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The Pinch - Wake Up, America

smeals

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The Pinch: Wake Up, America
The shooting in Colorado at Planned Parenthood has made me want to write something about the way we handle abortion in America. I'm writing this because I feel the need to get this out there to try to help the situation and maybe even persuade someone to not fight or hate someone else who has a different opinion.
First of all, I don’t think there is any woman who really wants to experience an abortion. It is actually not a very pleasant experience. One well known woman who sang about abortion described a “pinch, pull, wincing” (her smile unconvincing) when the fetus was removed from her body. I am sure this is a terrible feeling. Remember this pinch.
There are left wing activists claiming that abortion is just fine and that a fetus is just a part of a woman’s body. When a doctor extinguishes the life of a fetus, many with a conscience may wonder what this may feel like for the tiny, fragile being involved. We don’t really know what another person might be thinking or feeling unless we ask them. We can’t ask them. A woman does not feel the pain that a fetus may experience. Therefore, this is actually not part or extension of a woman’s body. This line of thinking makes something seem okay when it is actually not okay. When a person meets an abortion activist who is preaching this line of thinking to our youth, I encourage you to pinch this person and explain why. Maybe this person will wake up and see the consequences encouraging this practice.
If abortion is outlawed, the government will be seen as an oppressor, and the masses will become angry. In addition, the government would need to expand its forces to enforce the laws outlawing this practice. This would be big government at its worst. It would be our government regulating one of the most personal activities we can experience as humans. This is obviously also not a desirable situation.
When we strive to end abortion because it is the wrong thing to do, we should strive to do it in the right way. Abstinence, of course, is the safest course of action. It is the only way to guarantee complete safety from STDs, the little talked of STIs, and of course, pregnancy. Many religious people will also preach this course of action simply because it is the word of God.
We have another group of people who believe that having sex before marriage is just fine, but that those who do not want children should use birth control. Many young people do not know how to use birth control properly, and this is actually a major contributing factor to this problem. Using more than one form of birth control at a time is a very reliable way to prevent pregnancy. It just takes a small amount of foresight to prevent a large problem, and this can be done fairly easily. This is a message some of our youth really need, and I don’t know if many of them are really aware. These practices would also help end a sometimes violent, seemingly endless debate about abortion that has spanned decades. When a parent talk to their children they need to also discuss the effects that sexuality can have on society. The things they do really do affect the people around them in ways they might not understand as young, inexperienced people unless we tell them.
Once a woman has already had an abortion, it is important not to chastise her too harshly. This is an action that cannot be taken back, no matter how much a woman might wish she could later. This sometimes does happen. We need to send the message that it’s not okay, but at the same time forgive. Forgiveness is key here. What we really need is forgiveness, regardless of the sin or offense committed. Forgiveness is a key tenant of Christianity, and it’s also a great way to promote an atmosphere of peace, civility, and respect for women.
A wise person once said, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” What many anti-abortion activists are really doing is fighting the wrong side of the problem. When we try to punish those who make mistakes or get rid of doctors who are trying to perform these procedures for them safely, we are fighting the wrong side of the problem. There are so many ways to help women keep themselves safe and understand their bodies so that these things don’t happen. Many feminists are already doing this much needed work. If you haven’t heard about it, look at a feminist website on the topic, educate yourself, and get involved.
The shooter in Colorado took the lives of three innocent people. He wreaked havoc not only at a clinic that may or may not even provide abortions, but it also included adjacent places that have nothing to do with this topic whatsoever. People should not have to live fear. That’s not an America anyone really wants to live in. We definitely have a problem on our hands here. Fighting the problem is the answer, not fighting amongst ourselves.
Oh, and don’t really pinch anyone. That really hurts!
 
You seem to be well-intentioned and I appreciate that but you might want to read up a bit on biology because medical science has already figured out what the fetus feels (ie nothing)
 
As long as abortion mills exist there will be tragic incidents like this. If not this generation then the next or the next. It will always be a contested issue and there will always be someone who takes it beyond the pale.

The issue will not be solved by changing the language.

When we try to punish those who make mistakes or get rid of doctors who are trying to perform these procedures for them safely, we are fighting the wrong side of the problem

No one is being punished by not having the ability to kill the unborn. You are on the wrong side of the problem when you characterize these folks as simply "those who have made mistakes". Perhaps a generation of women should learn not to open their legs unless they are willing and in the right place to get pregnant. A generation of men should learn not to horn around until they are ready and willing to be fathers.

For genuine, not my fault situations there have always been exceptions. We don't need abortion mills for that. We don't need the same org that kills unborn teaching our kids to go ahead and have sex (as long as you're protected) - now THAT is a mistake.
 
Could you provide a link to the research?
 
Clownboy - I don't think you took my message in it's totality. The people who are being punished are actually women who are being forced to have children they don't want, children who are unwanted, men who don't want to pay child support, taxpayers who are paying for welfare, and a population who is sick of an abortion debate, violence against its citizens, and a bad attitude toward women that shows in your post. Of course, abstinence is the best and safest way, but there are going to be tons of people who you know aren't going to listen are just going to do it anyway. A lot of time, you ,can pick these young people out and tailor your message to them. I never said we should encourage women to open their legs, or for men to horn around. Is that anywhere in my statement? Whose writing are you reading? I am actually trying to deter people from getting abortions, and get people to not antagonize those who have gotten them at the same time. Also, I don't know if you realize this, but I made several suggestions that were not "changing the language." You can go back and actually read what I wrote and take it in before you respond again if you need to.
 
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Clownboy - I don't think you took my message in it's totality. The people who are being punished are actually women who are being forced to have children they don't want, children who are unwanted, men who don't want to pay child support, taxpayers who are paying for welfare, and a population who is sick of an abortion debate, violence against its citizens, and a bad attitude toward women that shows in your post. Of course, abstinence is the best and safest way, but there are going to be tons of people who you know aren't going to listen are just going to do it anyway. A lot of time, you ,can pick these young people out and tailor your message to them. I never said we should encourage women to open their legs, or for men to horn around. Is that anywhere in my statement? Whose writing are you reading? I am actually trying to deter people from getting abortions, and get people to not antagonize those who have gotten them at the same time. Also, I don't know if you realize this, but I made several suggestions that were not "changing the language." You can go back and actually read what I wrote and take it in before you respond again if you need to.

Yes, I read your longish screed in it's entirety and my comments stand. As long as we allow abortion mills this issue will persist and some will take things too far. And yes, you seem to think characterizing conscious action that everyone in the world knows may cause pregnancy, as "a mistake" - that IS writing the script, changing the language.

That's not a mistake, it's a consequence.
 
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You seem to be well-intentioned and I appreciate that but you might want to read up a bit on biology because medical science has already figured out what the fetus feels (ie nothing)

So If one were to give you evidence to the contrary... would you change your position?



.... didn't think so, you wouldn't care if they experience unbelievable pain.
 
Okay, well I don't think that an abortion facility is something that should be characterized as a "mill." Most of what these places do is actually provide reproductive health and family planning services that are not abortion. What I had to say was longish, but I was actually pointing out the many social problems that would result if abortion were to be outlawed. You didn't really refute any of these things, you actually just kind of ignored all my points in favor of calling them a mill. Also, even if we outlaw abortion, they will still happen. They just won't be safe anymore. I don't really want to be explicit on how this actually happens though because it's really pretty terrible. It wouldn't be helpful to describe these things. As far as the word "mistake" goes, I would just like to point out that it is both (usually) a mistake and a consequence. These are not two mutually exclusive groups as you seem to suggest.
 
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I think so too, celticwar. I don't know why people make the argument that they don't experience any pain, when they don't really know for sure. Plus, even if they can't experience pain, they still might be having some sort of horrific experience we can't really understand from the outside. I already put up four links that suggest that they really do experience pain. He didn't say anything back yet.
 
I think so too, celticwar. I don't know why people make the argument that they don't experience any pain, when they don't really know for sure. Plus, even if they can't experience pain, they still might be having some sort of horrific experience we can't really understand from the outside. I already put up four links that suggest that they really do experience pain. He didn't say anything back yet.

Of course they know for sure. Medical science knows the range where the developing unborn can start to feel pain. More than 90% of all abortions take place early in pregnancies before they do. And they develop awareness even later so no, they are not aware and not in pain.

And for the much less common, medically necessary abortions, anesthesis is administered by injection, or just a lethal injection is used.

In case you didnt notice, one of your links requires a subscription, 2 discuss fetuses feeling pain around 20 weeks which is waaaayyy after most abortions take place (as I just wrote) and the last one is an unsubstantiated opinion in a biased pro-life magazine.
 
Yes, I read your longish screed in it's entirety and my comments stand. As long as we allow abortion mills this issue will persist and some will take things too far. And yes, you seem to think characterizing conscious action that everyone in the world knows may cause pregnancy, as "a mistake" - that IS writing the script, changing the language.

That's not a mistake, it's a consequence.

Yup, that's not dehumanizing at all, calling kids 'consequences' but that seems in line with using those kids as punishment, as in, 'they wanted to open their legs, now they have to take their consequences.'

Nice :roll:
 
Could you provide a link to the research?

At 20 weeks, a fetus feels no pain and the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed before that. The ones that are done after 20 weeks are medically necessary

Does a Fetus Feel Pain at 20 Weeks?

JAMA Network | JAMA | Fetal Pain:**A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence

I think so too, celticwar. I don't know why people make the argument that they don't experience any pain, when they don't really know for sure. Plus, even if they can't experience pain, they still might be having some sort of horrific experience we can't really understand from the outside. I already put up four links that suggest that they really do experience pain. He didn't say anything back yet.

Like your concern about fetal pain, your thinking about my opinions is based on nothing but propoganda (of which your links are good examples). In order to feel pain, or have any sort of "experience", an organism needs to have developed the neurological system to support that and aborted fetus do not have that developed of a system.
 
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Medscape: Medscape Access
Unborn babies can feel pain during abortion
http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/
Expert Told Congress Unborn Babies Can Feel Pain Starting at 8 Weeks | LifeNews.com

There is some research here that suggests that they actually can feel pain. Also, it isn't just about pain, necessarily. You don't really know exactly what they are experiencing when they are terminated. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution when we don't really know?

Appears as though you're looking for something that you want to believe rather than seeking out genuine facts. You'll not find facts but rather propaganda from Pro-life Sites. If you choose to believe these sites, then you'll be choosing to either ignore REAL scientific facts or deny them.

Most abortions are performed 12 weeks and under. Actually about 60% of that group is 10 weeks and under (the size of a kidney bean). None of the stages of development have the brain development necessary to feel pain or be self-aware.
 
Yes, I read your longish screed in it's entirety and my comments stand. As long as we allow abortion mills this issue will persist and some will take things too far. And yes, you seem to think characterizing conscious action that everyone in the world knows may cause pregnancy, as "a mistake" - that IS writing the script, changing the language.

That's not a mistake, it's a consequence.

More fantasies I see.

Hip Hip Horray for abortion mills... :shrug: Of course any rational, logical thinking person doesn't consider an abortion clinic a "mill" of any kind.

You want to continue to dwell in the realm of authoritarian dogma and believe it's morally correct to deny women Constitution rights equal to men...have at it. That is called CHOICE. Unwanted pregnancies are just that. Women don't need a reason or answer to anybody if they CHOOSE to have an abortion within the parameters of the law.
 
So If one were to give you evidence to the contrary... would you change your position?



.... didn't think so, you wouldn't care if they experience unbelievable pain.
Yet with believable dishonesty you did not supply any.
 
The issue in contention is NOT about abortion.

Abortion, the second oldest profession occasioned by the oldest, will go on no matter what happens with legislation or judicial decisions.

The issue actually is about making the procedure as safe as possible for the woman in whose body the pregnancy is taking place.

Why don't the anti-choice people finally get off the stage on this. This train has already left the station.
 
Yet with believable dishonesty you did not supply any.
???

I never said anything that I would.

I was just stating it would be pointless because it would not convince the person I was replying to... If they said yes, it would change their opinion, than I would supply evidence.
 
So you only made a stupid unfounded assumption?


No... If they said yes, it would change their opinion... I would try to supply as much evidence as I could... but, Why go through that if the person doesn't care either way? As I suspect... he can tell me I'm wrong of course, saying his opinion would change....And I'm fine with that.
 
The issue in contention is NOT about abortion.

Abortion, the second oldest profession occasioned by the oldest, will go on no matter what happens with legislation or judicial decisions.

The issue actually is about making the procedure as safe as possible for the woman in whose body the pregnancy is taking place.

Why don't the anti-choice people finally get off the stage on this. This train has already left the station.

The real challenge is developing effective birth control such a new implant technology now underway, which last for up to 15 years and is programmable to be turned on and off.

I personally would like birth control distributed to every woman (and man) on the planet for "FREE". The savings to societies would be significant in the long run.

Prevention is the gig for me. I think if Pro-life really wanted abortions to end they'd want to invest in prevention...not condemning women for having irresponsible sex. The Puritan thinking isn't working.
 
No... If they said yes, it would change their opinion... I would try to supply as much evidence as I could... but, Why go through that if the person doesn't care either way? As I suspect... he can tell me I'm wrong of course, saying his opinion would change....And I'm fine with that.
Perhaps you can show where "they" said no, because till the it still remains an unfounded assumption and baiting.
Now had you any interest in an honest exchange you would have supplied evidence, but sine any reasonably well informed person does know that an early term fetus can not possibly feel anything, you chose the dishonest route.
 
The real challenge is developing effective birth control such a new implant technology now underway, which last for up to 15 years and is programmable to be turned on and off.

I personally would like birth control distributed to every woman (and man) on the planet for "FREE". The savings to societies would be significant in the long run.

Prevention is the gig for me. I think if Pro-life really wanted abortions to end they'd want to invest in prevention...not condemning women for having irresponsible sex. The Puritan thinking isn't working.

Sounds like a great idea.

Unfortunately, some of the people who are the most strident anti-choice are also people who are the most strident anti-artificial contraception.

No please those people.
 
Perhaps you can show where "they" said no, because till the it still remains an unfounded assumption and baiting.
Now had you any interest in an honest exchange you would have supplied evidence, but sine any reasonably well informed person does know that an early term fetus can not possibly feel anything, you chose the dishonest route.


I am waiting for the response... I did make an assumption, it's up to them to say whether I'm right or wrong... I am not going to extend the conversation until I know whether One cares if the fetus feels pain or not in reference to abortion(whether it is a determinant factor if they support it or not)
 
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