people, do people when they are elected some how become morally superior to the public when they obtain an office of power?

as i stated, just because some people hoard, are greedy, self-centered, where ever their moral compass is, it not for you to apply force to them to make them stop doing it.....because you just dont like........this is not a democracy were the public get to determine what rights a citizen has to exercise.

The form of government you're describing never existed dude

 

[Master PO]

The form of government you're describing never existed dude

government is instituted to secure rights......that's its objective.

it is not here to force people to do things, or behave in a certain fashion.

 

[jaeger19]

Its not about contributing, mak. You epitomize the arrogance to which this thread was created to expose.

What right have you to lay claim to another persons property to give to another person?

Great question.. I have that right as a member of society.. Just as I have that right to claim property so that we have roads, and schools and protection from fire, and theft, and protection from invasion and court systems which can I can get justice and myriad of other things that are a necessary function of government to have a prosperous society.

Yes.. it should be efficient, yes, it should be judicisious in spending and limited in taxing but the right to tax and the need to tax is a necessary function for society.

What right do you have to be a free loader and get the advantages of the society that the rest of us create without helping to pay for it?

 

[mike2810]

Great question.. I have that right as a member of society.. Just as I have that right to claim property so that we have roads, and schools and protection from fire, and theft, and protection from invasion and court systems which can I can get justice and myriad of other things that are a necessary function of government to have a prosperous society.

Yes.. it should be efficient, yes, it should be judicisious in spending and limited in taxing but the right to tax and the need to tax is a necessary function for society.

What right do you have to be a free loader and get the advantages of the society that the rest of us create without helping to pay for it?

quote bold by me

So how are the approximate 40-50% who pay no federal income tax helping to pay for it?
Yes, they still pay local sales tax, ect. like the rest of us. But seems they are reaping more by not paying federal taxes than those that do.

 

[jaeger19]

I see no evidence that this is so.

Why is it that those on the wrong think that an honest working-class citizen, just trying to earn an honest living, complaining about how difficult it makes it for him to support himself and his family because of the high taxes he has to pay to support unproductive parasites via welfare on top of his own legitimate responsibilities, is guilty of “hoarding wealth”?

Love the disconnect... 47% of americans don't pay federal income taxes... that encompasses a bunch of honest working class citizens...

Tell me MR Working class citizen.. just how much money do you make that you are getting hit with high taxes... we have a progressive system of taxation you know. Working class citizens don't pay much if anything in taxes compared to the wealthy.

 

[Renae]

Great question.. I have that right as a member of society.. Just as I have that right to claim property so that we have roads, and schools and protection from fire, and theft, and protection from invasion and court systems which can I can get justice and myriad of other things that are a necessary function of government to have a prosperous society.

Yes.. it should be efficient, yes, it should be judicisious in spending and limited in taxing but the right to tax and the need to tax is a necessary function for society.

What right do you have to be a free loader and get the advantages of the society that the rest of us create without helping to pay for it?

Oh shut it. Really, you are SO PATENTLY dishonest. Wealth transfer from an individual to an individual is not the same as paying for the necessary cost of society. Get back to me when you can equate the military, roads, law enforcement with giving money taken from one person to another. Because no one is talking about not paying taxes, we're talking about blatant theft. Wealth taken from one group, given to another.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

[jaeger19]

quote bold by me

So how are the approximate 40-50% who pay no federal income tax helping to pay for it?
Yes, they still pay local sales tax, ect. like the rest of us. But seems they are reaping more by not paying federal taxes than those that do.

A great question... because throughout their lifetime statistically this group is a net income TAX payer. You have to realize and most do not that this encompasses.. college students who after graduation and getting a job.. will pay income taxes for the next 45 years. It encompasses elderly folks that have paid income taxes for the last 45 years and now don't make enough to pay taxes. It encompasses folks that were laid off in the recession and will be back to work or are back to work now paying income taxes.

 

[jaeger19]

Oh shut it. Really, you are SO PATENTLY dishonest. Wealth transfer from an individual to an individual is not the same as paying for the necessary cost of society. Get back to me when you can equate the military, roads, law enforcement with giving money taken from one person to another. Because no one is talking about not paying taxes, we're talking about blatant theft. Wealth taken from one group, given to another.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

No...its you that are blatantly and so patently dishonest...

Giving a hungry kid in school a sandwich is NOT an individual wealth transfer.. its not theft... especially since if YOUR kids or you suddenly need that safety net.. its available to you just as much as its available to another other citizen that fits that need.
Giving a disabled veteran.. who has had his legs BLOWN OFF fighting for his country, Medicaid for he and his minor children, or a benefit card for food.. is NOT THEFT.

Giving an elderly person who has paid taxes most of their life.. some extra heating bill assistance is NOT THEFT.

Every American who is in need and meets the criteria is eligible for that safety net.. if they need it. THATS NOT THEFT..

Any more than having a road available for a person to use whether he ever drives in that part of the country or not is not theft.

There is no big difference... every American even if they are not using the safety net at any one particular time benefits from that safety net. Even if they never end up on it.. because it creates a more stable society and stable economy and that benefits us all.

 

[Renae]

No...its you that are blatantly and so patently dishonest...

Giving a hungry kid in school a sandwich is NOT an individual wealth transfer.. its not theft... especially since if YOUR kids or you suddenly need that safety net.. its available to you just as much as its available to another other citizen that fits that need.
Giving a disabled veteran.. who has had his legs BLOWN OFF fighting for his country, Medicaid for he and his minor children, or a benefit card for food.. is NOT THEFT.

Giving an elderly person who has paid taxes most of their life.. some extra heating bill assistance is NOT THEFT.

Every American who is in need and meets the criteria is eligible for that safety net.. if they need it. THATS NOT THEFT..

Any more than having a road available for a person to use whether he ever drives in that part of the country or not is not theft.

There is no big difference... every American even if they are not using the safety net at any one particular time benefits from that safety net. Even if they never end up on it.. because it creates a more stable society and stable economy and that benefits us all.

Aww, arent you cute playing the heart string card? I got one respone to your arrogance $17,000, 000,000,000.00 and growing.

 

[jaeger19]

Aww, arent you cute playing the heart string card? I got one respone to your arrogance $17,000, 000,000,000.00 and growing.

No.. the irony here is that you are the one playing to the heart strings...

I just pointed out the facts...

You are the one that's trying to portray folks like the above as THIEVES.. as takers..

You are the one trying to make an emotional appeal on how its theft"... when a bridge to nowhere, or a 20,000 dollar toilet seat, or whatever is somehow "different"..

I have a response your ignorance.. that number doesn't stem from giving a hungry kid a sandwich. You're a fool if you think it does.

 

[Renae]

No.. the irony here is that you are the one playing to the heart strings...

I just pointed out the facts...

You are the one that's trying to portray folks like the above as THIEVES.. as takers..

You are the one trying to make an emotional appeal on how its theft"... when a bridge to nowhere, or a 20,000 dollar toilet seat, or whatever is somehow "different"..

I have a response your ignorance.. that number doesn't stem from giving a hungry kid a sandwich. You're a fool if you think it does.

Principles. Its always good intentions that start these wealth transfers... till you run out of weath to transfer.

 

[Moon]

I always find it amusing to listen to the RWers talk about this. It seems they want a civilization to do buisness in, but dont want to contribute to that society.

Right because everyone knows when you complain about taxes or spending being too high, you're obviously against all spending and taxes.

Are there really only the two choices?

 

[Moon]

Taxes are a necessary function of government which cannot exist without them, and I don't believe your claim either I'd love to see your W-2 as well

You stated earlier that you don't mind paying more in taxes, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind posting your tax return showing that you pay more than you legally owe.

 

[jaeger19]

Principles. Its always good intentions that start these wealth transfers... till you run out of weath to transfer.

It has nothing to do with principles.. that's your emotional plea.. that somehow its THEFT and its principle..

Its simply a well established fact that a society with a safety net is a more stable society with a more stable and better economy.

Name a politically and socially stable country, with a good economy that doesn't have some type of social safety net.

 

[jaeger19]

Right because everyone knows when you complain about taxes or spending being too high, you're obviously against all spending and taxes.

Are there really only the two choices?

Well , you have to admit that the RW's that he is talking about consider taxes to be THEFT..

its hard to claim that you aren't against taxes.. when you call them THEFT...

 

[Moon]

Well , you have to admit that the RW's that he is talking about consider taxes to be THEFT..

its hard to claim that you aren't against taxes.. when you call them THEFT...

Taxation beyond a certain level could certainly be considered theft. I think we're just discussing where that level is, but it is dishonest to make an inference that wanting to reduce taxes and spending means you're against all taxes and spending.

 

[Fenton]

Why can't people just provide all this "help"
for the poor voluntarily? Why do we have to mandate it by law?

To quote P.J O'Rourke:

"There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as 'caring' and 'sensitive' because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't? And a voter who takes pride in supporting such programs is telling us that he'll do good with his own money--if a gun is held to his head."

T.J.O'rourke cracks me up.

He was the first person to correctly identify the fastest car in the World.

It was the Rent-a-Car.

 

[Renae]

It has nothing to do with principles.. that's your emotional plea.. that somehow its THEFT and its principle..

Its simply a well established fact that a society with a safety net is a more stable society with a more stable and better economy.

Name a politically and socially stable country, with a good economy that doesn't have some type of social safety net.

Show where im against a safety net?
That your first fail. Falsely attacking a position... I don't hold.
When you recover from said fail then talk to me.

 

[jaeger19]

Taxation beyond a certain level could certainly be considered theft. I think we're just discussing where that level is, but it is dishonest to make an inference that wanting to reduce taxes and spending means you're against all taxes and spending.

Except that's NOT whats being said here..there has been no mention of "certain levels".. its simply taxes are theft..

And it would be hard to consider the taxes we pay now to be theft.. since we are at some of the lowest levels ever.. especially over the last decade.

Its a little dishonest to imply that when someone says taxes are theft.. that there is some inference that "only at a certain level"...

 

[jaeger19]

Show where im against a safety net?
That your first fail. Falsely attacking a position... I don't hold.
When you recover from said fail then talk to me.

Oh.. so then you know are okay with taking money from one person and giving it to another who needs it?

Or are you going to make the argument that you are fine with a safety net.. as long as you don't have to contribute to it..?

Or are you going back to giving a hungry kid a sandwich is not a safety net its.. redistribution of wealth?

Please

the only fail here is on your part... just look at your crawfishing...

 

[Wiseone]

You stated earlier that you don't mind paying more in taxes, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind posting your tax return showing that you pay more than you legally owe.

I never said that, but it would be true in certain circumstances, and I like Mitt Romney take advantage of tax rebates and the like because I know the problem is not an individual one but rather a flaw in the structure as a whole.

 

[Renae]

No crawfishing. You are just failing to grasp the situation.