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The Pinch - Wake Up, America

celticwar17 said:
I am happy to debate someone who does not believe as I do... and believe me I am the last person to try to evoke an emotional response.

I'm afraid the topic of abortion goes much deeper than abortion itself, and it's not just abortion I can have issues with, it's the mentality that comes with it, it's the lack of responsibility, the dehumanization, the business...... I am not even sure if I am pro-life or pro-choice myself... it's a complicated issue for me...I often debate against those who are pro-choice though because I don't think a lot of times they get adequate responses and a lot of times they tend to be ***holes...
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But you've created your own definition of "lack of responsibility". That too is a moot point. Women don't need a reason for having an abortion. ZERO - NONE - ZIP. But you want them held accountable because you have a disdain for women having control over their own bodies and self-determination.

There is no dehumanizing with the yet to be born - but a hell of a lot of dehumanizing of born women. Women have way more value. They activily interact with family, friends, community, state, and country. They are They can reproduce multiple times. Or not. It's up to women to decide for themselves.
 
Lursa said:
And not everyone does. It's not a fact, it's opinion, your belief. Why should your belief be imposed on women against their will? How is that for an ethical question?
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It's because this "belief" involves whether a fellow human being is being killed or not... that is why this topic is so interesting... most "beliefs" do not have real consequences.... this one does...

Lursa said:
Here it is again:


Everyone has their beliefs. in the US, the "law" is what can be imposed on people...to protect them or punish them. So while you are welcome to hold your beliefs, they must also be supported by law if you want them to be imposed on others.

Ethically, most people in the US do not agree that the unborn have more value than women. And the law supports this belief.

Again, this is why choice is the ethical option: women can make their own individual choices according to their own beliefs....with no force imposed on them.
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Yes, you are going into a completely different argument...which is great... I may be willing to get into that one later...but it is an argument I stated that it existed in the very beginning... all MYargument was showing is that if one does accept that a fetus has value, the rest follows.... My argument was directly against your statement that if the child has rights and the mothers has rights, no one wins...when you made that argument, you made the assumption that the fetus has rights/has a soul/has value... the same as which my argument did. AND YES, your actual beliefs go much further than that, but I was addressing that specific case. My case asserted that if you think a fetus has value/rights the rest followed...
 
This was a total non-answer to the quote below it, which you were responding to. Seems to clearly make my point that you have no interests in the 'ethical' arguments as they apply to women at all. None. You continue to avoid it. You only want to apply *your* ethics to the unborn.

Which isnt surprising because as I wrote, you have no moral High Ground here. Your so-called 'ethical arguments' are completely one-sided.


celticwar17 said:
Why don't we just kill everyone? No more suffering for anyone ever again!!!!!!*The Point* that is not an argument...
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Lursa said:
I do understand arguing philosophy and ethics but for all the times I have addressed how your choice would unethically violate women's rights with the personal justification of, 'they asked for it when they had sex,' you demonstrate zero ability to recognize the impacts your choice would have on women.

And believe me, you have no moral High Ground here. Ethically, the women's suffering and impact on society would be far far greater. The unborn suffer nothing, women would know exactly the disrespect of a society that decided they were once again 2nd class citizens, they would know when their rights were violated. Their jobs, their families, their very lives would all be impacted. The unborn would suffer nothing.
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celticwar17 said:
It's because this "belief" involves whether a fellow human being is being killed or not... that is why this topic is so interesting... most "beliefs" do not have real consequences.... this one does...
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No, this belief^^^ does not involve any human beings besides women, whom you choose to eliminate from your arguments except to blame.

You state that the unborn are human beings as if it is fact. In fact, it is not (pun intended). It is your opinion and no one else is bound to it. Others may share it but you may not ethically impose it on those that do not against their will.
 
celticwar17 said:
Yes, you are going into a completely different argument...which is great... I may be willing to get into that one later...but it is an argument I stated that it existed in the very beginning... all MYargument was showing is that if one does accept that a fetus has value, the rest follows.... My argument was directly against your statement that if the child has rights and the mothers has rights, no one wins...when you made that argument, you made the assumption that the fetus has rights/has a soul/has value... the same as which my argument did. AND YES, your actual beliefs go much further than that, but I was addressing that specific case. My case asserted that if you think a fetus has value/rights the rest followed...
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I never wrote or implied any such thing. I even qualified it with "(proposed)" in front of rights for the unborn. I have clearly stated that the unborn are not equal and are not recognized as having rights. ...by law, in my opinion, and IMO, ethically.

and you are also wrong if you are assuming I'm an atheist. I am a practicing Christian.
 
Lursa said:
I never wrote or implied any such thing. I even qualified it with "(proposed)" in front of rights for the unborn. I have clearly stated that the unborn are not equal and are not recognized as having rights. ...by law, in my opinion, and IMO, ethically.

and you are also wrong if you are assuming I'm an atheist. I am a practicing Christian.
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Ohhhh :)?

So do you believe a fetus has no soul?
 
sangha said:
You seem to be well-intentioned and I appreciate that but you might want to read up a bit on biology because medical science has already figured out what the fetus feels (ie nothing)
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Sorry, wrong post.
 
Removable Mind said:
But you've created your own definition of "lack of responsibility". That too is a moot point. Women don't need a reason for having an abortion. ZERO - NONE - ZIP. But you want them held accountable because you have a disdain for women having control over their own bodies and self-determination.

There is no dehumanizing with the yet to be born - but a hell of a lot of dehumanizing of born women. Women have way more value. They activily interact with family, friends, community, state, and country. They are They can reproduce multiple times. Or not. It's up to women to decide for themselves.
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If you take a look at my argument in post #54... I defined responsibility...

Yes, and this is where you and someone who is pro-life differs... I am not an Athiest, I am a Theist/Deist... I think if just one of these are correct a fetus as the same value as any born human...humans have a soul, humans have purpose, thou shall not kill, etc.... I would think of more, but I think you get the point I hope... As long as you think a human soul doesn't just magically fly into a body and birth, a fetus has just as much value as any human... If you are a Theist.

I could take issue with some of the arguments you said above, because they are faulty.... but I think you were more trying to make a point rather than a good argument... your point is you think a grown woman has more value than a fetus, got it.
 
Lursa said:
No, this belief^^^ does not involve any human beings besides women, whom you choose to eliminate from your arguments except to blame.

You state that the unborn are human beings as if it is fact. In fact, it is not (pun intended). It is your opinion and no one else is bound to it. Others may share it but you may not ethically impose it on those that do not against their will.
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Hmmmm..... so what if it is your opinion that black people are equal, but everyone else thinks they are less than beasts?
Is black people being equal in value, just an opinion? (This is an exercise that tests the logic you are using)

This is not opinion.... there is an absolute truth in this case, Does the fetus have a soul or not... and the consequences are DIRE.... if they do than ALL these baby soul are being murdered too early before they can achieve what they are meant to, due to irresponsible unethical mothers... if not, they are just food for the sewer crocs.
 
celticwar17 said:
If you take a look at my argument in post #54... I defined responsibility...

Yes, and this is where you and someone who is pro-life differs... I am not an Athiest, I am a Theist/Deist... I think if just one of these are correct a fetus as the same value as any born human...humans have a soul, humans have purpose, thou shall not kill, etc.... I would think of more, but I think you get the point I hope... As long as you think a human soul doesn't just magically fly into a body and birth, a fetus has just as much value as any human... If you are a Theist.

I could take issue with some of the arguments you said above, because they are faulty.... but I think you were more trying to make a point rather than a good argument... your point is you think a grown woman has more value than a fetus, got it.
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I could care less what your religious beliefs are.

Make no mistake about it, YES, all born persons are more valuable than the yet to be born. The yet to be born can't be born without them.

Please give us a short legal brief on how the yet to be born can be equal.

You have no proof that humans have souls. Nor a purpose. They are one of many life forms on the planet. So what?
 
celticwar17 said:
Hmmmm..... so what if it is your opinion that black people are equal, but everyone else thinks they are less than beasts?
Is black people being equal in value, just an opinion? (This is an exercise that tests the logic you are using)

This is not opinion.... there is an absolute truth in this case, Does the fetus have a soul or not... and the consequences are DIRE.... if they do than ALL these baby soul are being murdered too early before they can achieve what they are meant to, due to irresponsible unethical mothers... if not, they are just food for the sewer crocs.
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Can you prove a human has a soul? Yes or No?
 
Removable Mind said:
Can you prove a human has a soul? Yes or No?
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I cannot, I would first have to prove spirituality... my argument is not meant for an atheist.

I would have to convince you the fetus has value otherwise, from and humanist stand-point
 
celticwar17 said:
Hmmmm..... so what if it is your opinion that black people are equal, but everyone else thinks they are less than beasts?
Is black people being equal in value, just an opinion? (This is an exercise that tests the logic you are using)

This is not opinion.... there is an absolute truth in this case, Does the fetus have a soul or not... and the consequences are DIRE.... if they do than ALL these baby soul are being murdered too early before they can achieve what they are meant to, due to irresponsible unethical mothers... if not, they are just food for the sewer crocs.
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I did not yet use any logic to support my belief that the unborn are not equal. But here, try this for a Reader's Digest version:

Lursa said:
After birth is when someone's rights can be upheld without violating the rights of someone else (without due process). Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

After birth, society can act on the unborn without imposing on the mother and the unborn can act on society (which it does immediately upon birth, crying, manipulating when hungry, wet, etc)
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And you are 100% wrong that there is an absolute truth here and you are 100% wrong that it can be proven the unborn...or anyone...has a soul.

Edit: I may believe that people have souls but I would never presume to force my beliefs on others with law. *I* am free to practice my religious beliefs here in the US, regarding abortion and otherwise, and I respect others enough to allow them to do the same, or not. This is a pretty ethical perspective IMO.
 
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Lursa said:
.Yes.
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Are you one of those Breath of life Christians?

how convenient... I'm not great at the bible, but I did once debate someone with bible verses on the breath of life stance.... it's interesting.

Since animals have been given the breath of life does that also mean they have a soul? Genesis 7:15
I think It's a contradiction
 
celticwar17 said:
I cannot, I would first have to prove spirituality... my argument is not meant for an atheist.

I would have to convince you the fetus has value otherwise, from and humanist stand-point
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This is an open forum.

You simply don't want a person to inject questions that require logic and reason to be incorporated into the argument. If you want to argue that humans have souls - the Religion Forum might better be suited.
 
Lursa said:
And you are 100% wrong that there is an absolute truth here and you are 100% wrong that it can be proven the unborn...or anyone...has a soul.
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How am I wrong... is it not true that a Fetus either does or does not have a soul???? Just because you may not know, does not mean it's not an absolute truth.
 
Removable Mind said:
This is an open forum.

You simply don't want a person to inject questions that require logic and reason to be incorporated into the argument. If you want to argue that humans have souls - the Religion Forum might better be suited.
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what?
I simply recognize the impasse of the argument... stop tooting your own horn...
 
celticwar17 said:
How am I wrong... is it not true that a Fetus either does or does not have a soul???? Just because you may not know, does not mean it's not an absolute truth.
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And your argument is: "Just because I made it up doesn't mean it's not true". Right?
 
Removable Mind said:
And your argument is: "Just because I made it up doesn't mean it's not true". Right?
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I am speaking to a religious person...this person thinks there are souls... it's a perfectly acceptable argument.
In this arguement Me and Lursa accept the statement... Humans have souls.

Now I am prying her logical basis for why fetus' do not have souls... and the cost is, if she is wrong.... she is supporting mass genocide.... in her ethical realm.
 
celticwar17 said:
Are you one of those Breath of life Christians?

how convenient... I'm not great at the bible, but I did once debate someone with bible verses on the breath of life stance.... it's interesting.

Since animals have been given the breath of life does that also mean they have a soul? Genesis 7:15
I think It's a contradiction
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I believe animals have souls. I dont doubt it when I look into my horse's eyes or my dog's eyes.

I have no interest in your opinions on my relgious beliefs altho I never heard of that sect.

Did your 'ethical argument' just deteriorate into one about your religious beliefs? I hope not. Surely you know that your religious beliefs, and mine, should not be imposed on others that do not believe the same here in the US (or anywhere IMO).
 
celticwar17 said:
I am speaking to a religious person...this person thinks there are souls... it's a perfectly acceptable argument.
In this arguement Me and Lursa accept the statement... Humans have souls.

Now I am prying her logical basis for why fetus' do not have souls... and the cost is, if she is wrong.... she is supporting mass genocide.... in her ethical realm.
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I dont believe that the inclusion of a soul makes any difference in the abortion discussion at all. Souls have nothing to do with the right to life, which is what your 'supposedly ethical discussion' was based on originally.

Even if the unborn had souls, my opinion would not change. They are in God's Hands either way.

And again, I believe it is ethically, morally wrong, to impose religious beliefs on people that do not share them. So again, ensoulment has no place in discussions on abortion.
 
Lursa said:
I dont believe that the inclusion of a soul makes any difference in the abortion discussion at all. Souls have nothing to do with the right to life, which is what your 'supposedly ethical discussion' was based on originally.

Even if the unborn had souls, my opinion would not change. They are in God's Hands either way.

And again, I believe it is ethically, morally wrong, to impose religious beliefs on people that do not share them. So again, ensoulment has no place in discussions on abortion.
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Interesting...
I just don't follow your logic...
what about thou shall not kill?
The unborn fetus wants to live doesn't it? Your body certainly wants it, it's the one creating it.... What makes you think a woman has any more right to kill a fetus than to kill a grown human being? Does it not have a purpose?

I am honestly interested.
 
celticwar17 said:
How am I wrong... is it not true that a Fetus either does or does not have a soul???? Just because you may not know, does not mean it's not an absolute truth.
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absolute truths can be proven :doh

Now you are just wasting my time.
 
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